I reserve hugs for family and close friends. I don't do social kissing. Whatever happened to handshakes? And what form of greeting is next? Copping a little feel and then a bigger one, No, "inappropriate" is the correct word.

I've drawn my line in the sand and my friends do respect it.

They're off, and my guess, reaching middle age? or older?

"Inappropriate" means not suitable or proper in the circumstances. For me, it remains the perfect word to use if a friend/acquaintance tried to lip-kiss me as a greeting.

And what form of greeting is next? Copping a little feel and then a bigger one,

*****

Boobie honking?

"Inappropriate" sums it up perfectly. Legally, it might be lip assault.

I have a friend who is also a client who, as he has aged has gotten worse and worse about his sexual innuendo, capping it off recently with his opening my coat so he could get a look at my chest. Actually touching me. Up until then it was just relentless "jokes". But when he did that, with his wife standing there, I told him to knock it off, that it wasn't fair to me or to his wife and to stop. she also yelled at him. Then, over the phone, I asked him why men feel like they have a right to women's bodies, to make those jokes, etc. , i.e.: just TAKE what they want. I told him it would be the same if I, as a woman, made constant "jokes" about his wealth (he's very wealthy), and wanting him to give me some of it...I said, 'You'd get sick of it and feel it was completely inappropriate an that I was crossing a line into an area that is none of my business."

He agreed and finally got it.

But it does seem like men feel they have a right to "take liberties" with women, even in "benign" ways. The male version of a female "gold digger", IMO.

Oh so wrong! It's presumptuous that you (or anyone else) would return such. A brush on the cheek is even more than we interchange with close friends, even same-sex friends. Hugs, yes, all the time.

Do their wives try to kiss on the lips with men?

I dunno, a small number of my parents' friends, the women would go for the lips, and I think their husbands did the same thing with women. The women would go for my lips, too.

I think it's overly familiar, but I think "inappropriate" in the most current sense of the word, sexualizes the gesture, and I am not conceited enough to think that just because someone wanted to kiss me on the lips that they were testing me out to see if we could jump in the sack together. On the rare occasion I've gotten that vibe from anybody from something that was couched in a social gesture, I knew it, and it wasn't the lip contact in and of itself that was my clue.

Again, I don't like it, I've had more people kiss the hairline at the back of my neck or shirt collar because I pull off to the side, but I really don't think it's inappropriate just because I don't happen to like it. Nor do I read anything deeper into it, --they're really not that into me, to paraphrase.

But it does seem like men feel they have a right to "take liberties" with women, even in "benign" ways

*****

It's abuse, plain and simple. I agree about older men-they have "dirty old man" syndrome.

Oh, he's old, just let him be. Don't be mean to him! He's not hurting anyone!

Yeah, these DOMs count on it.

I'm not used to seeing kissing on the cheek around here, let alone people who aren't a couple kissing on the lips. The "Would they kiss another man this way?" question was a perfect way to put it in perspective.

None of these would qualify as dirty old men. (Though I have definitely seen that with older relatives, ie senior citizens!) I think they just find it pleasant with people they like. As I said before, it has only happened with men we knew fairly well, ie have been out socially as couples a few times or more. These are men I like, too. I just think of mouth kisses as too personal and most agree.

I am also heartened that a lot of people aren't even crazy about social kissing generally, even on the cheek. I used to think I was a bit weird!

I was thinking about it, and even among my kids, only my youngest kisses us on the mouth. It's sweet. My oldest is a cheek kisser (hello goodbye holidays even good night a fair amount of the time). My middle one is an air kisser. We sometimes give her a peck on the cheek when she is unawares just to tease her.

ETA

"Would they kiss another man this way?" question was a perfect way to put it in perspective.

Actually, that does not help, because the men don't do the cheek kiss either. It is man/woman or woman/woman. Though there are a lot of those pat--on-the-back-bro-hugs, which I kind of like seeing. It seems more evolved to me --- if we are all hugging and kissing, then men should do more than shake hands.

I haven't experience that, and it would make me very uncomfortable. A few friends as well as my family kiss on the cheek, and that is fine. I can't imagine DH ever trying to kiss another woman on the lips.

I noticed @ my sons middle school that the girls would greet each other with a hug and/or a kiss on the cheek..I don't think anyone in my middle school did that. It would be interesting to discover when the cheek kiss came in vogue, especially among young teens .

Yes, I've seen girls in MS and HS do that.

I thought this thread was going to be about making out/PDA. - Which I think is inappropriate.

It's not the norm around here and I'm not comfortable with it. My friend's bf (not from around here) did both my cheeks the first time I met him. It was common for him and he was trying to be polite, but it caught me very off guard. I can't even imagine how odd it would have seemed if he would have pecked me on the lips. And I know DH wouldn't have been pleased.

I'm more of a hugger, but that's only for close family and friends. My parents will still kiss me on the cheek at times, but truthfully I'd be ok with just a hug from them too.

Tibb - Actually touching me.

Meaning he touched your coat or he actually touched your chest too?! Oh my! Either way, you kept it together very well!

I see men, especially those under 30 hugging each other hello and goodbye all the time, now, and that would have been considered really "inappropriate" when I was in college, or just out of college. Times change. And that may be an urban thing, as well.

I think there is a lot of real estate between someone who has way different feelings about personal space, and someone who is being sexual, a dirty old man, or abusive, and one of the things that bothers me about modern society is the quantum leap from one end of the spectrum to the other. I don't buy it, I think Mtn would know whether this was sexual or not, but it sounds like a number of you are ready to assume it's all sexual. Meh. Some people are just touchy feeling and it can be creepy if you don't like it--but they aren't necessarily potential rapists.

It's just that a kiss on the lips is really...like...in your space in an unusual way and doesn't have much of a social/cultural history behind it to support it. Especially given unasked or to an unwilling recipient. I think there a big difference to go from two cheeks to swapping spit. Is it arrestable, no. Is it something I would feel rude fending off? No. Where I would feel rude fending off a cheek kiss (or three) or brief hug because it's customary.

Also the kinda creepy disinhibited late midlife crisis overly familiar older guy pain is real. I think they may be determined to prove they're not losing their virility. It's on the spectrum of predatory behaviour but just mildly. I've noticed it in gay (my friends) and straight circles and I'm sure there's a female equivalent. I'm not subject to it much personally due to being not conventionally attractive/made up and being confident/brusque but I certainly observe it in personal and professional circles. I almost find it more poisonous and prevalent in gay circles b/c there's still this lingering idea that men can't pressure/assault other men so it's almost like the guys have liberty to ratchet up the pressure.

I'm really excited that most kids these days are being raised with concepts of active consent - something that would no more have been taught to me growing up than flying to the moon. You were just supposed to close your eyes and guess what the other person was ok with!

Well, that's a straw man argument, plimpsest. No one implied that an unwanted kiss on the lips would indicate ill-intent let alone rape, for chrissakes. Not at all, so I don't know where that's coming from other than sheer hyperbole.

At most, it was implied that some of these men might be getting their jollies by taking liberties where they know damn well they shouldn't. And, doing it because they think they can get away with it.

Kissing on the lips is an intimate act and anyone, man or woman, would have to be socially challenged to not "get" that.

I wonder if pal's male gender makes this a bit more difficult to understand from a woman's point of view. Not saying it does - just tossing that out there as a possibility.

ETA: And yes, what mimipadv says about kissing on the lips being an intimate act is so very true. This is not to imply that it's sexual (think of a mother kissing a child on the lips - wasn't it Victoria Beckham who was photographed kissing Harper thusly?), but its intimate nature means it's not the appropriate greeting in most social situations.

I get that a man might not understand how offensive, intrusive, invasive and upsetting it can be for a woman when a man makes unwelcome contact or advances, especially on the lips.

I think this thread perfectly illustrates the difference men and women can see/experience unwanted touch. Women say we don't like it, man saying it's no big deal. If we don't want it, regardless of intent, it's inappropriate. And no man can tell us differently.

Most women have had a number of experiences where they felt uncomfortable because of sexually-charged words or actions of a man. Recoiling against unwanted contact is not an overreaction, nor is it conceit. It's a conditioned response to a line being crossed.

>Women say we don't like it, man saying it's no big deal. If we don't
want it, regardless of intent, it's inappropriate. And no man can tell
us differently<

I'm a man, and I posted against it.

Social kissing is not en vogue in my area and you can count me as one who is glad of it. I do know some huggers, but that is not even my normal inclination. Too much physical social contact gives me the willies. I have always found it interesting how different cultures/subcultures define personal space. In parts of the southwest where I live now, that distance was traditionally the length of a horse, no need to stand closer. I do not need quite that much space, personally, but it is an interesting measure.

I am a man and I have stated it makes me uncomfortable.

I didn't interpret that Mtn was picking up a sexual vibe, though. and yet a man using this to "fish" for a potential sexual response, "dirty old man" and "abuse" all showed up in subsequent threads.

I don't think that it's a straw argument that Mtn is talking about social and physical boundaries and not about being propositioned or molested.

And men can potentially be the receivers of unwanted sexual advances.

As far as "inappropriate" across the board and under all circumstances. False. Obviously this varies regionally and socially. It is obviously Not inappropriate in some social milieu unless there are dozens of silent victims in Connecticut that have been kissed on the lips by the man or men that Mtn is talking about, because he's obviously gotten away from it before.

I get it. A lot of people don't like it. I don't like it either.

But my argument is that this thread was not about being sexually propositioned, felt up, the victim of a dirty old man, or abused. It was about social and physical boundaries. Being sexually propositioned, felt up, the victim of a dirty old man or abused is a different thread. And people are trying to turn this thread into one about that. and its not.

And I think it's kind of interesting that only women could have had a number of experiences where they have felt uncomfortable because of sexually charged behavior by a man and that this is a conditioned response. Does that mean that most men can't have experienced this either at the hands of women or other men or does it just mean that men usually welcome sexually charged behavior no matter where it comes from? I think that is pretty ignorant and sexist that you think the men in your life are either so base or so clueless.

As for it being Unwanted, I get that. But just because it is Unwanted does not mean that the original intent was sexually charged. I just don't want some people to touch me. At all.

Wow, yuk. My children go to French schools and this doesn't happen ;-) On the other had, DH has had his bottom pinched by a mother.

I didn't feel that this behavior was anywhere on the continuum of abuse at all. I would not describe these men as lascivious or creepy. It was not that big a deal to me, I just found it curious.

I can't imagine my husband kissing my friends on the lips and probably not on the cheek either. Maybe a quick hug, if that. I'd be stunned if I saw him lean in to kiss one of our friends on the lips and I'd be questioning what else might be going on! Lol

I'm extra protective of my personal space and don't even like hugging others outside my immediate family.

Lip kissing is just so unhygienic. I don't understand why that doesn't cross their minds.

I find it curious that you know a number of men going in for that kiss....Your husband must be right ..You are a hottie !

Seriously, do these men kiss all the women in the room ? Are the men all in the same subgroup ?

You suggested going in for the cheek first to head them off.. Not going to work ...Don't give them the option to turn their head and catch you on the lips :)

I like the air kiss ~ gives the endearing factor without sharing my lipstick .

I think the problem is though, that it is in a situation where one is accepting a social hug and possibly a social kiss on the cheek or air kiss as acceptable.

So the kiss on the lips is just a matter of an inch.

I don't think this is about kissing someone on the lips when that person is standing there rigidly holding out their hand for a hand shake or clearly trying to avoid All physical contact.

I must pretty clearly be able to impart when I do not want a hug or a kiss because I am sometimes the only person in the group that does not get one. The kisser or hugger is able to read body language enough to realize that they shouldn't do it. Then they either hold out their hand or give a sort of half hug. Most people can read it.

The confusion lies where you are open to a social hug or kiss (which is commonplace in my area under certain social conditions. That is when some people will kiss when all you want is to hug, or go for a kiss on the lips when you are expecting an air kiss.

And this is where subtleties are lost. Most people can read a full-on "stay away" signal. But what the kisser, lip kisser, close talker can often not read is the subtlety of "a hug is okay but that's all". Because the unwanted kisser, lip kisser, close talker often has trouble reading subtleties or they wouldn't do it.

I don't think any of mtn's friends are abusive (unless she feels abused) but I can see where guys of a certain age feel fun n' flirty sort of exploring or pushing social boundaries. And that can get or feel creepy at times depending on the relationship and the people involved. Anyway it's a gesture I wouldn't mind forestalling if I didn't like it. I think there's a big psychological and social difference (more than an inch) twixt cheek and lip and everyone knows it including the kisser! but I also don't think it's reason to call out the Garda.

4boys, I never noticed what they did with others. My question was prompted by an event this past weekend. Now having given this a lot of thought, I think the evening (a dinner party with a bar, if that matters) went this way... Meeting someone for the first time, you shake hands. Greeting someone you have met before, they get a hug and a kiss on the cheek. The subset of men who gave me a quick peck on the lips were people we had socialized with before a few times, and whom I would call "friends".

No no and no! Ewww no. I would not even do that with my sisters husbands. And they are the closest male relative I have. I don't like the kissy kissy stuff at all. I will do a hug with a good friend, now with family we definitely do big hugs. My husband's family never did any of that. I would definitely think it awkward and step back and offer my hand which he can either shake or kiss lol.

"The irony of this to me is "that the same region of the country well
known for it's rudeness and abruptness is the place where I have
experienced the most social kissing whereas when I was in a culture
where people were much more polite to strangers and generally calmer
overall, social physical contact of any sort was minimal."

Agreed. I live in an area where there isn't even social cheek kissing. I once traveled to a particular part of the east coast and there was constant cheek kissing. I'm not sure if it was the large circle of people I was in or the area; nonetheless, it blew my mind a little. :) I thought it was slightly charming, although I'm not a touchy person. As for social lip kissing? There are some (extroverted) women who have lip kissed me as a greeting (mostly my mom's generation...).... NEVER men who I'm not dating. I like the suggestion of turning your head and saying, "that's only for my husband" to softly draw the line.

No way in hell would I want some guy I socialized with a few times kissing me at all. But I consider someone like that an acquaintance not a friend. You might be more friendly than I am.

As someone who recently recovered from a two week cold which required antibiotics, prednisone, and narcotic cough syrup, along with having a separate virus at the same time, which caused dizziness for two weeks, (I still have a stopped up ear), I don't want anyone to kiss me.

I do kiss my grown sons on the lips, just a short smack, because of the intense love I have for them, and they have no problem with it. And my grandkids.

Don't hug me either unless you are a close friend. This hugging stuff between acquaintances has gotten out of hand.

The only time a male kissed me on the lips outside of my DH, was a couple of years ago when some old friends and I got together and a picture was being taken of the group. He quickly kissed me so it would be in the picture, in front of his wife! We all laughed, but I nearly died. I didn't even know his wife either. Awkward! But I didn't mind, he was still hot. ;)

I find cheek kissing extremely phony for some reason. It means nothing if you do it to everybody. I do kiss my SIL hello and goodbye because we're BFF's. It comes naturally because we truly love each other.

My MIL used to kiss me and it drove me nuts. I never got used to it.

It's flu season, tell every one to bug off. Just kidding. Not really.

I live in an area with a mix of ethnicities and English and French Canadians. The biggest question that arises is whether the round of hugs and cheek/air kisses will be 2 or 3 kisses, and on which side it will start. A false start could result in an inadvertent lip kiss;). Seriously, I do not recall social lip kissing other than as a child. If at risk, I would try to find a gracious way to avoid it.

I've never seen this except on the Housewives shows where it seems to be an acceptable form of greeting.

Cheek kissing only for friends and extended family. Lip kissing is reserved for husband and quick kisses with children.

I don't think I've ever had a friend try to plant one on my lips unless he was drunk and knew exactly what he was doing, lol (and that was long ago).

Nope. Not happening in my world. I am primarily a hugger, though a few of our friends kiss on the cheek. I can't recall being kissed on the lips by anyone other than my DH or DD (or my dog) in recent years!

Unless you count Mtn. She really laid one on me when we met in July.

LOL SueB. I knew you were the kiss'n tell type! Haven't you heard "what happens in Seattle, stays in Seattle?"

I read the OP and asked DH what he thinks. He's 72 year old and knows how to behave in public. He said "Usually in my circles, we be out there with the fist bump." (My funny white guy with not a prejudiced bone in his body.)

OK, haven't read all comments yet, but this made me recall my own family upbringing. My father's father & his siblings were all Londoners born in the Victorian era & always greeted us kids w/ a kiss on the lips. Now I realize that is a very Victorian behavior, but @ the time I just thought it was a little strange, but accepted things as they were, as kids do.

But as to grown men that are NOT my hubby - just ick! & in this day & age of 'superbugs', I would most definitely opt out. I like the idea of quickly turning one's head to the side in defense.

Also recall my sister telling me about one of my parents' quite distinguished elderly guests trying to stick his tongue in her mouth during a clutch @ a holiday party - & this was when we were in high school.

I had to post a coda after a middle school sporting event I just attended, I got three hugs w/ kisses on the cheek from Moms, and one from a MS'er friend of my DD's. One dad shook my hand, and another Dad kissed it! I had to laugh at that after all this discussion here.

Mtn, you are not off, they are. Kissing on the lips is not an acceptable social norm. I have encountered this and turn my cheek. My husband is the only one who kisses me on the lips.

This reminds me of a "Modern Family" episode where a cute new neighbor kissed Claire Dunphy on the lips with each greeting and she was convinced he was crossing the line but Phil didn't seem to see this as a big deal. It wasn't until Claire found the new neighbor funny and made her laugh that Phil got jealous. And it turns out the neighbor kissed everyone - his kids, his mother, etc on the lips. It meant nothing untoward.

Okay, well maybe that isn't particularly relevant, but to the question, I would find kissing on the lips with friends (male or female) awkward regardless of how my DH felt about it or how innocent it might be. I might try to to gain control of the situation by quickly initiating the cheek kiss routine.

Keep us posted how this plays out :)

I'm in the Bay Area. We tend to hug everybody all the time. I know one woman who kisses and I endure it, but wish she didn't. She's needy. Close family is okay, but I don't want to kiss or be kissed all that much.

I get kissed on the lips by two people. One is dh's boy cousin and the otHer is a woman friend. Both in their eighties. When it first happened, I was inwardly shocked but I now take it as a sign of warmth. I am an air and cheek kisser to close peeps and I get responses in kind. Can't tell who is the initiator. Handshake and a smile in my circle. In your situation, as long as there is no tongue. Just kidding.