Stay above it. Queen Bee is keeping her own log. The follower types in your work place might agree with you but can't be trusted with any comments you might make on QB.

Imagine you have a bubble around you to keep her out.

There is a good chance QB will be there a very long time before karma comes.

I've had two QB's in my life and both times it came back to bite them badly. However, QB's are pretty durable and almost always find another hive of little followers and sometimes even keep one or two from a previous hive.

I know it's easy to say but try not to let it eat you. Stay above it.

You need to ask yourself what the QB is getting out of this. The answer is probably jollies from making others uncomfortable. She's a master manipulator. If you don't react, she'll find another pond to fish in.

I have thought long and hard about what she could possibly be getting out of it, and I think with every effort to control a person or situation, she feels a sense of power and importance that is otherwise lacking in her life.

That is really sad, isn't it?

Staying above it is vital. And so very, very hard to do. :-/

Boy is it ever hard. But you know if you get too involved in it ...it means you might have some things in common with QB. Imagine the big bubble. It doesn't let bees in.

I've told the superiors with whom I've discussed these issues that I'm extremely wary of being viewed as a "petty woman" who can't get along with others, or of even the remotest of possibilities that I'd be seen as somehow jealous of her. I've been assured that neither of those things are the case, but I'm still very cognizant of the potential for misperception.

justerrilynn

Boy is it ever hard. But you know if you get too involved in it ...it means you might have some things in common with QB. Imagine the big bubble. It doesn't let bees in.

*********

Funny, this reminds me of the character Ted in Scrubs. He did the "boing fwip".

Yep. She targeted my work alright. I implemented a change to a process and (to make a long story short), she went behind my back and invented a line of BS about why it wouldn't work (when it had already been approved), and talked her superior into reverting back to the original process. It was all very underhanded, and very upsetting to others who were affected by the de-implementation of what I'd orchestrated.

I'm quite sure that this stems from a couple of other decisions that I have made as a team leader. When those decisions were announced, she instantly threw out reasons why we should just keep to "the old ways" and not try something new (which will actually be much more efficient and sensible than the old ways), and we butted heads. She saw an opportunity to slip around behind my back and undo my work and jumped on it.

I intend to be cordial and professional, but there's no love lost here and I don't want to play games and pretend that there is. I like that icy stare. I can do that. ;-)

Oh, do the Stepford Wife smile. That slight closed-lip grin that politely says "f*ck you sideways".

LOL!

I'm confused, is she also a team leader but in another department?

If your plan was approved but QB reversed it isn't that a bad management problem?

I'm wondering if she WANTS to be the Queen Bee but knows that she isn't and that she never will be.

JT: Yes. And yes.

Sorry - If I could go into greater detail, this would make much more sense, I realize -- but I can't.

blfenton - I suspect that her behavior stems from a place of deep insecurity and uncertainty, and yet what comes out instead is extremely egotistical and downright conceited. I do know that "normal" people at least exhibit some humility when they want to brag on themselves, but with her, it's completely nonexistent. It's like there is a missing filter or something. I do think she's managed to convince herself that she is QB, although I think somewhere in the recesses of her mind she wrestles greatly with feelings of inferiority.

That would be a really hard person to get a handle on when dealing with them.

You can always do what my DH does....I tell him what I want him to do, he smiles, nods and then goes about his own business anyway.

:)

Google working with narcissists. Most people say eventually it's better to get distance from people like that than let the stress ruin your life.

Oh my gosh, yes, I've had to deal with my share of QB's before. Both personally and professionally. The way I've handled it is to be very frank with them-say "QB, I understand we must work together, but know that I have no intention of being your friend, nor will I accept any undermining or backstabbing from you. We both have jobs to do here and I think it's best that we stay out of one another's way so we can do what we're paid to do." Then walk away.

It is not easy to do that, but as you've said, you don't want her taking up any more space in your head.

At work we've been directed to work through a program by Steven Covey called 'The Speed of Trust'. One of the main things it talks about is the cost to business when trust is not there. QB's definitely exhibit trust tax, so your job is to be as honest and truthful as you can be. She's never going to like you-and that is HER problem. If you're a valued member of the team, one who does not tax the company, you'll be fine. And more importantly, management and your coworkers will come to believe in a trustworthy person.

Has QB been there a long time? Is she being protected by upper management for some reason (e.g., a relationship within the company)? Does anyone really like her?

I wonder why she's able to behave as she does without consequences. Does she have something on someone?

I would tread carefully and, whenever possible, take the high road. Be civil, pleasant, and otherwise give her a wide berth. Otherwise, I'd want to punch her in the mouth.

Fortunately I don't have any colleagues like that. I work with fantastic people. We have dismissed those who aren't. I feel very blessed.

Narcissists are insecure which is why they behave the way they do. I have a good friend who's a Narc and I did a lot of reading on the subject.

They do like to be in control and are notorious in disagreeing with others, hence the Queen Beeotch constantly under-minding you. :)

I like all the advice given to you. Say nothing else and just be kind while biting your lip.

If you're lucky, you'll get to witness what I did. I worked at a bank and there was a similar Q.B. that no one liked. The bank had a very long lobby. A co-worker and I were in an office with large glass windows that looked out onto the lobby.

I looked up, and Queenie was walking from one end of the lobby to the other, and believe me, was a LONG walk.

She was a heavyset woman (nothing wrong with that), and had on a dress. However, she obviously just came out of the restroom because the whole back of her dress was tucked inside her pantyhose exposing it ALL.

My coworker and I (good friends too), were in shock and immediately fell to the floor under the window where no one could see us, and laughed so hard tears were coming from our eye's! If it was anyone else we'd run out there and help. God forgive me, but I couldn't help but laugh. Someone did tell her though.

Best.comeuppance.ever.

"This crap makes my blood pressure spike too. I've internalized this for a very long time, and keep having to come back to the place where I remind myself that Queenie doesn't get to live rent-free in my head."

I worked for The Boss from Hell for 8 years; he was forced out (finally) and now that the experience is history I have thought about this dynamic. The best advice I got was from my father who is a former military officer and retired assistant dean of admin (in higher ed, as am I) who said to me 'put your head down and do your work'.

I would add as a former HR coordinator that the mantra of 'we can't control attitude, we can only control actions' is key. It really doesn't matter about how the QB makes you FEEL. Any office is set up with a chain of command. The higher ups make decisions, and they are responsible for how those decisions are implemented. So what I'm saying is that as tough as it is to do, you will be happier in the long run recognizing that our work is not ourselves and that your paycheck reflects the agreement that you do YOUR work during the work day....let the rest of it go.

I speak as someone who quite literally couldn't get up and go to work for several days at one point because I was so shattered by Bad Boss' management. I spent years furiously dealing with decisions that were wrong in spirit and result. I lost sleep, I stressed, my marriage was affected and after it all ended I came to understand that BB did me a favor because now I am much more clear on the limits of where I have to be spiritually and what I owe the place that provides me my livelihood.

There are always going to be people who we find irritating and who seem to act in ways that are designed to be spiteful and negative. It's simply not worth trying to spend one's emotional and professional capital to battle them. Put your head down and do your work. And if your work place superiors make choices you think are wrong and damaging, speak up when asked but otherwise let the ones who call the shots reap the rewards or the damages.

Last but not least, I also wouldn't waste your time and mental energy trying to understand or label this colleague--again, this isn't a relative, or a friend. This is someone you have to work with and truly it really doesn't make any difference whether she is a narcissist or whatever label can be applied. As you say, quit letting her take up space in your mind, it just is not worth it.

Best.comeuppance.ever.

*****

Putting it on Youtube would have been the cherry on top.

(nope, wouldn't do it, but it would be sweet)

LOL, Oakley! That is pure greatness! I think I've mentioned before that we watch Joyce Meyer's program, and this morning she spoke about praying for one's enemies, and even asking for them to be blessed. She pointed out that "blessing" doesn't necessarily mean that they'll get a promotion (or a new car or a nicer house), but perhaps they'll be "blessed" by having their eyes opened to their behavior. I have to think that even an exposed-backside comeuppance might have been a roundabout "blessing" of a sort. ;-)

Linelle, QB has been here for many years (but I've been here more than twice as long), and yes, there is "protection" because of a relationship. Therein lies the real problem and if management won't manage the situation, then it's up to me (and others who also suffer at her hand) to learn to deal. That's what I've been trying to do for quite some time, and am still getting a handle on it. It isn't easy, but I am making progress.

Neetsiepie, that kind of frankness doesn't come easy to me at all but I'm coming to realize that there are situations in which it becomes an absolute necessity. I think most of us women have been conditioned just to "be nice" and "get along with others", but there comes a time when we have to realize that's just not going to be possible with everyone.

I've been thinking back over my 36 years in the workforce and while I've worked with a handful of people who have made me roll my eyes due to their incompetence or slacker tendencies -- and I worked with one woman who talked entirely too much and drove me up the wall with her constant chatter, but she was a kind, sweet soul so I found it easier to overlook -- I've never before worked with someone that I felt would "do me dirty" given half a chance. Perhaps I've been quite fortunate that this has only come up now, after many years of being surrounded by wonderful coworkers.

Thank you all for your input. I don't want to simply be reactionary, but want to have a firm plan in place for how I'm going to deal with this as time goes on. You've all helped me see things even clearer, and I appreciate it.

Ida one thing I have felt helpful in dealing with untrustworthy colleagues is to send a quick email after any meeting detailing decisions come to in the meeting and actions to be taken. At that point if the person doesn't respond or disagree, you've got a really good paper trail. Of course we take minutes during official meetings but I'll send even after a standup. Had to start this when a coworker was going through the 'change' and would become angry and defensive when she forgot things we had agreed on. Felt bad for her but don't take it out on me!

PS it's been a week and I haven't gotten an email back about the lie.

Good idea, robo.

I have learned to limit my emails to facts only. She has a strong tendency to get "butthurt" and on more than one occasion has attempted to maneuver an email discussion into emotional territory, where she wanted to play victim and (I presume) have others rush to nurse and stroke her ego. I've actually been quite proud of my ability to respond in total clinical fashion ... in fact, on one of those occasions, someone else who was a part of the email discussion noticed it and commended me privately for it. ;-)

Yes I spend a lot of time carefully crafting emails in those situations. Possibly much more than is warranted. I think I have the very polite tone down.

Do you all find that working with a lot of women is a bit hard? The best job I had was working for professors in the school of business, and I had two other women working with me. It was perfect, and easier to get along with.

At the bank I had a horrible experience. A lady I knew because our kids were on the same soccer team took me out to lunch about a month or so after I started working. I was the only part-time worker there, my hours were 9-3. I was able to take the kids to school and pick them up.

While we were having lunch she asked me what made me want to go back to work, and I was honest since I thought we were kind of friends, and said the hours and the pay, and stupid me mentioned what I made.

That afternoon my boss called me into the office and told me to shut the door. Uh oh. lol. He asked why I told people my salary and I said I didn't. Then it dawned on me that my so-called friend went back to work and told the whole loan department, full time workers who had been there for years, that I made more money than they did! He understood thank God.

The rest of my tenure was very uncomfortable because everyone (mostly women) knew they started me at a high salary. I can't help it if I'm special. LOL

Runninginplace - best advice ever.

Yes, good advice from Runninginplace, and RiP - I am so sorry about your miserable experience. It does sound like you learned a lot and developed some excellent coping skills, though.

I absolutely do keep my head down (oh, believe me, I keep my head down!) and do my job to the best of my ability, so that's already covered. There must be regular interaction with QB, however, and that means she's going to be on my radar in some form. I understand that I'm the only one who can control how much of an affect she has on my life. That said, the negative feelings that arise in a person when another person is abrasive to the Nth degree and a situation is patently unfair are normal and a part of our defense mechanism as human beings ... So how does one effectively quash those feelings and that inner dialogue and simply get on with it?

One more thing. I would avoid any email responses to her or about her. Especially about her. Emails live forever. I know, because I've kept some for years, just in case. Eye-popping, jaw-dropping. I've had good friends--sensible people, allies-- accidentally (I'm hoping) forward something not meant for another directly to the other. Ooops.

Be careful, if she is protected by management and takes a greater dislike to you, could your job be in jeopardy?

Well, in the ordinary course of the job, I have to email with her routinely. Generally it's entirely work-related, but I do know not to engage in or be sucked into any games she might be intent on playing. I've seen what happens when someone else did "go there" with her, and it wasn't pretty. You are right about emails living forever, though.

RA: I doubt it, but I still believe it wise to tread lightly, measure my words appropriately, and at all times be the consummate professional.

I dealt with this for years and I really feel for you. I appreciate all the words of wisdom in this post because guess what? My QB thankfully took another job and has been gone for about six blissful months. But she hates the new job and has been lobbying to come back. I have ignored messages she has left for me to call her but she left another this morning.

I used a combo of Running, Neetsie and Robo's advice to cope. Most of all, I put my head down and produced good work. I protected myself with follow-up emails to prevent future "misconscrewments", and when necessary, I very directly said, "knock it off and go away" while maintaining icy eye contact. I would just mention, in passing to my boss "hey, I had a situation where I told QB to knock it off, just FYI". I made myself a very polite, professional, difficult target.

"Do you all find that working with a lot of women is a bit hard?"

No but I find that tired and nasty trope is hard to read as well as misogynistic and misguided; let's please not do this.

I love working with women.

I love working with men.

Just as long as they aren't arseholes.

;-)

Cattyles - yep, I like your style. That's what I'm endeavoring to do in my own situation, and I definitely have made mention of the "encounters" with QB to my supervisor, who is sympathetic.

I know how totally exhausting it is, Jen. I get the feeling that like me, you have a hard time even believing someone would put so much energy into being an arsehole, lol. And it's like Running was in my head! Yes, I read and researched and tried to figure her out. But holy hell......why?

Im pretty sure my QB is coming back,. We will be each other's support. We shall survive! Hugs and fist bump.

Oakley - I manage a clinical department that is equally male and female. Both can be difficult and exhausting or delightful and energizing. In my 2 1/2 decades of experience, the only time someone actively tried to aggressively cause me professional harm it was a man.

I bucked the bee and she got fired. I felt very validated. She was very unhappy with me, but all I did was stand up for myself. I wasn't vindictive at all.

Oh and the "butthurt", gah I hate that!. She even had minions that would let me know I had "upset her". I would simply not acknowledge any of it by changing the subject and having a pleasant interaction without any personal comments whatsoever. It's hard but it works.

Buck you, Bee! I love it. :-)

I do think that completely refusing to engage is the most appropriate response. Once you so much as argue back angrily, the QB has you where they wanted you all along. I think there has simply got to be a very fine art to walking the high road at all times, but still maintaining an assertiveness that makes it known that you will not be trifled with.

I have found that many times when you finally "have to stand up to someone", they generally back down. But yes, refusing to engage is best.

Tina, that's very true of my own QB. On the rare occasion when I have stood up to her, she instantly seems to fall onto her back with her feet in the air, those legs a-kickin' as she backpedals. It would almost be humorous to watch that happen, were the whole thing not so darned infuriating.

If HR is useless and management is afraid of Queen Bee or seems to back her up even in her craziness, then the other thing I would do is polish up my resume and keep an eye out for a new job. If HR and management won't deal with the QB problem, then unfortunately the problem is much larger than QB, and isn't terribly likely to improve. There are some good tactics above for trying to deal with QB, but I know that the day would come when I would hit my limit on dealing with her, and I would want to have other options already in mind. You might still run into other QBs in other workplaces, but in other workplaces management might not be so unwilling to deal with it, and that would be a big improvement.

Goodness RIP, I wasn't trying to start anything. I've worked in offices with only three women, myself included, and a lot of women. My personal experience is when there are many women together, that's when things get sticky. Women are different from men with their emotions.

This is an interesting read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/worldviews/2012/04/30/why-women-are-the-worst-kind-of-bullies/#69de388147f4

I found this paragraph the best advice.

Report to your superiors and make it a business case on how the bully is affecting your productivity and driving up absenteeism. The minute you talk about how emotionally traumatized you are, you’re unlikely to get any help.”

"My personal experience is when there are many women together, that's when things get sticky. Women are different from men with their emotions"

And of course your experiences are your own, just as everyone else's are. What I objected to is a blanket query about whether groups of X are difficult to work with--if one applies the polarity test it's an offensive view to me. Are groups of black people difficult to work with, or groups of Muslims, or groups of gay people? It's just a nasty theme of thought.

And from what you have shared online, your experience of working professionally is limited to several brief clerical positions decades ago before leaving the workplace and never returning to paid employment. It's a bit of a stretch to extend that to everyone working with women in the professional arena.

' your experience of working professionally [appears to be] is limited to several brief clerical positions'

What do 'clerical positions' have to do with your analysis?

Oooh, this thread is now taking an unexpected turn.

Back to the main question: dealing with a Queen Bee. Yes, been there. I too worked in higher education - as someone else above - in a right-hand-man position to the institution's CEO. For 30+ years. I dealt with many Queen Bees. (Granted, their contact with me was not quite as overt because of the position I held. But their true colors were very clear and I was able to deal with them with my eyes wide open.)

The best remedies I discovered over the years have already been listed: keep your head down and do your job; limit contact and never voluntarily talk with QB about anything at all, no matter how trivial; document, document, document and cc the higher up's; kill them with kindness; and one more, promoted by my DH: don't get mad, get even. Gotta be careful with that last one, though - he works in the private sector and I believe that mantra may operate better there than in the public realm.

One of our worst QBs was promoted way beyond her capabilities (think Peter Principle) and she finally hung herself. The last straw was when our Faculty Senate presented a Vote of No Confidence in her to our governing board. It took a while for her to hang, but when she did, she went down in flames. Many, many people were gratified.

"What do 'clerical positions' have to do with your analysis?"

In many organizations clerical positions tend to be jobs with much less autonomy and authority in the organization. So the folks who work in those positions often, and unfairly, are not treated very well by colleagues and supervisors although they often are people who literally do the majority of what gets done well in the company.

So....my analysis is that judging what it means to work collaboratively with an entire gender may be colored if your experience is limited to working for brief periods of time in jobs that often seem to result in suboptimal behavior by others in the organization.