The contractor had told me, 'you should trays these heaters, you can get much more efficient ones today, these are old' so we weren't careful during renovations and they were removed. I'm not sure how damaged or not they are now. They also would need to be painted, so it might be worth it to replace them for that reason.

I certainly would replace them if it would reduce the chance of fire (and I could use more of my space without worrying so much about how close/how hot/fire or kids putting their hands in there and getting burned.

So - I was wondering if there have been any advancements?

More effecient? NO,not one bit. Safer? Yes,on both considerations ( clildren and fire safty) Oil filled doesn't increase energy effeciency but slightly equal's out warm and cool areas within room. You are still overlooking the fact a single mini-split in one room will carry much of the demand in adjoining rooms. Are aware that one mini-split can be equiped with delivery units in multiple rooms? The question you should be asking yourself is, how long it takes for a heat pump or MS to pay for it's self in energy savings. The answer is not long and your utility company can tell you almost exactly how long. Then there's natural gas which is a huge improvment over baseboard heaters. Even propane can be a wise investment, how wise depends on local cost of delivery.

Ok, well, the units aren't very expensive so seems like I can justify new ones (and not have to paint the old ones.) Do you know how they are safer, fire-wise? (The plain coil ones, or the water filled ones or both?)

I have four zones - to my understanding, you don't want more than three delivery heads per unit, so it would require two heads (and the more units that are attached, the less efficient those models are). The units themselves aren't as expensive as installation. It was a while ago so I don't remember exact numbers but my three quotes were in the $10,000-12,000 range. That would take a long time to make up - especially when the electric heat is only supplemental on the coldest of days (which you also need with mini splits). I have a vented kerosene heater.

I'll admit I didn't research heat pumps because early on I read either they weren't proving to be very energy efficient, weren't performing up to expectations, required ducts - or something (I can't remember).

Can you clarify your natural gas/propane comment? I don't have central air/ducts and my house doesn't have room for them (a professional HVAC guy's opinion, not mine), nor does my town have natural gas. Is there a baseboard heater that runs on propane, without a furnace and without ducts?

I'd love to get rid of them! But I'm not sure there's a better solution than the vented kerosene heater + baseboards that I already have. ?

Any professional HVAC guys out there?

You need to ask retailers for brochures to see the latest safty features on electric strip heaters. Around here kerosene sells for over $5 per gallon so most anything is cheaper to use. I've installed ducts for heat and air in about everything besides a shoe box so you must have one strange place. I don't blame you for not jumping on the wagon at $10k-$12k for a ms. That is a complete central system price. A sharp diyer can install a ms but alot of contractors royaly gouge customers for install. Check out Amazon for mini-splits and a local handyman for install up to the point of about a $200 start up by an ac tech. Do you not have need for cooling during summer months? I suggest you go by the local propane dealer to discuss ventless wall mounted infrared heaters. If you qulify for assistance that might get you over the hump to installing a better system.

Zellycat, you never said where you are located. When I was considering heating cost, I got a cost comparison chart for Vermont, and propane and electricity were about the same cost. Natural gas was cheaper, but not available in my area. Oil was also a little cheaper, but I wasn't interested in the hassle of deliveries. Wood was the cheapest.

Mini-splits ARE heat pumps; heat pumps use electricity but since they are transferring heat from colder to warmer areas, they are inherently more efficient than resistance heaters, which is what your baseboards are. I would suggest you consider one mini-split with the maximum number of heads (3?) and plan to use it as your primary source of heat. A baseboard heater and/or the kerosene heater could be used as backup or when the mini-split is inadequate. Of course, the mini-split gives you cooling as well as heating, which none of these other options do.

Klem, when I looked at mini splits, it sure seemed like installation prices were disproportionate (gouging). Are you saying an AC guy should be able to install it for $200?

I'm in western CT

The three head units would leave a room undone, so installers were saying I would need two units to get four heads. My lot is small and on a hill so I think they also were concerned with where to put the condensers. I didn't love the idea of having to clean snow off of them in the winter, nor of how the tubing looks outside the house, nor how the units themselves look in the room (nor the sound of air cycling on and off).

But, I do need cooling, so ... if installation can really be as low as $200 for a three head unit ... I might have to look at them again.

Paint what you have and keep it. Your situation is so unconventional there's simply too many issues to overcome to use anything else.

Zellycat,

What is your reason for making these changes? I would do a Mini Split over anything else in your situation. The mini split system for a Quad zone would be where I would start. Are you handy? To be honest, my handyman and plumber have installed these for their homes in just a few hours. People all over the world install them without a lot of the constraints here in the US.

In the past, Minisplits were not charged with refrigerant but they have started to change that. I think the Fujitsu and Mitsubishi now come precharged. The HVAC installer is usually needed to charge the unit. Any HVAC company will charge you a flat fee of roughly $200 to charge the outdoor unit.

Installing a Minisplit has several components, the electrical work for the mini split and then running the two small lines, refrigerant and condensate lines back out of the head units installed inside the home.

If changes cannot be made, I agree with Klem that keeping what you have is the best option. Do you have AC now?

The heaters were abused during renovations because my contractor (erroneously) told me to trash them because they are much more efficient now. Argh.

I don't have AC currently, so if install is much cheaper than my quotes, I'd look at them again/see what other vendors say. So I should ask a plumber and electrician? What should I hope each would charge? Would I need to understand the install to coordinate it between the two? (My handy man hasn't done one.)

It is unconventional - it's a small house but with four rooms built into a hill, no closets, and a closed cell spray foam cathedral ceiling (so no attic).

I'm also going to check the price of kerosene.

Thanks for the insight!

klem, thanks for the suggestions. Were you suggesting ventless infrared wall heaters as the main heat source instead of minisplits or in combo with them?

Zellycat,

Will you be able to drill a 3" hole for the minisplit lines into your home? Here is a thread from Greenbuilding Advisor that discusses installing mini splits. Also, the link to eComfort has the install guides for the units for your review.

Well if you can't find a place to set a ms condenser,there's little chance of accomindating a propane tank. At any rate,you wouldn't need anything to supliment infrarad propane wall heaters,them buggers can really haul the mail in any weather.

Green building advisor is my favorite! Thanks for the link, homepro. Klem, I didn't realize those were run by propane I'll have to check them out, I don't know anything about them.

I may find someone who thinks they could make the minis work here. Estimated guess on a reasonable install price per head using electrician/plumber/handy guy? (Again, quotes were $5,000/head).

The cost to install would be reasonable at around $2000 for all four head units. This is consistent with all the information that I have seen about the level of effort required to complete the tasks. I have friends who work on HVAC systems.

Another analog is the Tankless water heater that I had installed. The plumbing company wanted $2000 to remove the existing water heater and install the new tankless water heater. My plumber installed the unit for $700 and electrician installed the outlet for $150. The longest part of the installation was the vent through the roof.

Good luck in researching the best option for heating and cooling your home:-)

Wow. That is just a huge difference in installation price!

Ok. I just finished reading a GBA article on minis. It's definitely another research quagmire, especially in my area where most contractors are firmly rooted in the "I've been doing it this way for 20 years" mindset so I'd have to understand it pretty well myself.

Even if I go with minis, I'd still need back up heat, right? (So maybe I'd still need baseboard heaters).

Klem, I searched infrared heaters a little bit - is there a particular unit I should be reading about? (They didn't seem to be used for a whole house.)

It's getting colder and I have zero heat hooked up right now, so ... opening and closing the windows to let in and trap outside heat will only take me so far - I have to read more quickly!

So thanks for the help.

Nope. You will not need backup heat with the minisplits. The models I linked from Fujistu do both. You need a heat pump model of the mini split. Fujitsu and Mitsubishi make great heat pump models that go down to -20 degrees I believe.

You have tons on reading to do very quickly Zellycat:-)

Yes. I wish GBA could just send someone to my house. I'd rather not have to become an expert, it's pretty frustrating.

Anyway, I just checked kerosene prices here and it's $3.60/gallon and my heater is routinely used in Alaska and supposedly wicked excellent so I might be able to do a final coat of poly, get that back in since I'm already set up for that and buy myself some time to research other options.

Back to work, thanks.

Zellycat,

Value for money is forcing me to become an expert in things I never had an interest in:-)

Baseboard electric style heaters are extremely inefficient. Even the new ones. I had bought one of the portable style ones when I first moved into my house because I wanted something quiet, let me tell you that my electric bill noticed and I noticed my electric bill.... then I returned it. (I have since solved the various problems and don't need separate heaters, but I digress)

You are better off getting a portable quartz infrared heater they are much more efficient and better at heating also. Not very loud either. If my furnace went down I could probably heat the whole house with it on all the time on low. The 1500W heaters are best run on their own circuit if you are using the high setting. Running it on low allows you to use other things on the circuit without going over the limit on the breaker.

Ok. I'll add it to the list to check out. Is quartz the brand name? Or a different type of infrared heater?

I believe it is involved in the heating element, not a brand name. Various types out there. Here is an example.

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Infrared-Heater-Portable-1500-Watt/dp/B002QZ11J6

Electric heaters are all 100% efficient in transforming electrical energy to heat. The delivery method and effectiveness can make a big difference in comfort.

Purely infrared heat has no fan/blower and heats objects (including living bodies) more than air. It is like standing in front of a fireplace or a fire pit. Convective heat uses no fan, but the natural movement of air when a temperature differential is added. Add a blower and this similar method can often put the warm air where it is more useful, but the blower uses energy and makes some noise. All are effective ways of delivering heat and you have to choose the best for your circumstances. Some, maybe most, heat residential emitters have a mixture of the above. Common fin-tube "radiators" are really more convectors. Cast iron radiators, baseboard or upright, are more towards radiation. (The proportions also depend on the temperature of the emitter in question.)

If you have baseboard electric you first need to consider if another fuel is more economical and if it is worth the capitol investment to improve that situation. If so, heat pump mini splits or a ducted central system can be considered for heat/cool or hydronic heat for heat only. Low temperature performance for heat pumps has improved dramatically in the last decade making it possible to use in colder climates. For heat only ,you could also consider propane-fueled, direct vent, wall hung heaters in some rooms.

Research indicated that I was not going to get more efficiency out of newer ones.

All electric resistance heaters are 100% efficient. It's just a very expensive heat source. You can get more compact and better looking baseboard heaters now but they won't be any more efficient than older units (providing the fins are clean).

I was in a similar situation. Old home from the 60's. Installed a new woodstove, fixed chimney etc to keep my baseboard heating costs low.

Whats the most efficient depends on the times. Natural gas if available, Propane, and oil prices fluctuate. It's a roll of the dice. Wood is always the cheapest but labor intensive. Coal if its easily available. Pellet is an option too, but you need to store enough, wood, coal, or pellets somewhere easily accessible. You need to either hire, or clean your chimney and stove yourself. Here's a tip. You ain't getting' any younger. Choose your battles wisely. What if you throw your back out? Then what...

Mini splits. Here's what I found. Efficient? To a degree. -20? Nonsense. More like 36. Real world numbers here. You have to run an electric heating element to the coils so when they freeze, you can melt the ice. $$ Then if you're smart, you make sure you build or have built, a shield of sorts to keep the elements off it. If there's a snow drift, you better get out there and clear it by hand. Some will bolt it to the walls to keep it off the floor, but you can't go that high and awnings only do so much. Think about it. The machines need to be serviced.

Lets talk a 10 year ROI here. Warranties, such as offered by Mitsubishi, require a licensed professional to come out and service it once a year. $$. If you don't pay, you lose the warranty. How nice. You could gamble and risk it all...There goes my savings over a 10 year period. You either need to buy, or clean the filters. Anywhere form 1 to 3 of em annually depending on model. Replaced eventually if you clean them yourself. Cost of installation? Ridiculous. Run electric, upgrade your panel, run ugly line sets and condensate pipes all over the place? Bah. THE ONLY WAY you could save money is if you knew someone in the biz to cut you an install deal. Other than that you'll pay 10K on average. I got quoted $5k for a single 18K unit. $10K on a split system running off a 36K unit. Run the numbers and you'll see its just not worth it. How much money can you save over a 10 year period will yield an ROI that just about equals out. Clearly a waste of time and effort. That's whats its about. Peace of mind. Baseboards = zero maintenance other than a vacuum cleaner or a coat of paint. Heck. My wife can do that.

Companies/Businesses/People can and will say ANYTHING to convince you to empty your pockets. Its unethical yes, against the law, no. Leave the baseboard and have some peace of mind. You'll pay inflated costs over time or drop thousands at once and HOPE that you found a contractor worth his spit.

Mini Splits. BAH. You can't escape paying. No one can. One way or the other they're gonna get you. The smartest guys in the world have run the numbers. The system has been set up. Its the working class that pays. Not the poor, Not the rich. Remember that. Choose the path of least resistance and don't' let these jerks fool you. Everybody hates math. You just have to do it. When was the last time you heard someone say they love math...That's how they get you.

"Coil size, amperage, etc will fall on sadly deaf ears - with math involved I won't follow it. If possible, please, descriptions are better such as 'the coils are now bigger' or 'they use a different metal so it does x'."

Minisplits are coming down in price since Mitsubishi introduced their DIY system. I can't see them requiring "professional" annual servicing on a DIY install, to maintain the warranty. This will drive professional installer prices down as they now have some serious competrition (homeowner installs).

Hi zellycat2, I was wondering what you ended up doing or finding, I am in a very similar situation as you were and questioning whether it's worth it to update the electric baseboard heaters or not. Thank you.

A few comments, since my first 4 years ago. Electric baseboard heaters have several advantages: low initial outlay, 100% efficient, silent (if they don't have fans). Disadvantage - electricity is probably the most expensive energy source. Mini splits (heat pumps): you get cooling, more efficient (greater than 100% because they move heat from a low temperature source to a higher temperature, that's why they are called heat PUMPS), cheapest to operate. Disadvantage - expensive purchase and install, requires maintenance (will increase long term operating cost), might be a little noisy, takes space outside and inside. Anything else requires burning something, which is less green, requires venting, but may be very quiet (I have a natural gas boiler which is very quiet, but it's on a 125 YO system with no pumps or blowers).

Many of your commenters have said that it's not worth changing/upgrading your baseboards from an efficiency point, but not very expensive and may improve the look.

Hi mtvhike from your comments I gather that in the end there's pros and cons with each system and neither of them is a no-brainer choice over the other, is this correct? At this point I would only be willing to invest in a heat pump if it was FAR better from a $ savings stand point.

I cringe when people say that electric baseboard heaters are 100% efficient. If they are, then heat pumps must be 300% efficient since they produce more heat (BTUs) output per watt of power input.

I think what people mean when they say that electric baseboard heaters are 100% efficient is that "nothing gets created nor destroyed, but merely changed in form". Since electric baseboard heaters don't have moving parts, don't make noise, nor do they emit light, 100% of the electricity they use is converted into heat. OK, there are losses as with everything, but I would guess that at least 99,8% of the electricity they use is converted into heat.

Are some models more efficient than others at directing the heat they produce towards the room, I don't know, but I would imagine that most of the heat is directed towards heating the room.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

I think the statement that electric baseboards are 100% efficient is correct, and indeed, heat pumps are several times more efficient at the task of inputting heat into the room (this is called the coefficient of performance, where 3X COP equals 300% efficiency). They're not creating energy of course, just moving some from outdoors to indoors and 'concentrating' it (or upgrading it).

But there's a separate question of effectiveness, which is more subjective. A light bulb is also basically 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat, but no-one would claim that heating a room with a dozen 100-watt bulbs is usually effective.

Why does this relate to baseboards? A cheap baseboard is basically just a toaster wire with some shielding around it and a simple thermostat. But more effective, comfortable heat may come from a bit more attention and work on having better design of fins for air circulation, possibly materials that absorb some heat and radiate it to the living space, lower-temperature operation both for comfort and safety. Newer and more expensive baseboards may have better controls, durability and cosmetics/design; they may also use different materials for the heating coil. Safety standards also improve over time so relative age a factor.

This makes it hard to give a simple answer to the question 'is it worth replacing my baseboards.' If they're really old and aren't comfortable and are ugly, maybe so. But replacing cheap somewhat-old ones with the cheapest on the market today may not be much of an improvement.

A parallel note: since baseboards tend to be the simplest and cheapest solution, and anyone wanting to really improve their heating system might jump to a minisplit or a whole-house a/c and heating solution (getting air conditioning in the bargain), I'm not sure that the offerings for electric baseboards are all that great - i.e. not sure anyone makes 'high end' baseboards, or they may be harder to find (cheap ones are very inexpensive, and who's going to spend ten times more even for a really nice baseboard heater?).

Of course, everyone here is talking about electric baseboard heaters. There are also hydronic baseboard heaters, also called radiators. Hydronic heaters of any stripe give a more even heat and will not cause a fire (some electric baseboard heaters in poor condition can get so hot that a misplaced piece of paper could ignite!).