Right angles (or relatively sharp bends) in plumbing

macgyvers2000

7 years ago

Putting up framework in the basement, and it's finally time to deal with the HVAC lines...

Two of the three units in the house are in the basement, and to make the best use of space down there, I will be relocating them. Since this means they will be disconnected, I plan to use the opportunity to reroute the plumbing into more appropriate spaces behind planned bulkheads.

So, the real question is, what options are available for sharp(ish) turns? I will just assume they will replace the plumbing completely rather than try to flush. Bending is one obvious option, but due to multiple bends in a (relatively) small area, I worry it cannot be done with a single piece of tubing... but I'll ask whomever shows up. Is it common in residential to swage joints for such circumstances?

Thanks.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (10)

geoffrey_b
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
PEX is quite flexible, maybe can eliminate some bends.

There are also:

Long Turn copper ell
weedmeister
7 years ago
which 'plumbing' are you talking about? The copper lines carrying refrigerant to the outdoor compressor or the lines draining away condensate?
Related Discussions
Adventures in limb bending
Q
Comments (14)
I used lawn clippings from the neighbor all last summer for a mulch. It worked great and there was narry a weed poking through including bindweed. By Oct or Nov the grass was reduced to nearly nothing via decomposition and worms. The only thing my neighbor did to his lawn was water, mow and fertilize. My trees, from 2nd leaf to mature did well. My primary concern is with the nutrients the grass clippings no doubt supplied, particularly late season N. This year I started by putting down about 2" of chipped small diameter local tree trimmings courtesy of Asplundh. Next comes the grass clippings. I live in a climate that ranges from very dry to very wet depending on the year. Last year was very wet, this year is extremely dry so far.
...See More
Sharp Microwave Draw
Q
Comments (20)
I love the idea of the microwave drawer (our 9yo DS uses our counter-top microwave, and I don't want to replace it by a high one, and yet would like it off the counter. However, in addition to the price, my DH and I have three remaining hesitations about the Sharp drawer: 1. the automatic drawer open/close mechanism . Our appliance store showed us a broken display model, and said that if you pull or push on the handle, that will destroy the automatic open/close mechanism, at a repair cost of >$300. I may be able to train my family to just use the button, but since there IS a handle, someone's going to use it sometime. Is that still an issue with the newer models like KB-6021MS that say "opens with a gentle push or pull of the handle". 2. No turntable Does it heat food evenly? Some people on Amazon swear by it, but a few complain that you have to keep opening and stirring. 3. Capacity. 1.0 cu ft is a lot smaller than the 2.0 Panasonic beast we have now, ... even though the Sharp's even wider. If I want to reheat a few peoples' worth of pasta, sauce, meatballs, will it fit as easily as I can now reheat 3 covered bowls on a turntable? (It may be that most of our current capacity is the unused height and corners.... but I'm just not sure). Since this is both expensive and "built-in", we really want to know it'll be useful. (I'm so glad to read that any dried-on spatter can be steamed soft. So I can stop worrying about that.) Thanks! It sure is nice to be able to ask real folks, not just a salesperson or a brochure :-).
...See More
2 Part Tile Questions: Tile Grout Width & Right Angle Cuts
Q
Comments (2)
1/16th versus 3/32nds, I hate to say this, but it's up to you. You do good work. you're conscientious. If your wall is flat, if you have good trowel technique in terms of keeping a steady angle as you put thinset on the wall so you put an even amount of thinset on the wall, you can probably get good results with 1/16th. The tile is rectified. That's good. Your wall is flat. Doubly good. If the tile is flat, which it should be, you should be triply good to go. I like a Felker TM-7 blade. Sometimes cross-branded under Husqvarna, but it's a Felker blade. I use it for hard porcelains and even granite. It's my favorite go to blade with porcelain. When cutting inside "L" cuts, I have a moving table saw. I'll slide the table forward, cutting into the tile. When I get to my stop line, I'll rotate the front edge of the tile (the end away from me) up into the blade, keeping the rear edge of the tile (next to me) "hinged" to the fence of the sliding table. It squares the cut. I get a nice clean inside cut. The larger the tile, then sometimes the less you can hinge the tile up. If need be, and it's usually not, I can clean up the inside 90 with the light touch of a grinder. If a picture is worth a thousand words, let me know, I'll post a photo.
...See More
Bending Copper Pipe II
Q
Comments (21)
As Sircuts@freeshell.org has already pointed out, I too can think of dozens of reasons why bending copper pipe is not a good solution. It has been mentioned that the inner wall friction of a bend is less than a fitting, which is true of factory made long radius bends where the pipe is bent in specially designed jigs prior to the tempering process but such is not the case when field bending copper. First of all it should be thoroughly understood that no bend in copper pipe should have a radius less than 10 times the pipe diameter. (Many local codes limit bends to a minimum radius of 20 x pipe diameter). When pipe is bent in the field two conditions happen that ultimately weaken the pipe. On the inside of the radius the pipe is compressed resulting in crosswise ridges similar to those on a corrugated pipe. (I appologize in advance if my description offends anyones sensibilities) When a pipe is field bent the outer curve of the radius is stretched leaving microscopic stretch marks similar to those seen on a womans stomach after a tough pregnancy. This also results in seriously weaking the pipe wall. We are then confronted with an increase in turbulance from the inner ridges reacting against the weakened outer wall and the end result is premature pipe wall erosion thus while a factory formed long radius bend will reduce line friction a field bend actually has much more friction problems than what would be seen with a fitting. While bending pipe may appear like a simple task ask any electrician who runs EMT and they will tell you first hand that bending pipe is not nearly as easy as it might look. There is a small loss of linear footage when forming a bend and when making back to back bends on the same piece of pipe it can be rather tricky to compute the necessary lenths to compensate. Obviously the interest expressed in bending copper pipe is a result of the reluctance on the part of homeowners or DIY'ers to solder but I am sure that Sircuts and Brickeye will agree with me that in the hands of an experienced plumber soldering joints can be made much quicker than figuring out the layout of bending pipe for a tight application. In fact, with a bit of practice you will find that soldering is easy and nearly as fast as fitting and glueing CPVC or PVC pipe. To answer Shw001's question, if you are working in a really tight location it is doubtful that you will have the necessary clearances to get the minimal radius for your bends. Although I would certainly explore all the other options first, understanding that you only need a short two foot section you might find it much easier to use a corrugated copper flexible water heater connector to go around the obstruction however this should only be done providing the work will be in a non-concealed location.
...See More
geoffrey_b
7 years ago
Copper has been used for water - about the last 60 years.
macgyvers2000
Original Author
7 years ago
Sorry, guys... the refrigerant lines.
macgyvers2000
Original Author
7 years ago
To (perhaps) clarify the intent of my original question...

Is it unreasonable for me to request the installer use connectors/swaged joints to make a more "form-fitting" run of the refrigerant lines?

I know the line is sealed from the factory and nitrogen purged to prevent oxidation/contamination, but in the past I've seen that used as an excuse for not doing anything outside of the ordinary. The current path of the line would require me to create multiple bulkheads across the basement that are unnecessarily large to hide it, whereas a couple of 90 degree turns would clean things up considerably. I have sweated thousands of joints for water and soldered many tens of thousands of electronic components... but I've never brazed refrigerant lines, so maybe I'm ignorant of pitfalls involved in doing so in a residential environment.
geoffrey_b
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
"Is it unreasonable for me to request the installer use connectors"

Nothing is unreasonable, if you are willing to pay for it.

For A/C probably 95/5 solder is good enough, I don't think they have to be brazed.

I'd say that you should mark the route, and let the installer handle the details. I don't see what swagging has to do with making bends.
macgyvers2000
Original Author
7 years ago
"Nothing is unreasonable, if you are willing to pay for it."

Absolutely, and I wouldn't think otherwise. I'm willing to pay for the extra time/materials... but I'd be unwilling to pay a "premium" over and above that simply because the work is not "standard". I'm just trying to verify this type of work is not relegated exclusively to commercial jobs, that I have a hope of the residential folks doing similar mods.

My research so far of 95/5 is a mixed bag... some say it's okay, others say it's too brittle and will eventually crack. The suggested path by many seems to be towards Stay-Brite 8.
Vith
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-x-7-8-eighth-inch-2-in-1-tubing-bender-94623.html

Tubing bender, less joints to solder. Works on 1/2 and 3/4 lines. The home stores have pipe benders for smaller sizes as well. A trick from the reviews says to lubricate the pipe where you are bending it to help it bend easier.
geoffrey_b
7 years ago
@macgyvers2000: "My research so far of 95/5 is a mixed bag"

You are making this conversation a total waste of energy.

Don't be a micro-manager. You need to trust the installer. People micro-manage because they don't trust.

IMO you are wasting your time trying to second guess many aspects of your project.
macgyvers2000
Original Author
7 years ago
geoffrey,

YOU brought up the 95/5, not me... I have no idea what the installer will use, but I'm not sure how me doing research on items you suggest translates to me being a micro-manager (it's me reducing my ignorance of a particular product or method). I'm researching possible directions so that I may make a more informed decision rather than barraging the installer with impossible/impractical requests. But if you feel answering such questions is a waste of your energy, you're certainly free to ignore them.

Vith,

The issue with a tubing bender is it requires room for the length of tubing beyond the bends... in my case, it follows 40' down a set of I-beams, hooks behind an immovable object (think of it as a box I have to thread through, then juts out another 4-5'. If the line was completely flexible, I could push it past the obstacles and be done... but once you make a bend, you're set with the length of tube beyond that bend (hopefully that makes sense). My thinking was soldered/brazed connectors or simply swaging the tube in a couple of strategic places around the obstacle, allowing for 2-3 separate pieces to be used rather than trying to bend a single tube in an impossible manner.

BTW, had a guy out here to discuss the plan. He said what I had in mind was not a problem. The furnace is moving closer, so he'll just trim back the line length, and since it's already cut, add in a few tight bends and cut/swage if/where necessary. The heat pump is moving farther away, so it will require a new pipe... same situation, just with a new pipe. He's also going to do a simple cut/reroute in a similar manner for the third heat pump.

Nutshell, I get what I was hoping for,and it will significantly clean up the space so I may continue my framing.

Thanks for everyone's comments/help.

Right angles (or relatively sharp bends) in plumbing

Comments (10)

geoffrey_b

weedmeister

Related Discussions

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000
Original Author

macgyvers2000
Original Author

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000
Original Author

Vith

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000
Original Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Right angles (or relatively sharp bends) in plumbing

Comments (10)

geoffrey_b

weedmeister

Related Discussions

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000Original Author

macgyvers2000Original Author

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000Original Author

Vith

geoffrey_b

macgyvers2000Original Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

macgyvers2000
Original Author

macgyvers2000
Original Author

macgyvers2000
Original Author

macgyvers2000
Original Author