I will be waiting on a response. I didn't realize this and am glad you brought it up. If they delete the other names you never know if you are buying a rose you already have.

I think the place to have this discussion is in the HMF comments for the rose. Unless there is someone in this forum connected with HMF who can answer.

I don't know if this is allowed but I just copied this off of HMF

Duchesse of Brabant is now not shown as a synonym though the rose is searchable by this name. Funnily enough DdB is maintained for the climbing 'version'. Regardless of which is the historically correct name, I think this creates more confusion rather than settling the issue. I believe DdB should be given as a synonym to CdL. The rose is sold as DdB both in the US and in Europe so providing this name as a synonym should help users. Both this rose and its climbing sport should be treated equally with regards to the naming.REPLY

Reply #1 of 3 posted today byPatricia Routley

The Australian girls (Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens) found no reference to the name Duchesse de Brabant’ before the 1980s. Not to heed their research seems as though we are rejecting the work they did. Your excellent point that both the tea and the climber should be treated equally is well taken. We have made the incorrect names ‘Duchesse de Brabant’ and ‘Duchesse de Brabant Cl.’ both hidden synonyms so they are still searchable, but the main name is shown as ‘Comtesse de Labarthe’ for both the bush and the climber. Thank you NikosR for helping to fine tune HelpMeFind.REPLY

Reply #2 of 3 posted today byNikosR

I believe that DdB should be a NOT hidden synonym. What's the point of a hidden synonym? It just adds to confusion. I knew that Ddb is also called CdL but I was initially confused when I searched for it and found only the climbing version and CdL. What if someone is not aware of this? Should one go through the fineprint to find out he's looking at the same rose? Since the rose is known and marketed in the US and in Europe as DdB (not to mention ARS calls it like this), that should be a not hidden synonym. All this not withstanding the fact that the 'proper' name for the rose should be CdL. Just add Ddb as a real synonym and point out that it seems the proper name should be CdL. However, it's your call.REPLY

Reply #3 of 3 posted today bybilly teabag

Just to clarify - it is true that we found no reference to the name 'Duchesse de Brabant' on Australian rose catalogues or Australian rose literature before the 1980s but the rose was widely known as 'Duchesse de Brabant' in the USA by 1900 eg. the Dingee and Conard 1901 catalogue lists 'Duchesse de Brabant'.

There is no dispute that the rose was introduced under the name 'Comtesse de Labarthe' but how and why it acquired the synonym 'Duchesse de Brabant' is a question we were unable to discover an answer to.

'Duchesse de Brabant' is listed as a synonym of 'Comtesse de Labarthe' in a number of articles and publications dating from the 1880s - eg. Ellwanger (1893 edition) lists 'Comtesse de Labarthe', noting 'Duchesse de Brabant' as a synonym.

NikosR is yours truly btw..

:) I didn't know that :) Kinda figured. I agree with you.

I just had to put my 2.5 cents worth in on HMF, lol. It's silly not to have DdB listed as a synonym.

(common-sense) John

Oi John, what's it with your common-sense insanity? Rose or Fig? lol

OK, so it has had a synonym of DdB since the 1880s - then why is HMF suddenly trying to hide that info? What about "the Shell rose"? What about all of the other names in common use for other roses which ARE NOT the correct name under which they were introduced? This information is valuable. I hope HMF puts it back, and does not delete all of that info on other rose's pages. That would seriously degrade the value of the information HMF provides, to refuse to admit that some roses are called other names than those they were "born" with.

Jackie

This is confusing. I think clarity is always the best policy.

In the latest reply from the admins on this issue, it appears that what shows up on the admin screen for this page was different than what appears on the normal version of the page, so it may have been something of a programming error.

It isn't really a programming error, unless you think having stuff hide-able is an error. The problem is- I think- lack of awareness by some of the volunteer administrators who didn't realize that hidden really means hidden.

If I look at my screen, I see a lot of things that have been hidden because I also work as a volunteer administrator. If I want to know what most users see, I switch browsers, and stuff disappears.

Personally, I don't see the point of hiding information because it might confuse people; it seems more likely that hiding info will produce confusion.

Virginia

Jackie, if you do the necessary research to determine why Dingee and Conard Co. renamed the rose when they introduced it as premium to their customers, you may have a valid point. Otherwise, it appears that they arbitrarily renamed the rose for marketing purposes.

Hard to believe that practice started so long ago.

Royall William should become a hidden synonym for the well known red HT and its real name should from now on be used. Duftzauber 84. There... lol lol

Nik ... That's the point. There is a lot of inconsistency when you are working with volunteers.

Good grief, there has been inconsistency with rose names forever.

I think you were both kind and wise to make your comments on the HMF site. Thank you.

I think I can deduce that Duchesse de Brabant was someone from Belgium, where they have a lot of nurseries, but who in heaven's name was the Comtesse de Labarthe?

Naming plants for the Duc de Brabant and the Duchesse de Brabant was a going concern... there were pears named for them, begonias, azaleas, pinks, and probably other plants as well. There was an old centifolia named for the Duc de Brabant, but evidently, no rose was named Duchesse de Brabant until c.1875.

Was 'DdB' simply a renamed 'Comtesse de la Barthe', or was it an American rose that was confused in commerce with the Comtesse? About the 1880's, there was a fad for calling roses synonymous if their flowers were "too much alike" for exhibition purposes. The NRS came up with guidelines about which roses were too-much-alike to be exhibited together. Rosarians went to work publishing their lists of too-much-alike roses and as far as I can tell, the first mention of 'DdB'/ 'CdlB' synonymity was on such a list, published in Germany in 1882; no mention is made of whether the author had ever seen 'DdB' or if he was copying someone else who said it was synonymous with 'CdlB'.

Dingee-Conard was guilty of renaming roses, but they often also listed the original name in their catalogs. In 1900, though, they were caught appropriating Peter Lambert's rose 'Balduin'; they changed the name [to 'Helen Gould'], claimed they grew it themselves and "changed" the parentage. So it's possible that they had done stuff like that before, and gotten away with it.

On the other hand, there was an American rose introduced with so much nauseating hoopla that there was bound to be a backlash from the rosarians who had to hear about this fantastic rose 'The Augusta', which was supposedly a huge improvement upon 'Solfaterre', yada, yada, yada... Yep, they were called 'synonymous' and almost certainly immediately confused in commerce.

In the U.S., Henry Ellwanger [author of several editions of a book called 'The Rose'] caught the synonymity bug, and declared many roses too-much-alike, He had the tables turned on him when he introduced a HP rose called 'Marshall P Wilder', and others said it was a synonym for 'Alfred Colomb'... It's anyone's guess if 'Alfred Colomb' in commerce today is actually 'MPW'...

I'd say the real problem with rose names is that people are involved.

Virginia

I think there is a difference between when (for whatever reason) two actual ROSES get mixed up, such as Sombreuil (which we all know was introduced as Colonial White in the 1960s), and the old tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil, versus when ONE rose has acquired (for whatever reason) more than one name in common usage. In the first case, I think HMF (or whoever) should use the names under which each rose was introduced, as they are two completely different roses.

If it is a case when an already introduced rose (or an ancient rose) has accumulated more than one name in common usage (again - for whatever reason), I think it is very helpful and valuable to list all of the extra names in a sort of "aka" list, as HMF has done for many many roses. So, unless HMF knows that there was actually a DIFFERENT rose introduced into commerce with the name "Duchesse de Brabant", I think that name should be listed on an aka list under the original name Comtesse de Labarthe. As I have said, this rose is also called "the Shell rose" in many places, so that should be on the aka list also.

If, on the other hand, someone knows of another, DIFFERENT, rose which was actually introduced as Duchesse de Brabant, please tell us about that! I have not read or heard of that anywhere, but am open minded about hearing that info, if it exists.

I don't think we should get all outraged that some importer or another changed the name of an already existing rose (or even introduced an already existing rose under a new name, claiming they hybridized it, which I agree is fraud) to make it sell better, in the US or anywhere. That has been going on continuously forever. Trying to make moral judgements about how ONE rose has accumulated extra names in the past is just silly. It might have been just confusion, the drift of language (such as the Australians calling Comtesse de Labarthe "Countess Bertha" in the past), "local names" being given - see the aka list for Old Blush!, or actual fraud. The point is that they have accumulated extra names, and certainly if the use of some of those names for that rose is very prevalent, I think it is absurd to try and hide that information, which is extremely valuable, and exactly the sort of info HMF should be offering.

Jackie

Amen!

Jackie, I hope you didn't interpret what I wrote as an argument in favor of hidden names. My opinion is that all commonly used names and spellings ought to be displayed in the record. I think hiding info from users is more likely to cause confusion than displaying info.

I replied more fully to the HMF discussion at the HMF site.

Cheers,

Virginia

Judging from their latest reply it seems that the people running HMF have decided to make everyone's but their own life more difficult. I'm sorry about this.

Nik - is this just some weird anomaly for this rose only, or will ALL of the aka lists be deleted also?

Jackie

Judging from what they are saying this is a new thing which they are thinking of implementing across the board - when they in their infinite wisdom judge it as appropriate.. Jackie, the whole thread is in the HMF comments for the rose, why don't you read it yourself and see what you can make of it. Maybe also add your point of view as well?

..it appears to have been rectified... when I type in Duchesse de Brabant, I get the page options for that rose, plus synonym... equally CdelB

All in all, apparently a software glitch and not a "policy", though initial explanations about the disappearance of synonyms weren't very clear. However, I can't imagine HMF eradicating 18 of the 19 names that Old Blush goes by, for example...

catspa, it was not a software glitch, nor- apparently- HMF policy to hide synonyms. Administrators have to manually hide or unhide individual names, which is why yesterday 'Duchesse de Brabant' first became visible by itself, and only later the other synonyms were unhidden as well.

Many other synonyms remain hidden- including many that should be visible, IMHO. As far as I can tell, this is the only rose record that was changed, so if you notice other rose names "missing" from rose records, you will need to protest- if you care enough- on a case by case basis.

I have the ability to unhide individual names, but if another administrator comes behind me to undo what I've done, that's a waste of time, so I no longer try.

Thanks,

Virginia

PS There are 7 hidden names for 'Old Blush'...

I just looked on HMF for DdB and for CdL - both now show 6 synonyms, including 2 versions of "Shell". Yay!

If "The price of freedom is constant vigilance.", I guess that goes for the price of usefulness of HMF entries, too. So glad Nik brought this to our attention. Thank you.

Jackie

So, there was a bit of "intention" with what was going on -- good to know, Virginia. I agree, Jackie, that constant vigilance, and willingness to speak up, are essential.

On the hidden names, I very much appreciate that even when misspelling the name one can often end up at the desired variety (the fact that the French, with their inscrutable combinations of vowels, created and named so many rose varieties is a bane of my existence, both spelling- and pronunciation-wise...), but it doesn't seem necessary to include mundane spelling mistakes in the list of revealed names unless such were popularized, e.g., "Countess Bertha" -- a great alternate name that always makes me smile with the way it cuts to the chase.

catspa, I have a soft spot for the "Countess Bertha" moniker as well; it has a sturdy cheerfulness that seems to suit the rose quite well.

My French has improved since I began adding- and translating- so many rose references, but the thing that has tripped me up most often with rose names is de/ d'/ du/ de la/ d'un/ d'une. As in, 'Souvenir de Monsieur Jones' or 'Souvenir de Marie Jones', but 'Souvenir du Docteur Jones' or 'Souvenir du Général Jones'... And a few actual rose names for some variety: 'Souvenir de la Malmaison', 'Souvenir d'un Ami', 'Souvenir d'une Mère', 'Souvenir d'Henri Puyravaud', and Souvenir de Henry Clay'...

Ai yi yi...

Virginia

REALLLLLLLLLLLLY OFF TOPIC:

lol...my French is rusty (with whom can I even hold a French chat? lol), but even so the basic grammar stuck. But if you don't know the feminine/masculine designation of the noun involved, some things seem absolutely arbitrary. But they ain't, lol. First of all, all common, non-formal nouns are preceded by one of the following articles:

"Le" or "la", means "the":

Le + masculine word

La + feminine word

les = plural, non gender specific

---------------------------------------------------------------

"De, d' ", literally "of", non-gender specific. So:

De + word

d' + word beginning with a vowel.

--------------------------------------------------------------

"De le" is literally " the one, of the..", but equates with "some" when used in French. "Du" is the masculine form.

• du (+ masculine word)
• de la (+ feminine word),
• de l’ (followed by a vowel)
• Des = more than one, non gender specific

--------------------------------------------------------------

"Un, une" equals "one, 'a'... (fill in the blank)"

un (+ masculine word)

une (+ feminine word)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Now to confuse things royally, the noun is NOT masc/fem depending on what it IS, but rather on the root of the word. So it's the word itself which is feminine or masculine, not the meaning of the word. A word denoting something we think of as masculine could be a feminine WORD, and vice versa. Knowing which is which takes...a great memory or a good French dictionary, lol. There are some clues, though:

Nouns ending in "e" will be feminine 90% of the time, therefore you use "de la" or "une".

EXCEPTIONS are words ending in "-age, -ege, – ` eme, -ome/- ` ome, -aume, -isme". These endings denote a masc word, even though they end with "e".

Nouns ending with a CONSONANT tend to be MASCULINE, again, probably 90% of the time. Therefore you use "du" or "un".

See....easy peasy, lol.

(Francophile) John