smm5525 -- I'm late to the conversation on this, but a few thoughts...

I totally understand your thoughts about having the kids hang out at the island. I had a pretty similar layout to yours in my old kitchen, but without enough room for seating. I definitely wished we had another 12" for an overhang and some stools, because kids like to help and hang out where the action is.

We also had a "barrier island" and it didn't bother me in the least. I wonder if some of the objection to barrier islands is based on restaurant-style cooking, which is quite varied and fast-paced. I know some people do cook that way, but I'm more with you -- I tend to pull everything I need out of the fridge and pantry, put them on the island, and then get to work. When I worked in a bakery, we usually had to pull ingredients from the storeroom and walk-in and bring them to the worktables, so it never struck me as a problem to do this in my home kitchen.

In addition, I would not stress out at all about the clearance between your sink and island. 39" is adequate, especially in a kitchen with just one primary cook.

If it were me, I would reverse the position of the oven and fridge in your plan, for a couple of reasons:

1 - Your family is probably going to be accessing the fridge pretty often, so the closer it is to the outside edge of the kitchen, the less they'll be in your way while you cook.

2 - The ovens are a danger spot for kids when the doors open. I may be over-worried about this, but I would not want my family to have to walk past the ovens in order to get something from the fridge.

I like the idea of putting your pantry on the end of the run next to the ovens and fridge.

Someone posted this on my other thread. :)

Kim, thanks for your thoughts. I do like my fridge on the end where it currently is but it might be too tight around the stools. I thought moving it would be a compromise to get it closer to sink and further from seating clearance.

39 vs 42 for sink aisle might just come down to cost. How much is it going to cost to trim out the island wood and lay in tile as well as fill in the wood needed for the expansion. Also, I'm not sure my kitchen is large enough for island tile. I have to sketch it out and price it out,. I already got a rough estimate of $1000 just to install the missing planks needed to do the 2' expansion into dining area. That's a discounted rate because the same company did the floors in 2011, so the owner is doing it without marking up labor. Taking out the wood near island then laying out tile is going to be much more. I've lived with 39" as is for 3 years and it hasn't bothered me. Granted my kids are small but I figured they would mostly be on the other side of the island grabbing things from fridge and pantry. I just don't know whether the extra 3" is going to matter. If we were talking 48" yes, but that means a smaller island. Ahhh, decisions, decisions!

I also note every home in this area has an island. I would see not having one as a downside. And every home with my exact layout still has the corner pantry, so at least I'm ahead of the curve there!

I don't have any helpful thoughts as you've gotten so much good input
so far, except to commiserate as someone who is also trying to fit all
the puzzle pieces into an
officially-too-narrow-for-an-island-but-too-wide-to-be-a-galley kitchen. Which could be because our homes are very similar. This is my floor plan and even the same little niche in the dining room:

Can you cut into your garage space? That's what I would do! Make it a 2 car rather than 3 tandem.

We're on a post-tension slab, so we're not doing too much. Just updating and tweaking. :-) We're in San Diego.

What many people don't realize is that if you have children, you will not remain a one-person kitchen for long. You will shortly need the wider aisles! Sure, you can make do with tight aisles now...but not for long. You need to think ahead, not be short sighted and only think of this moment!

Good morning Buehl! We are actually currently a 4 person kitchen. When hubby and I cook, kids are usually in there running around, climbing things and "helping." My thinking is the island separates the zones without a massive empty space in the middle. We will do the best we can with the space we have and the constraints of slab foundation. I'm looking forward to seeing your ideas :)

I can't quire pinpoint your goals and there are a lot of structural comstraints. Have you considered leaving everything where it is and just changing the arrangement of the cabinets? Are there drawers in the lower cabinets or are they all doors? Do you use the storage space in the island? Are you willing to to extend the countertop along the sink wall to come closer to the patio doors?

You could put floor to ceiling cabinets on the refrigerator wall and put no uppers on the stove wall and just the one glass fronted cabinet on the sink wall and then add your two windows around the stove.

It may feel like you don't have enough storage space to do that ( if you did floor to ceiling storage on the back wall with pull-out pantries I would definitely lose the corner pantry) but before you start any of this I would carefully go through your kitchen and see what in your kitchen you are really using. When I cleaned out my kitchen I was amazed at how many serving platters and plates etc that I had in duplicate and triplicate and only some of them did I ever find useful enough to have used in the last five years, everything else went to a charity.

Is the correct layout with the island that, for now, cannot be moved, and the window and sink?

Edited: To replace pic with one that includes the sink that cannot be moved much b/c on a slab.

Just to verify, the windows on the "top"/cooktop wall are all new, correct? So their sizes and locations can be changed.

Assuming the above is correct, then these are your aisles when just looking at counters. Appliances will also affect the widths, but I wanted you to see what you're dealing with.

Note, I am also assuming the 6'x4' island includes the counter overhangs all around on the island...is that a correct assumption? (I hope so!) Counter overhangs are an average of 1.5" - to cover doors/drawer fronts & pulls/knobs.

Hi Buehl,

the sink can be moved so long as it stays on that wall. That is where the drain is. Windows flanking cooktop would be new. Sink window stays. Current island is 72" x 31" counter with the base cabinet taking up 28" in width. The length can be changed because we have the floor to move it forward to get 48" aisle between cooktop and island. We don't have flooring to increase aisle between sink wall and island.

Sink window is 70" wide and is 60" from the corner wall to start of window. The layout you are looking at is the proposed new layout with expansion into dining room nook. Without the expansion, my kitchen is 2' less in width at the back wall.

And, for others who might want to play, here are the correct window/wall widths:

Thanks Buehl! So I received a quote for prep sink and its within budget. Not terribly expensive to put in. $2500 plus cost of sink. Location to be determined because we are reconfiguring island seating (KD did layout before I found out news about floor. Basically she had the island extended into the breakfast room based on assumption we could move the desk area back the same depth as the other wall and that we had floor to do so. So the seating was completely out of the way of the fridge wall. At the very least, we could stick two stools on the end and forgo the third stool as set forth in your pic. We are completely ok with that.

Back to the drawing board. I did mention moving fridge closer to the back cooktop wall as per your layout and my drawing. She didn't like that idea because 1) blocks the window 2) dead space next to the fridge and 3) ppl getting into fridge in way of cook. She is going to check on a few construction related things and in the interim I'm contacting someone she suggested that may be able to match the floor with custom planks. I'm still debating whether we should do a prep sink depending on how layout ends up. But I may have to live with the fridge being locked behind the barrier island and walking around like I currently do.

Thank you again for your help. I'll post update once I get some more construction and floor info. We are up against some weird soffits, walls and angles trying to gain that extra 2 ft in a way that makes sense with the rest of the floorplan.

Practigal, that was my original plan to just replace our builder grade cabs to improve storage. We are currently running all over the kitchen grabbing things from cabs to prep and putting things away after cleaning.

Well, after posting on Houzz, I decided to eliminate corner pantry, add Windows to back wall and inquire about expanding to dining area to get a larger island and increase aisles.

The challenge in moving wall back into dining wall is also moving the kitchen desk wall, considering angles and soffits and continuous walls while worry about floor of all adjoining rooms. Its not as simple as moving one wall :)

"...1) blocks the window 2) dead space next to the fridge and 3) ppl getting into fridge in way of cook..."

Item 1: The refrigerator doesn't block the window much at all - especially b/c I pulled it another foot away from the wall. In addition, if you reduce the window to 36" wide, it doesn't block it all!

Item 2: Nope, it's not dead - there's 3' of space there that can be useful as landing zone for the refrigerator to the Cooking Zone, as your MW center (in case you don't like the MW drawer idea), and as mixer or other appliance you want to keep on the counter but out of the way.

Item 3: That one doesn't make sense at all! People prepping and cooking will not be there at all! Cooks will be b/w the cooktop and sink and, possibly, on the island. There is no reason for anyone cooking to be in that space.

In your original layout with the refrigerator butted up against the top counters, Items 1 and 2 did apply - but that's why I moved the refrigerator down.

With those big windows and the big one over the sink, you don't have to worry about light blocking!

If you're really concerned, then the refrigerator could be moved down another foot or so and still not be totally blocked by the island.

I would much rather have the refrigerator there to increase functionality than somewhere else b/c it would look better! Is your KD a looks-first/function-second person? Some are - it's not necessarily bad, unless you want a functional kitchen! (There are some people who don't cook much who just want a show place as a Kitchen and who don't care about function - that's fine for them, but it would not work for most of the rest of us, )

Looks good Buehl!

Buehl's got some great ideas. I like your idea of moving pantry to desk area.

Hate to bear more bad news about flooring but since you are on a slab foundation remember it is likely glued down which will further complicate matters if you try to lift any of it up. It will need to be chipped out essentially. If I remember right you are in So CA where gluing down wood floors to slabs is the most common practice if the work has been done in the last 20 years and where floors are put in after cabinets are installed. You'll probably want to put any new cabinets on top of the floors which means you'll need to reduce the toe kick by the height of the floor to maintain a uniform counter height.

Yup Stan you are correct. Floors were installed in 2011, not original to house. I already had the owner of the flooring company who installed come out. He said it'll have to be carefully chiseled out. I'm not sure what the contractors would do in areas that have floors already in place butting up against areas without flooring. Where a cabinet would be partially on the floor and partially in an area that doesn't have the floor. I'll have to inquire about that.

A couple of more options. #2 is similar to #1. #3 is what you are suggesting (no seats and pantry on the end). The primary work zone locations have not changed.

Is that "Desk" staying?

.

Buehl, the desk area was supposed to be the main pantry with a smaller pantry in the kitchen. When we realized how much space we have in the kitchen proper after taking out corner pantry, it makes sense to put it there. The desk area would be additional storage probably cabinet style vs counter top. Desk is going.

There is an opening separating the kitchen proper from the pantry.

What do u think about in layout three of putting the double ovens on other side of fridge, closer to cooktop wall? With short kids running around, I don't want them crossing path of open oven to get to fridge. They are 2.5 and 5 so we have a long way before they are tall enough to clear the height of an open oven.

Another wrinkle, if the desk wall cannot be pushed back for structural or flooring issues, I need to cut down length of island so the stub wall on the desk area side path to dining room doesn't get in way. But I do love everything about layout 3 esp the island size. KD had also suggested fridge and DO locations flipped like layout 3 but she had cabinetry over at the corner end. I'm not sure how best to utilize the other space on that wall. Counter vs floor to ceiling cabinets/pantry and desk area. Can you help with that?

**when I say pushed back the desk area, I mean the same depth we are taking from the dining room.

I would also like to move double ovens as far away from the island seating as possible so I have a spot to put stuff down that comes out of oven. Don't want it too close to kids that might be seated at island end.

Frankly I'm completely confused at this point which layout you're thinking of going with. Can you repost it?

I'm going to likely go with this except fridge and ovens flipped. It's very close to what KD came up with. Yes it'll be a bit of a barrier for fridge to sink but I can live with that for safety of ovens from kids. Island may be cut short in length depending on whether the desk area wall can be pushed back (construction and floor plays factor). Prep sink may be added depending on floor.

The 36" left over for the pantry is actually only 15" (because of opening). So I can either leave it to house my brooms, vacuum, etc or add it to the hutch side.

The 48" cabinet that Buehl posted will look like this.

No seating at fridge wall aisle, only two small stools under end.

thanks everyone, especially Buehl!

Before you decide to flip the refrigerator's location in Buehl's suggested plan, take a look at this recent post:

"My main problem with our kitchen is the island is too big for the space. I am constantly circling around the island to get to the refrigerator and other work areas. When we have our 4 kids and spouses home for holidays there is no room to work in the small walkways around the island. When the dishwasher door is open it almost hits the bar stool at the island, even with 42” walkways."

need-advice-on-a-kitchen-remodel-for-a-fairly-new-house

Yup! I did read that post. We lived with the fridge barrier island for 3 years now. Moving the island down will help some but it's a trade off for sure between ovens vs fridge.

We aren't going from fridge to sink very often. We just don't eat too many fresh veggies that need constant trips. My fridge to sink trip is usually 1 trip at the beginning on my prep. Pull everything on island counter, walk around to sink and wash and prep.

As your kids grow and start to become more active in the kitchen they may not be as organized as you are or you may start to eat more fresh veggies in the future. So having the ovens near the corner and the fridge behind the island may not be as secure as you think when kids are actually working in the kitchen.

I like buehl's layouts with the fridge after the corner and then the ovens, then pantry (consider a with a pullout shelf there to give you landing for ovens). A UTC fridge on the desk area may help (I think you mention that in one of your posts, but not sure whether you're having one or not).

Since you consider this house as your forever home, I think you should consider changing habits and plan for multiple cooks in the kitchen, rather than concentrating on your current life-style only.

Yes I have considered all those things hence my original plan, almost identical to Buehls. However, I don't want fridge traffic crossing open oven. I've thought long and hard about this and taking into consideration how we live now and the ages of kids. In 8 to 10 years when my kids are old enough to cook, we can revisit switching and make sure flooring won't be issue.

Have you thought about having a range instead of a cooktop and separate ovens? A range can be more space efficient.

However, I don't want fridge traffic crossing open oven

An oven is normally open for only about 30 seconds vs how often you need to get into and out of the fridge. If you're so worried about the kids walking through, why not put a beverage fridge on the island side close to the end of the counter?

Yes we've considered and don't want to go back to range with lower ovens. We use ovens a lot, and while not both all the time, we like having oven up higher.

I just don't understand the fridge to sink issue. Do people seriously go to fridge, get carrots, wash and prep them, go back get broccoli, wash and prep it, go back get tomatoes wash and prep them? I usually pull all those things out, take them over to sink and wash and prep all together. That seems much more efficient than constant trips. Am I missing something or failing to see something because I've lived with it for 3 yrs now?

And the oven issue is also having a landing spot for things away from island seating as well as crossing traffic.

I also think about having teenage boys looking into the fridge while I'm trying to cook. I have a hot pan that's going from cooktop to oven and now have to maneuver around the kid standing at the open fridge contemplating what he wants to eat! Wouldn't my prep sink in island alleviate the fridge to sink issue? Or is there another fridge issue?

Yes, if you put a prep sink in the island that would solve the problem.

Also if your refrigerator gets that much traffic, you should consider a beverage/snack small refrigerator, maybe where the desk was.

A mini snack/beverage fridge is a definite possibility as is prep sink :)

I'll post again once we resolve the construction/flooring issues.

First it would be easier to read if you kept all your thoughts in one post. You can edit as you go if you need to.

You wrote:

I just don't understand the fridge to sink issue. Do people seriously go to fridge, get carrots, wash and prep them, go back get broccoli, wash and prep it, go back get tomatoes wash and prep them? I usually pull all those things out, take them over to sink and wash and prep all together. That seems much more efficient than constant trips.

Yes it is more efficient, but are you telling us you never forget an item, or decide it needs something else? I know I also keep my soy sauce, lemon juice etc in the fridge and sometimes as I'm working I realize that if I just add a bit of this or that, it will be better.

Am I missing something or failing to see something because I've lived with it for 3 yrs now?

We can get used to anything if we need to. The kitchen in the apartment I'm renting until our house is ready is probably the most inefficient kitchen I've ever lived in but I'll make do and after a few weeks, I probably won't even think about it.

And the oven issue is also having a landing spot for things away from island seating as well as crossing traffic.

So here's how it would work the way beuhl laid it out. While it's a long walk to the sink from the fridge, it's still a fairly straight line or close to one:

Is that a daily occurrence? Once a week? Once every other week? Truly how often do you actually move things from cooktop to oven? And if you do it that often, maybe what you need is a range with an oven underneath as someone suggested and then you can have a separate oven for when you need the extra oven.

Where in island is best spot for prep sink? Ideal location and a back up?

Across from the fridge

If I forget soy sauce I'm not going across my island to sink. I'm going straight to cooktop. Soy sauce doesn't need washing. I recall several ppl suggestions flipping sink and cooktop which would be a disaster having to go from fridge to cooktop multiple times which I DO do.

It all boils down to what works for me and how we function. I'm not risking my kids getting burned from an oven or hot pan because I have no place to put it because of a fridge to sink issue that doesn't apply to how we live. If people are truly making multiple fridge to sink trips in how they cook, perhaps they just don't get it and can let it go.

Sorry you don't like the way I respond. I'm typing on my phone and multitasking reading posts and responding.

Yes, I agree an oven should have a landing space nearby. And actually, the way I cook, I often finish things in the oven that I start on the stovetop. My ideal kitchen would have a gas range and a separate single electric oven, in a baking zone.

But I think adding a prep sink is a really good solution, if you don't want to go the route of a range. The other advantage of having a prep sink is that it's great for multiple cooks when your kids get older.

I think what others are trying to say is that we can get used to anything and make do with anything - but that doesn't mean it's the best or even a good thing.

Humans are very adaptive - and - we're all resistant to change to some degree, some more than others. We're all used to what we do now and have a hard time picturing something else - even if it's better. We also have a tendency to look at the present and not the future b/c we know what we have now and cannot picture the future.

What we've been trying to do is give you a Kitchen in which you don't have to make do - one in which workflow is natural and effortless and can accommodate the future when your children are working in the Kitchen with you. Speaking from experience - that time will be here b/f you know it!

Let us know what the outcome of the flooring is!

Just to give you another layout to consider - I know, I didn't switch the refrigerator and ovens - that will be up to you, but be aware that the refrigerator sticks out into the aisle farther than the ovens, so if you switch them, you will have a narrow aisle for most of your Prep Zone in the island.

I shortened the island by 6" since you said it would need to be shorter b/c of the desk/pantry area. Since I don't have the measurements to the desk/pantry, I can't tell how much it needs to be shortened. I would aim for at least 54" b/w the island and desk/pantry and 42" to 48" for the DR doorway. The measurement b/w the island and desk/pantry will be a diagonal measurement.

Layout #4:

.

.

Layout #4 Zone Map:

.

Fridge wall is only 11.5" because of pass through to dining. Island is going to be approx 62" to 65" (including overhang) x 42 (maybe 48). Pantry/desk area is approx 53" wide (not including the width of the walls). Here is the elevation I received for that wall. The 36" for pantry in Buehl's layout for kitchen proper doesn't exist. Sorry for confusion my original plan created ( I was trying to mark the opening but the program didn't have a feature for that).

Hopefully this helps explain what KD meant when she said fridge would render the corner mostly useless. She said my best bet is to keep pantry where she has it with fridge and ovens switched if I decide I want fridge closer.

Too many unknowns at this point to get a final plan but at least I now have options to help me fairly quickly decide once we figure out construction and flooring issues. Thanks to everyone for helping and giving thoughts and feedback.

Update: floor guy said he can match existing floor by creating custom planks. He took a plank to do a test sample. Assuming all goes well, we plan to just fill in the floor under existing island so that we don't have to carve out existing floor to level island. Cabinet maker will need to account for the floor when making the island. That way, if we ever make changes to island, floor won't be an issue.

We will get a few more inches in aisles all around, trying to get as close to 48" as possible.

I'm hopeful the floor sample comes out good. Our contractor has worked with this company before and said they couldn't tell the floor was repaired. We have waves and ripples in the floor planks from the handscraped distressed finish and he seemed fairly confident he can match. We shall see :)

Hoping for good news on the floor smm.