:: With the high price of propane and those electric rates, I would go with a heat pump, hands down. I did a quick fuel cost comparison (with heat pump COP at 3), and the heat pump should cost significantly less to operate. See the link below.

:: Heat pumps, if properly maintained, will have a fine lifespan. The average lifespan of a heat pump is probably around 12-15 years, but I've seen people replace very old, still operational heat pumps that are 20+ years old.

:: Avoid Carrier? Maybe. But avoid Lennox? Not in my opinion. We all have our brand preferences, but the truth is, it's the installer that matters. Focus on finding a good contractor first.

:: Can you post the model numbers/quote information from the quotes that you've received to compare efficiencies of the units? Make sure that the units are sized properly according to a "Manual J" load calculation. This is the true method of sizing units. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise or move away from it. Especially with an old home like yours with a size that's uncertain, this is very important to due. This, in my opinion, holds top priority now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Cost Comparison Calculator

Yes, sorry..... so much info!
Carrier: 25HNA924 2 speed 2 ton heat pump (I've been told twice this is too small) and FE4ANF air handler variable.
$8158 before rebates.

Lennox: Signature CBX32MV variable speed high -eff blower coil and XP15-030 2.5 ton 15.20 SEER 12.50 EER heat pump w/Honeywell T8000 stat. $6970

Rheem: RHLL-MH3617 classic plus X-13 and Rheem RPNL-030JAZ 2.5 ton 15.00 SEER 12.75 EER R-410A heat pump and Honeywell T8000 stat $6043

I'm not sure if they've done the manual J thing - seems it took them a while to quote stuff, no one did it on the spot.

I talk with another fellow about TRANE later today - very interested in hearing his stuff, heard great things about TRANE.

I guess it would help if someone could help me compare apples to apples here - not sure what all those numbers mean!
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Sounds like you're looking at some nice equipment. Any system sized properly should do okay. However, the fact that one is quoting a smaller size throws up a red flag. Someone's wrong. A Manual J needs to be done to determine sizing--ask the quoting companies how they arrived at their size. Trane makes good equipment, but you must remember that everyone is going to promote their brand. Each brand has its pros and cons. Of the options you listed, I like the Lennox, but ask about a Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ thermostat (similar to the T8000 touchscreen, just more features) since it can slow down the blower to control humidity on demand. Rheem makes good equipment, but I suggest looking a the RHKL variable-speed air handler to compare like packages. The RHLL is a high-efficiency air handler, but it doesn't vary its speed like the RHKL can (although it still should do a fine job). The Carrier package is their top-end system, the Infinity System. I am not a huge Carrier fan, but I must admit that this is quite a nice feature-loaded system. You can read about Carrier's Infinity system online, since you're doing online research, at Carrier's website.

shadows

I took the liberty of running some fuel comparison numbers for you with your electric rate, your LP cost/gal, a COP of 2.75( which is conservative) and a furnace eff of 94%.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $2.16
Heat pump: $0.87
Propane: $2.56

A properly sized high eff HP should be able to save you some nice $$$ down to temp balance point and as you can see even electric baseboard is less expensive than LP.

You might want to consider a dual fuel application. Any idea of eff of your propane furnace? you might want to consider just adding a HP and matching evap coil to your existing furnace. But if its efficiency is poor, a totally new system would be indicated and you do want a var speed blower.

My specs for new HP

15 SEER, 12 EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs for cooling and heating for rated size
matching var speed air handler(or var speed furnace if you elect dual fuel)
R410a refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic defrost preferred
thermostat that controls blower speed for superior dehumidication
staged heat strips if straight high eff HP system(not dual fuel)

Insist upon a professional load calculation and get this in writing. Ductwork should be thoroughly inspected as to size, condition, leakages, insulation qualities, supplies/returns,etc.

I personally prefer Carrier(or Bryant) and Trane(or Am Std).

for superior comfort, you might ask dealer about the feasibility of zoning controls for the basement and main floor.

If you elect straight HP system(not dual fuel), dealer will need to check your electric service for handling heat strip backup.

IMO

Thanks - great info so far!
Had electrician check everything over. We have 200 amp service, plenty of capacity. He's told us how he'd get power to where the furnace is now and said we have no issues with our service handling any form of heat. he walked me through the process, showed where he'd run things, talked wire sizes, etc. Since the rest of the basement is all in conduit, I specified I wanted anything new to also run in pipe. the basement is finished, but has "drop ceiling" and easy access.
So far the folks who have been here to give us quotes, that's one of the things they insist on - get a real electrician in here to check the electric and give a quote on wiring and connections. He said he'd even pull someone off another job if we needed to coordinate with installers.

shadow

you want to keep a close eye on correct sizing.

I think a two ton Infinity is a mistake-go three ton and this will help you on heating without hurting you on cooling.

You definitely want a matching AHRI HP system with high EER and high HSPF heating efficiency as close to 9 as possible. The higher the better especially for your location and winter climate.

IMO

www.AHRIDirectory.org

I've started a spreadsheet of comparisons.
The fellow last night said he was going to run some "load calculations" on his computers and get a system size. He said "just looking, a 2 ton is plenty" and "a bigger one will not get the humidity out in the summer because it won't run long enough". I showed him what I was looking into and he did then finally agree, as long as it was multi-speed, etc. that it could run "on low and run more to get the humidity out". I think he thought I wanted to go on the cheap and replace like for like. Nope, I said this is a let's start from scratch and do it right thing.
I won't have the trane numbers until tonight and there are some holes to fill in.

Here is a link that might be useful: spreadsheet comparison of numbers

shadow

make certain pump is paired with correct air handler for best performance numbers.

Infinity 19 HP 2 ton
1250177 Active Systems INFINITY 19 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA924A30 FE5ANB004+UI 26400 14.10 19.00 22400 9.20 13700

Infinity 19 HP 3 ton
077118 Active Systems INFINITY 19 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA936A30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36400 13.20 17.80 36000 9.20 21000 1 HRCU-A-CB 175 524

1076976 Active Systems INFINITY 19 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA936A30 FE4ANB006+UI 36000 13.50 18.20 36000 9.50 21000 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 170 507

1077120 Active Systems INFINITY 19 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA936A30 FE5ANB004+UI 36800 13.50 18.30 33000 9.00 19600 1

Rheem has some very nice numbers for a more moderately priced system. you do want the var spd air handler.

IMO

numbers provided from www.ahridirectory.org

sorry, you sort of lost me with the numbers - not sure what they all are, and only some partially match the model numbers I've been quoted.
Like these, what are the extra numbers?
25HNA936A30 FE4AN(B,F) ->>005+UI 36400

going from left to right

AHRI matching number-1250177, active(current) system configuration, model name along with brand-Infinity 19 HP Carrier, mfg model number HP condenser-25HNA924A30,mdl air handler-FE5ANB004+UI,cooling BTUs-26400,EER eff-14.10,SEER-19.00,heating BTUs at 47 deg-22,400,HSPF heating eff rating-9.20,heating BTUs at 17 deg-13700

these performance numbers paint a quick picture of a system's overall efficiency

I suggest you check the AHRI website

www.ahridirectory.org

>>make certain pump is paired with correct air handler for best performance numbers.Is that what your post was showing - the same HP paired with different coils/"blowers" ??

What is HSVTC? I see some say "yes".
I think I have a better spreadsheet for compares now. Seems perhaps they are not matching equipment? I'm beginning to think NONE of the contractors I contacted are doing things by the book. For one thing, there's still disagreement on size, and they aren't giving me the equipment I ask for, saying "you don't really need that" and so on. Geesh

Here is a link that might be useful: new hvac compare numbers with ARI numbers

Shadowspapa,

Different sizes of fan coils can be sized with the same outdoor unit in most cases to achieve different results (as far as capacity and efficiency goes). With the many combinations available, the highest sales volume tested combination is determined (HSVTC). Hope this clears some things up. Oh, and you're beginning to see the many varying opinions and views of different contractors. I wish they all would agree on a size and application for ease to the consumer, but unfortunately the consumer has to choose the best option and contractor. A load calculation should be performed to determine the correct equipment sizing (even if the old one "seemed to do okay").

Finally got the bids for the Trane systems. This fellow was sort of laid back, shy and all, and I thought, no way, he won't do all the work and research. Shock - he was the ONLY one who furnished me a copy of a Manual j in print, along with ALL the specs including the ARI numbers. WOW. He also said he STRONGLY suggested no more than 2 ton for our home. The manual J came up with a total heat gain of 1.5 tons and had the square footage of our house, windows, etc. in there.
He suggested first a 2 ton outside, 3 ton air handler, with ARI 1106624, 16 SEER, 12 EER, 85. HSPF
then if we wanted larger, a 3 ton hp with 3 ton air handler 1106626 16 SEER, 11.4 EER, 8.8 HSPF
The prices were actually a bit less than or equal to the others because he said "he gets a good deal on the Trane units"

Final thoughts or comments?
Thanks for sticking with me. This is important, major investment. I'll return the favor in an area I actually know more about some day! ;-)

The 2-ton XL16i or a single-stage 1.5-ton unit sounds like the best way to go if that's what the heat load came out to. This "sounds" like a good contractor. What was the price on the 2-ton setup? Did you get a quote for just the XL16i equipment? What about thermostat, lineset, ductwork mods, warranty, etc... was this included in the estimate? Good luck. :-)

OOps -
$6400 for the 2 ton, then take a 700 rebate from MidAmerican Energy,
and $6953 for the 3 ton/3ton then take off 600 for the rebate from energy company.

1 year labor, 10 year "parts and compressor" homeowner has spring and fall maintenance and checks done, then there's an optional 10 year parts and labor warranty for extra $550.
Includes removal of old, clean-up, 15KW aux heat, 3/4" 25' linesets, Honeywell IAQ stat.
He's only figuring 2 people at 4 hours each, though. It would take me that long just to remove the old!

Figures based on 1,180 sq ft main level, plus finished basement, almost all windows new low E, great insulation, good doors, 2 people.

Shadowspapa,

The VisionPRO IAQ is a nice thermostat, but the XL16i can't make use of it's dehumidification feature to slow down the blower (it may allow for overcooling, but in that case I'd go with the TCONT803). This is because the outdoor unit is already cotrolling the BK terminal. It's unfortunate, but the TCONT803 should be a fine substitute. Let your dealer know about this because maybe he has a way around it or has other thoughts--I'm curious to see what he has to say. Good luck again with the decision. I think if you properly size the unit, you're in good shape. The XL15i or XL16i would be my picks (probably 1.5 tons or 2 tons for the XL15i and 2 tons for the XL16i).

That's a great price, by the way. : )

Is there any way to get dehumidification?
One of the problems in Iowa is cool HUMID nights, or even days. We keep the a/c at 78, and when it gets cool, the unit kicks off but hasn't gotten the humidity out. So we have cool humid air, and it's sticky. It's so humid, the air is not clear, very hazy. In the mornings, you can see mist rising from rivers and lakes.
I guess I don't understand all I know about this.

"Is there any way to get dehumidification?"

- A 2-stage condenser is better at dehumidification if sized properly. The more it runs on 1st stage, the better the humidity removal without over-cooling. Ductwork and system sizing is critical.

Good luck.

That's sort of why I leaned toward larger than 2 ton - run it more on the lower stage where the smaller unit might run on high more to keep up.
Bad logic?

I just found the specs on our current furnace. Amana 90 high-effeciency (90) and it's a GUC070B30B and says 65,000BTUH
Wow, how can that compare - these HP units are like 20,000-30,000 BTUH. Huh?

A properly sized unit should be able to maintain reasonable humidity levels (though maybe not at 78 degrees without a dehumidification mode). The dual-stage unit will help control humidity. The only way of extra dehumidification with the XL16i that I know of is with the TCONT803/Honeywell TH8321 thermostat, which will overcool to control humidity. Ask your contractor why he proposed the VisionPRO IAQ when the BK terminal is already in use by the XL16i, thus not allowing the dehumidification feature of the VisionPRO IAQ (which is great as it actually slows down the blower). If you want an alternative that can make use of the VisionPRO IAQ, I'd go with the XL15i. It's a single-stage unit, but sized properly it should control humidity fine with the added advantage of the VisionPRO IAQ. Here are possible setups (ask your contractor what size he would recommend--I would NOT go with a 3 ton for your size home).

Now, there are different air handlers that can go with these units, but the 4TEE3F39 air handler is tall due to the Vortica blower. The 4TWX5024A1000A (2-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F31B1000A yields 13.00 EER, 15.25 SEER and 8.60 HSPF. The 4TWX5024A1000A (2-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F39A1000A yields 13.00 EER, 16.00 SEER, and 9.00 HSPF. The 4TWX5018A1000A (1.5-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F31B1000A (only rated match with the 1.5-ton outdoor unit) yields 13.00 EER, 15.00 HSPF, and 8.50 HSPF.

Feel free to print out my responses if it will be easier for you to go over these possible issues with your contractor. Good luck.

I guess it's my fault. I asked him to price with the IAQ as that's what another person priced with the Lennox and Rheem units.
Seems that I'm too hung up on the larger units and need to listen to what's being said. Looks like you, the Trane fellow, and the Carrier fellow agree -2 ton is plenty.
If it was a car, I'd have a leg to stand on as that's my training, but I'm just a consumer in this case and I came for expert answers. I best take them!
I suspect a 2 ton unit working properly would out-cool our old unit anyway.
He *strongly recommended* the 2 ton over the 3 ton even pointing that out again when he dropped off the papers with my wife today.

OK, it's between two now, but i'm a bit baffled by some numbers.
One is the Carrier system - the other Trane.
Carrier has cooling btuh of 25400 and heat of 22600/13700
Trane cooling of 22800 btuh and heat of 20000/11000.
But op costs are higher for the Carrier, cooling/heating of $122/$405 to Trane $122/$324.
The carrier is a more expensive system. So it seems the carrier has higher capacity and higher EER and SEER, but the Trane is not more expensive to operate, in fact cheaper for heating, in Iowa, that's the most important part by like 2/3 to 1/3.
The HSPF is sort of a wash.
Gotta say, the Trane fellow for being an independent operator (he was an installer for years, then broke off on his own, took classes in load calculations, etc. and has 4 employees now) has furnished more information, furnished a printed Manual J, and says NOT to go more than 2 ton, where the others were not so insistent and didn't offer as much info.
The TRANE factory warranty, if I read it correctly, is a straight 10 years..... is that right?