1. RU
2. I'll have to defer until it is blooming again
3. Not too bad, but they are there
4. Not in SC
5. Not that I can tell.

1. An Australian source so probably doesn't matter
2. Dozens, she's just going into her autumn flush, so I'm not keen to pull her apart. Lots of petaloids.
3. None
4. No
5. Yes

1. B&B Nursery
2. 66
3. Yes
4. Not so far, only had plant 2.5 yrs, planted in full all day scorching sun
5. strong tea fragrance

1. Chamblee's
2. Never counted
3. Relatively few on canes, but watch out for under the midribs of the leaves.
4. Very tiny amount only in the early spring
5. Strongest of any tea to my nose: raspberries.

Hi, Cass.

1. Where did you get your plant?
FROM THE ANTIQUE ROSE EMPORIUM

2. How many petals are in a bloom? (Count both petals and petaloids.)
I'VE NEVER COUNTED THE PETALS, BUT THERE ARE ENOUGH OF THEM THAT YOU CAN CERTAINLY CALL THIS A DOUBLE-PETALED ROSE, BUT FEW ENOUGH THAT BALLING IS RARELY A PROBLEM FOR ME WITH THIS ROSE.

3. Are there prickles on the canes?
YES, THERE ARE PRICKLES ON THE CANES AND UNDERNEATH EVERY LEAF-RIB. BUT THE THORNS ON THE CANES ARE SMALL BY COMPARISON TO MANY OTHER TEA ROSES, AND ARE NOT VERY SCARY AT ALL. I WOULD NOT CALL THIS A PARTICULARY THORNY ROSE, PERHAPS "LIGHTLY THORNED" WOULD BEST DESCRIBE MY PLANT.

4. Does it get powdery mildew?
NO, NOT HERE. THE ONLY ROSE I'VE GROWN HERE THAT GETS PM IS CLOTILDE SOUPERT. PRETTY DRY HERE, SO I'M NOT MUCH HELP ON THIS QUESTION.

5. Does it have very strong Tea fragrance?
YES, YES, YES! THE FINEST FRAGRANCE OF ANY ROSE, NOT JUST TEA ROSES. THINK FRESH RASPBERRIES, JUST LIKE BELLEGALLICA SAID. I'M ALWAYS STUNNED WHEN I READ SOMEONE ON THE FORUM SAYING THEY DON'T THINK THIS ROSE IS FRAGRANT. MAKES ME WONDER IF IT'S MY PARTICULAR ROSE SPECIMEN OR MY PARTICULAR NOSE? ANYWAY, THIS ROSE WOULD BE WORTH GROWING EVEN IF ITS BLOOMS WERE BUTT UGLY.

Randy

1. Chamblees
2. Not sure, but see if you can count them in the photo!
3. Medium pricklage.
4. I don't have a problem with PM, so not sure.
5. It has a very nice fragrance, but less for me than Madame Alfred Carriere or Maggie, for instance.

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1. Where did you get your plant.
Buchanan's Native Plants in Houston as 1 gallon own root.

2. How many petals are in a bloom? (Count both petals and petaloids.)
Have not counted but it is never single (5 petail) bloom. I usually get the bloom like redbirds' picture, or with more petals.

3. Are there prickles on the canes?
Yes, big ones, not like Hybrid Perpetual's, with long interval between.

4. Does it get powdery mildew?
A little when the weather is wet like early spring. She comes back strong and healthy without any spray.

5. Does it have very strong Tea fragrance?
When the bush was young, I could not detect much fragrance. As my DBS is about 6 years old, I can find the plesant Tea fragrance in morning before baked by sun. I can not detect Tea fragrance well, so my DBS's fragrance must be quite strong.

You need this rose. In my climate, she stays as evergreen, very healthy, fast blooming cycle, and great bush form. I would make a hedge with DBS and MJS (her sport).

Cass, mine is still a baby but came from RU. I grew an imposter for years until I heard about the strong fragrance and decided I had a phony. I enjoyed your descriptions and beautiful photos on your site! I think you have further enabled my love for teas, they do the best for me of any class.

Carla

Golly gee whiz, you guys sure are nice, but you're cheating. I really need that petal count! It's okay to admit it was dark outside or that you don't have any bloom yet. Sorry, I can't count them from your picture, but if you can sacrifice one little ole bloom to count them, I would be very grateful.

Hint: The numbers are running about 45 to 50 petals, 15-20 petalloids, for a total of around 65.

Sometimes reading this forum makes me think my nose is broken. My DdB is going into its third year, so maybe the fragrance will pick up. I don't know, I have some very smelly Austins and I think I wind up comparing everything unfavorably to them smell-wise.

1. Where did you get your plant. Countryside Roses
2. How many petals are in a bloom? (Count both petals and petaloids.) Can't remember and not blooming yet
3. Are there prickles on the canes? yes, but not too bad
4. Does it get powdery mildew? not here
5. Does it have very strong Tea fragrance? well yes and no, I can't smell it in the air so much but I can when I put it up to my nose. It also seems to depend on the temp and time of day.

Mine is still young however it has more then doubled it size in just 1 year. I love the cupped shape it has. ONe of my favorites.~Meghan

What is a petaloid?

Petaloids are small petals in the middle, say 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the rose's outer petals.

I would love to have this rose----I'm waiting for someone to respond from my 6b7 ---northeast zone-----It is a beautiful rose and fragrance is very important to me.

Florence

I don't have it, but didn't Pickering used to offer it on multiflora rootstock? It would be nice to add one of those for comparison.

Cass, I wasn't really trying to cheat, I just wasn't at home when I posted earlier.

I have now sacrificed two blooms in an autopsy: 41 and 46 petals.

I have two Duchesses, one from Antique Rose Emporium, and one from Petals from the Past.

It's hard to estimate the petal count, but a full bloom, somewhat loose bloom form.

They do have prickles.

The leaves curl in late summer, and I think it gets a touch of powder mildew.

There's a background scent of herby Tea bag, and in warm weather a strong, sweet Tea Rose scent. I'm also able to detect the sweet Tea Rose scent indoors in a vase.

I have two and I think they both came to me from ARE via Petals from the Past.

Lots of petals. Roses don't bloom here until near May so I cannot count but mine is gone anyway. My husband took it out because he thought it was a hybrid tea (I was gone when he did it). Everything Randy says. I might have enabled him into this rose and Heritage, but not sure.

Another thing that is significant for me is that leaves kind of wrinkle before the leaf is fully grown.

1) It's been growing in our garden for 50-75 years.
2) 42
3) Yes
4) a little bit - not bad
5) Yes!

Patricia makes an interesting point about the leaves wrinkling, and I think I should change my answer to the powder mildew question to be "Don't know."

Ok... the bloom I got from about 6 years old DdB, the petal count was 45. The petal count decreases during the hot summer season.

I'm really worried now because my Duchesse has only 21 petals. I don't remember from where I purchased it, either Rogue Valley or Vintage, or possibly Uncommon Roses before it closed. It never mildews, does have a strong Tea fragrance and prickles. But why does mine have so few petals? It is a young plant; this will be its second summer.

Cass, would you mind telling us the purpose of your poll? Or is it a secret?

Ingrid

1. From a local rosarian at the Marion County Rose Society's booth at the Spring Garden Festival. 1-gal own-root
2. Don't know. Lots of buds but no blooms yet.
3. Yes.
4. In spring last year, so far none this year (her 3rd spring)
5. Yes, to me she smells like sweet southern (strong) iced tea. It always surprises me. I love it.

BTW, I think mine is moving out of her Ugly Duckling stage this spring. She's throwing some canes that look like they will balance out her shape. And she's covered with buds! I'm very hopeful.

Sherry

I'm curious about the poll too. What's the reason?

Randy

1. Heirloom Roses
2. Don't have it anymore, and don't remember
3. Ditto
4. Yes, and very badly, see #2
5. I didn't think it had much scent at all, see #2, but I don't read tea scent very well so I may not be a good judge.

4 different blooms picked today off the same plant in my yard. Blooms are different as are petal counts.
How's that muddy the waters for you?

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Janelle, your DdB looks rather different to mine, which has very cupped blooms.

Cass,
1. Where did you get your plant.
Peter Beales, 2008
2. How many petals are in a bloom? (Count both petals and petaloids.)
There are two open blooms now on my plant, which is still young. 64 and 54 petals
3. Are there prickles on the canes?
Only scattered, small thorns.
4. Does it get powdery mildew?
A little, but Teas and Chinas always get PM in early Spring here, when it's rainy and moist. The leaves are especially thin and small for a Tea.
5. Does it have very strong Tea fragrance?
No. The scent is very good, mild ('Mrs BR Cant' is "strong"!), but without the typical "dry" side of a Tea, as you can detect in 'Mme Lambard' or 'Marie van Houtte'. It's a "round", sweet scent, kind of fruity, much more in the style of some Chinas, as 'Louis Philippe'. Some yellow HT have the same kind of fragrance: 'Speck's Yellow' is the first to come to mind.

Ciao!
Maurizio

1. Countryside
2. 40ish
3. Yes, small
4. No, and no BS. I do not spray
5. Yes, and I normally can't detect the tea scent well.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to answer. There's no big mystery about why I'm asking.

We know the rose in commerce has a variable petal count. Since the weather is cool right now, we can't really tell if it's primarily a function of fewer petals, fewer petaloids, or both. I'm trying to get a rundown on the range in cool weather along with confirmation that the rose is armed with prickles. The PM is a 100% occurrence in the rose where I've seen and/or collected it.

The rose I know is very much as Ingrid and Maurizio describe it: thin, soft foliage easily damaged by powdery mildew, cupped, nodding, with just semi-double to just barely double blooms. It is terrible for a Tea in my climate, where they are usually fabulous.

So my objective is to see if the form of the bloom can be traced to the source of the plant. My working hypothesis is that there is a remote possibility that more than one rose is in commerce as Duchesse de Brabant. To test that out, I need to buy the rose from different nurseries.

Janelle's photo of the petals, with the range of petal counts - both petals and petaloids - from the same plant is a good way to do a petal count. Sometimes strange things jump out when you remove all the petals that you cannot see when the bloom is whole - i.e. the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

Cass, I got mine from Pickering, and it largely matches Maurizio's description, perhaps with fewer petals, open and somewhat cup shaped. It does not look like Jannorcal's photos of this rose. Not many petaloids in there. Sweet soft scent, not really tea. Prolific bloomer with little PM in the spring in a very crowed location.

Here's a photo for you from my plant in its first year:

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I thought you conducted this for HMF?

A.

That's interesting.
I have never seen a bloom of DdB that was not somewhat cupped.

Jeri

jannorcal's Duchesse de Brabant does not look anything like mine. I agree with Jeri, I have always seen this rose with cupped blooms.

For what it's worth, this is a typical bloom on my 'Duchesse de Brabant' from ARE. It's one of my most dependable for health & fragrance.

Randy

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jannorcal's blooms are cupped to globular. You are seeing them face on, which shows the imbricated center of the bloom. You can see the whole plant at this link:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.114012

All blooms are cupped on the DdB plants that I had. Powdery mildew is almost "indigenous" to California, so for me to get powdery mildew is like someone in the Mojave getting blackspot.

Having said that, over the past 4-5 years, I have had powdery mildew. I still doubt there was any blackspot in the Mojave but I do recall Missy having blackspot once and wondering what in the world it was, something very common to us humidity folk.

My rose looks very much like andreageorgia's and not at all like any of the other ones. Could the extremely low petal count be a function of the plant's immaturity? I really hope so because the fuller-petaled Duchesse is so much prettier. I must say my plant has not shown the slightest sign of mildew and is a full, spreading bush. Interestingly, my China rose Carnation, also in its second year, has much larger flowers than last year, with many more petals. Apparently it will take Duchesse longer than two years to gain more petals. Darn.

As to jannorcal's photos of the blooms, they do look different with their many small petaloids and petals that are bent outwards, even if one takes the (common) perspective shortening head-on angle into account. Randy's looks like mine, which got some more petals with age, but it never had that frizzly short petal look of jannorcal's. Here's what the British old rose authority Peter Beales thinks DdB should look like:

http://www.classicroses.co.uk/roses/d/duchesse_de_brabant.html

Andrea

Here is a link that might be useful: The Duchesse de Brabant at Peter Beales

I also thought that my DdB just looked like Randy's & redbirds, and not like jannorcal's. So, yesterday I went out to look at the bush again. Mine is just begining to bloom, so there are only a few blown or old flowers on it, but I found one, and it looks EXACTLY like jannorcal's head on. The edges of the petals have curved, & are not straight anymore. So I think Cass is correct (not an unusual circumstance!), and it is just a matter of the age of the bloom.

Jackie

It looks as though no one is looking for that identifying characteristic described in some of the rose books from the past of wrinkled leaves, which mine had. I cannot recall who or what book it was in that I read that and I thought I had the wrong plant but when I went out to look at the leaves, surely enough the young leaves were wrinkled, similar look to a baby's skin when it is first born but then the wrinkles fade with the age of the baby, the age of the leaves, 3-4 days.

Patricia, yes, that is one of the things that makes this rose so unique & recognizable. Sounds like you enjoy those baby wrinkly leaves ... and I do too.

Randy

1. Someone gave me a cutting
2. Between 20 and 30
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

With 35 reports thus far, here are the results. I did not ask about some suggested key identifiers, which are shown in bold. If you can confirm their existence on your Duchesse de Brabant, it would be interesting. I don't yet have a confirmed petal shape. If anyone has any leftover petals, flatten a typical petal under a book and describe the shape. I suspect that these are typically cuneate (wedge-shaped).

Leaves open wrinkled and then smooth as they mature.
Leaf margins are slightly wavy.
Leaf texture is thin.
Powdery mildew in coastal and central valley of California and in damp spring.
Prickles beneath on petiole (mid-rib of leaf).
Prickles on canes are scattered.
Bloom form is globular (fewer petals) to cupped (more petals).
Stamen: filaments are white to cream, anthers dark amber when fresh.
Petal color is medium pink with cream to white centers, probably cuneate (wedge-shaped).
Petals count: median 54 total, with range from 86-21.
For those with a hand lens, the sepal margins are glandular ciliate.
More than half report strong/fruity Tea fragrance. Some cannot detect Tea or did not report.
Plants often grow to 8 ft. x 8 ft.

Feel free to confirm this description or distinguish your plants if you haven't already described each of these characteristics.

I would like to report these results to Billy West, one of the Teabags from Oz.

Here's a late score from an extra innings game:

53 Total (if petaloids are tiny, narrow and crinkled, there were 7 or 8 of them.)

Sherry

My first Autumn bloom has dropped and it's 60 petals including petaloids.
The new leaves hang down under their stems and are wrinkled. The blooms are cupped, do nod and have the frilly, slighly transparent look of most of the photos.
The Teabags reckon that what we buy as the Duchess is actually the Comptesse de Lambathe.

I note in Old Rose Advisor that there was confusion early on over whether DdB and Comtesse de Labarathe/Comtesse de Labarthe were ONE rose with two names, or actually were two different roses.

SueSette, what sort of petal count does the presumed Comtesse de Labarthe have?

I need to look at the Tea Book!

Jeri

Cass, yes, all those descriptive items can be said about my Duchesse, including the ones in bold print.

Randy

Thanks for the updates! Keep 'em comin'. They go straight into my spreadsheet.