Need help choosing central heat/AC system

8 years ago

I have a 2700 sq foot ranch with basement (1350 up, 1350 down) which requires full ducting and all components to be installed. Currently we have no AC and the heating is the horrible ceiling sandwich radiant heat. This also means there is no ducting. For purposes of this discussion the basement will be left as-is (likely going to simply place a single ductless option there later on), and we will only be focusing on the upstairs. Gas is not currently run to the home (Portland, Oregon), but the gas company will run it for free so not an issue.

I have this quote :

-Supply and install a new Bryant FV4C Preferred air handler with a variable speed blower motor in the attic

-Supply and install a new Bryant 225B Preferred 15 SEER heat pump, pad, coil and lineset

-Supply and install properly sized and secured flex supply and return duct work in the attic

-Supply and install a new condensate system for the heat pump

-Supply and install a compatible Honeywell programmable thermostat

-Supply an electrician to connect the new heat pump and air handler to the existing circuit panel

-Start-up, test and adjust equipment

-Supply HVAC permit

Change both panels into to one full size main breaker panel $1,565.00

Total Investment $14,398.00

Total Cost $15,963.00

(this provider said to make this quote for the gas equivalent units instead of electric units it would be ~2500 more)

------------------------------------------

And then this quote:

 Installation, labor and material to install new furnace and air conditioner system in attic with new

platform to be built with catwalk to pull down ladder access

 Drain pan with water safety switch and condensate drain line to location TBD

 New Gas line from meter to furnace location (NW Natural to determine cost and location of meter)

 New Rheem Prestige 96V 60k BTUH gas furnace with 2-stage valve and Variable Speed Blower (ECM

motor), model #R96VA0602317MSA. Qualifies for State (up to $352) and Federal (up to $200) Tax

credits

 New Rheem Classic Series 2 -ton13-SEER Air Conditioner, Model #RA1324AJ1NB

 New Rheem matching indoor evaporator coil and new in-line filter dryer with outdoor unit installation

 Honeywell VisionPro WiFi thermostat

 7-supply air vents with high velocity registers and 1-return air (with filter grill) in upper hall

 New clad lite pad for outdoor unit

 Triple evacuate line set and pressure test in preparation for setting refrigerant levels to

specified levels and pressures for optimum operation & efficiency

 All sheet metal transitions and mastic Sealed Joints @ Plenums

 Provide a licensed electrical contractor to wire new furnace, service light, A/C system and service plug

for A/C

 Mechanical Permit (Inspection Scheduling Post Installation)

 Clean Up Work Areas and Use Drop Clothes and/or Booties (As Necessary)

 Rheem Limited Warranty: 10-Year Parts & Compressor (w/Registration Required)

 Ultimate Comfort Warranty: 1-Year Labor and 10-Year Workmanship Coverage

TOTAL INVESTMENT (Approved Scope) $13,118.00

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Obviously these are different units, and the second path doesnt include the switching of my existing panel to a new main breaker. But let's make that cost constant... What I am seeing is a Bryant option option that is going to come in around 3,000-4,000 dollars more than the Rheem option.

My questions/concerns are:

1. Are these units under/over sized for my home?

2. Do either of these quotes look crazy off to you?

3. I am an accountant... Please be easy on me if I forgot to write in some info :)

Featured Answer

tigerdunes

8 years ago

I certainly would not spend $1500 on upgrading my electric breaker for HP systems if gas company will run a line to your home for free.

IMO

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Comments (9)

mike_home
8 years ago
If you can get a free connection to gas then that should be your fuel for heating. In most parts of the country it is cheaper to heat with gas than a heat pump. If you are curious post your electric and gas rates and we can do some comparisons on heating costs.

The first quote does not make sense. If you are going with a gas furnace, then you should not need a new electrical panel. But you will need to run a 120v 15amp line to the attic, but it should not cost $1565. The gas furnace takes the place of the air handler. A gas furnace costs about the same as the equivalent model air handler. But you will have to run a gas line to the attic. So I don't understand why you need to pay an additional $2500 for the gas option.

The Bryant quote has incomplete model numbers. The complete number would indicate the size. You also have no model number for the coil, or what filter will be provided.

The Rheem quote seems more reasonable. It is difficult to judge how much of the quote is going towards installing duct work. Is the duct work insulated and if so how much insulation. Flexible duct work should be R6 or R8 rated unless your attic is insulated. Any change the equipment and duct work could be installed in the basement? It would be much better than installing in the attic.

The sizes in the Rheem quote seem reasonable. It would be best if a load calculation were performed to confirm the sizes since you have no history other than radiant heating.

I am glad to see that the Rheem contractor is proposing a 96% efficiency furnace for the attic. Do you go below freezing in the winter? If so heat tape will need to be installed so the condensate does not freeze.

The Rheem quote needs the coil model and filter. I suggest getting a 4 inch media filter.
Joe Bailey
Original Author
8 years ago
thanks for the response! I apologize, should have been more clear. The first quote was an electric setup, while the second quote was a gas setup. I was informed by the first quoting contractor that the quote would basically go up 2500 bucks if we changed it to the equivalent in gas. Sounds like I should avoid him based on that alone

We rarely go below freezing in Portland OR. Maybe once a year it will even get cold enough to snow and usually its gone once it hits the ground. if it gets down to 32 degrees F its a rarity at best.

electric rate - at avg. 55kwh/day and average per day cost of 6.24, that puts my per kwh cost at $0.11203

Gas rate - looking onlne it looks like my rate would be $0.93513 per therm

I will ask the Rheem quoter for model on coil and filter
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Sorry, I thought by matching we were talking about the refrigerate R-22 verses R-410a in the coils The coils will be First Co. Evaporation coils matching the existing air handlers I have. Apparently there is no AHRI reference number because First Co has not done any of the necessary testing. The dealer had told me this and that the system would not qualify for the tax credit. The third floor does not heat well with the present arrangement. All of the dealers have told me not to expected much cooling on the third floor. I did not question him as to what the "better options" might be.
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You should have a couple companies come out and hopefully do a load calc to determine your cooling requirements (heat gain). You would be looking at supply and return ductwork, an air handler (variable speed preferably), and a condenser (probably 14-15 SEER for your climate). The tax credit of $1500 I read today does not only pertain to replacements but for add-on installations as well, so this is something to ask about. Possible system combos you can research just to give you an idea: Carrier Comfort 13/Performance 15 a/c + FV4B v/s air handler Trane XR13/XL15i a/c + 4TEE v/s air handler Lennox XC14/XC15 a/c + CBX32MV v/s air handler
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Karen You are asking too much as those on the forum can not survey your site. There is a standard procedure in flushing lines. It is done everyday. There is no reason for you to know the details. It is an accepted practice in the industry. For lines that are concealed behind walls/ceilings etc and must be replaced, they are run outside the home and concealed by a plastic cover running from the condenser up to the attic and connected to air handler or furnace/evap coil. Again not very esthetically appealing to the eye but done everyday. It is important though that existing lineset is the correct size to the new AC condenser setup. IMO
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Those are valid reasons and at that cost I would probably go with it, but that is completely up to you. Another way you could look at is: get the Performance 13, and when the furnaces fail replace them with variable speed furnaces that will increase the SEER by about the same amount that you would by going with the Performance 16 models now. There would likely not be a combination rating to quantify any such efficiency you would gain with the new furnaces, however. If you get the Performance 16 now you will have a documented, AHRI matched system with a specific SEER and EER. I am more concerned with what he said about his selection of ADP evaporator coils (which you have been quoted), not ones manufactured by Carrier and designed to be used with their equipment. In a straight cooling application, the ADP coils are not a problem with an indoor TEV (metering device), but I personally much prefer to match manufacturer-manufacturer with split systems. Carrier aluminum evaporator coil model number would look like CNPVP****ALA. This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 11:18
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Joe Bailey
Original Author
8 years ago
coil is a RCF2417STAMCA (hopefully I caught that right on the phone) and the filter is a box filter, close to access point, a 16x20 filter, F100 was the model.

The system size offered was based on a load calc by the salesman as well
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Joe Bailey
Original Author
8 years ago
thanks tigerdunes, ya thats what I am thinking. Plus right now the entire heating system is electric with that stupid sandwich ceiling radiant heat, so if anything I would expect the electric issue to be a net zero issue at worst as all of that usage will no longer exist and will instead be shifted to a gas unit.
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PRO
HVAC Consulting
8 years ago
The most important part of the project is missing. Who did the load calculations and air distribution design so you could get apples to apples cost comparisons? Square footage is only a very small part of everything that needs done before gathering quotes.
Joe Bailey
Original Author
8 years ago
hvac consulting - the providers did the load calc based on info we gave to him. I also did a load calc using some online sources, though I am not sold I was right lol
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mike_home
8 years ago
Here are some cost comparisons for providing 100K BTUs of heat using the numbers you provided:

gas furnace 96% efficiency @ $0.94/therm - $0.97

heat pump 2.5 COP @ $0.11/KWh - $1.29

heat pump 3.0 COP @ $0.11/KWh - $1.08

The gas furnace is almost always going to be cheaper to operate at these rates. Plus if you bring in a gas line, you can eventually use it for the hot water heater, dryer, and stove when it comes time to replace them. This will be additional cost savings. I suggest adding the gas piping to make it easy to connect those appliances in the future.
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Joe Bailey thanked mike_home
elpaso1
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
2 ton seems small for 2700 sf. Here in the SW we do 1 ton per 400 sf.
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