HomeSeal,

I live in Minnesota!

Did not know this since the AL is not easily found!. I will call and/or e-mail Marvin and Andersen to see what the number is! But the three pane is still attractive to me since also reduces road and other noises since I live along a business street!. Both other brand only offer the three panel in their top of the line model and it is considerably more. The price of the Acclaim is attractive too! The others brand are exclusive or not available for special size unless your are a certified brand installer and the total job is jacked up quite a bit since window replacement dealers get a shot at you only every 15-30 years! I just went with the dealers total price if I could not get the size which includes the labor too.

I appreciate your input and will let you know what my decision is after getting my last estimate for complete windows replacement project. I have already did the costing out of each replacement window so I can see just how much I will be paying!. A couple dealers gave me a price where I determined that the windows were only a third of the overall cost and that is what I can buy them for! So if thses guys are volume dealers, it much lower.

I will be getting estimates from independent window installer starting tomorrow. Out of four calls made, only one return my call today!. So I kind of disappointed and hope the rest do call me tomorrow!

Hi millworksman,

There were certain not the best since my builder went with the "spec" or builder's special.. But they lasted for over 30 years and I cannot complaint.

Crestline is cheaper for vinyl and some wood models but heard nothing on Crestline fiberglass. It been out since 2014; so I am taking silence to mean it okay. The Acclaim are much pricier to that of the name brand models then that of vinyl and some wood lines. As long as Crestline quality control is good and I would expect it be much better now since it a big company; they should have consultants telling Crestline to use robots to do the major critical components.

I take it you been burned by Crestline in the past?

Crestline's tag line is "the builder's brand". That tells you about all you need to know. The Marvin and Andersen don't have great air numbers either, but they are better products from stable manufacturers with a great reputation. Also, do some research on Weathershield. Bankruptcies, reorganization, etc. Its been kind of a cluster over there in recent years, and that is over and above the reputation that they have that is well deserved. If you want to invest thousands on windows that have mediocre performance at best and a terrible reputation that is your choice. You are not likely to get any seasoned pros to recommend it though. Sure the brochures sound great. What are they going to say? "Hey, this is a junky product?" Of course not.

I'd also say that your method of going about sourcing the window and install separately is about the worst thing you can do. When you have issues, and you will, the factory rep will say its an installation issue, and the installer will say its a product issue. Happens. Every. Time. For pricing, so what if the windows are a third to half of the total. There is also installation and operating expenses. There are shady people in construction to be sure, but by the prices you are quoteing above they sound about right. Nobody is getting rich off of those numbers I can assure you.

Please don't take this the right way, but it sounds like just about everything that you are doing is shaping up for an epic fail. Buying a window with questionable performance and a worse reputation from a financially unstable company, sold by a goofball at a box store, and installed by a cut rate guy that will install windows purchased by someone else. I'm not sure where in reading this forum or others anyone has advocated for any of those procedures, but hey, it your money.

Hi fridge,

If the parent company Weathershield filed for bankruptcy protection in the recent past then the company should a much stronger company afterwards, with no or reduced debt with collateral backed financing from a bank or specialized lending company like private equity. Look at GM as an example.

All you say is true but it might be in the past!

Harry, are you set on fiberglass Windows for some reason? Not that they are bad, but unless there is a specific need you have that precludes other materials, you could probably get a top performing vinyl window with performance numbers that are far superior, and installed by a highly reputable company for your budget of $900 or less... Just a thought in case you've not given it consideration.

Even if for some reason you are stuck on buying from Menards and/or want a real wood interior, that hayfield unit that i mentioned previously would be an option for you that is better in every objective measure and will cost less... Again, just a thought.

Look what I found on Weather Shield website

it Houzz Awards!

"The Best of Houzz is awarded annually in three categories: Design, Customer Service and Photography. Design award winners’ work was the most popular among the more than 35 million monthly users on Houzz. Customer Service honors are based on several factors, including the number and quality of recent client reviews. Architecture and interior design photographers whose images were most popular are recognized with the Photography award."

Here is their Premium line!

HomeSealed,

hayfield unit ?. Don't recall that.. Is it vinyl? The reason for fiberglass is no fading, more rigid and look better!

Hi all,

At the Weathershield website, in doing a search for a dealer, it a two miles away from my home!. What luck!. First stop tomorrow after breakfast!

Mentioned it in my second post.

What makes you think that vinyl fades more than fg?

The rigidity is largely addressed by dp rating, which is better on premium vinyl units than most fg units.

Better look is purely subjective, and there are both hideous and gorgeous examples of both... As matter of fact, there are great and poor products in each material.

"At the Weathershield website, in doing a search for a dealer, it a two miles away from my home!. What luck!. First stop tomorrow after breakfast!"

Good god, stop the madness!!!

harry wild, in your first post you asked for feedback on the product to decide whether or not you should proceed. You have now received a consensus from several pros that the product and methods that you are looking at leave much to be desired. Your responses to all of the points made have been to ignore factual criticsms by posting more fluff about this product. Is there a houzz award on that page for manufacturer or dealer impersonating a homeowner to try and promote a product? If so, ladies and gentleman, we have a winner!

fridge,

If you want to see the Weathershield website Houzz awards just click on the green! Much appreciated, the feedback. You guys are the greatest!

I also live in MN and installed a Crestline Acclaim all fiberglass casement window from Menards last fall after having the same debate as you. It was the only all fiberglass triple pane window with good glass spacers (Edgetech Super Spacer) for a reasonable price. The major benefit of fiberglass is that it has the same coefficient of thermal expansion as the glass panes, therefore minimizing the chance that it will break the glass spacer seal. I can report that over the winter I had zero issues with condensation and my friend who just installed wood Anderson double pane windows already has water spots from condensation on the interior wood. My Marvin double pane windows also have condensation issues which is why I went with the fiberglass triple pane window. I only installed the one window to try them out before doing the rest of my house. A couple downsides: Single split arm operator instead of dual arm. I wish they offered a Triple pane with a Low-e 180 or similar coating to improve solar heat gain coefficient as we want a high SHGC for south facing windows in Minnesota as heating costs far outweigh cooling costs. A properly designed house also has proper overhangs to block solar heating in the summer when the sun is high in the sky. The other benefit of this coating is that it does not block as much sunlight compared to some of the other coatings like Low-e 366. The Canadian companies are the only ones who really have the coatings optimized for Minnesota and further north, but they are also super expensive. The other really nice thing about these windows is that they have low-profile frames due to the fiberglass construction being much stiffer than vinyl giving them much better visible transmittance ratings compared to vinyl of the same size rough opening.

Thanks tk40 for the feedback!. I have not order my windows yet!. May go with the Crestline Acclaim or Marvin Utimate!. Not many installers do Crestine and so have trouble with finding installer.. May wait till fall?

tk, thanks for posting the ratings. If you do select that line, I'd highly recommend triple pane. The double pane glass package that achieves a .27 u value has an absolutely TERRIBLE condensation resistance rating at CR 45-49, and a very low SHGC as well. This glass package is not a good choice for MN.

Could you post the structural ratings for the double hungs as well, as that is a far more common configuration and would aid other readers of the thread.

The Crestline Acclaim windows are the same as Weather Shield EnduraShield windows. Weather Shield are sold to contractors I believe. Weather Shield has showrooms at Minnesota Exteriors in Osseo, or Window Outfitters in Savage. I bought from Menards because I did the install myself.

The casement window has a nice seal between the sash and frame which is it has such good air infiltration numbers. This was installed in upstairs of a 1.5 story house that gets really hot in the summer so I did not mind the heavy Low e coating, but I would not want this coating on our main floor windows as it does dim the amount of light that comes into the room. Our old windows upstairs had no coating and the light is much brighter that enters through them. The other downside is the operator. I wish it had a dual operator, especially on a heavier 3 pane window. I think the Weather Shield windows have dual operators on their fiberglass casements.

The slim frame and sash profile of these fiberglass match that of wood windows and is much much nicer than the vinyl windows I could find that I could buy myself. Sunrise and other high end vinyl window companies seem to only sell to contractors. The high end vinyl windows were more expensive than this all fiberglass window for my situation.

It does look like the Zo-e Shield 5 EXTREME double pane windows have the i89 coating on the inside pane of glass which reflects even more heat back to the room. The problem with this is that the inside glass is now colder and forms condensation much easier than with the standard lo e coatings like the regular Zo-e Shield 5. Hence the EXTREME windows has a better U value but a worse condensation rating than the regular Zo-e Shield 5 window. This is all about double pane window companies trying to meet the new energy standard ratings without moving to triple pane windows. It is a horrible trade-off so watch out for the new double pane windows coming to the market this year and going forward. Anderson windows is one of them and call it "Heatlock". Marvin calls it "ERS". The big windows companies are slow to adapt to triple pane because it will cost them a lot of money to retool their factories. For northern climates where condensation on windows is an issue the i89 coating is a terrible solution for getting a better U value. The window companies do not care because the northern climate is probably not a large enough market to carry a separate line of triple pane windows for us.

http://www.cardinalcorp.com/products/coated-glass/loe-i89/

For my main floor I am after an all fiberglass triple pane with similar glass performance to LoE 180 / LoE 180 coatings, High Transmittance, High Solar Heat Gain Coefficient and High Condensation Rating. I believe the Zo-e Shield 8 window has the LoE 366 / LoE 180 coating option, which was fine for my upstairs but the coating blocks too much sunlight for my main floor and it tints the sunlight a light green hue.

I got quotes on all windows having the same coating, so now you have me re-thinking each window and coating options. Getting more complex!

I really wish the Marvin Integrity Ultrex all fiberglass windows were offered in triple pane, but last I checked they only had double pane. They do offer a Tripane in aluminum clad wood with a Low E1 / Clr / Low E1 coating with a high SHGC of 0.39, but I can't convince myself to buy clad wood windows. Perhaps triple pane clad windows are fine as they likely won't condense on the interior and ruin the finish like all my double pane windows.

Last year Marvin was using the Cardinal XL Edge metal glass spacer which is not an optimal spacer for cold climates like Minnesota. And one of the reasons I believe many of the brand new Anderson and Marvin double pane windows have condensation issues on the perimeter of the glass when the weather gets below zero on cold winter nights in MN. Why they use a highly conductive metal (compared to foam) spacer between glass panes is beyond me. The Acclaim and EnduraShield use a foam Super Spacer that is far superior for this cold weather situation.

Marvin does seem to offer more coating options than Acclaim. At least Marvin states that the i89 (Low ERS) coating should not be used in northern climates.

http://www.marvin.com/plan/energy-efficiency

My friend did the video for them where they jumped on the Ultrex windows while wakeboarding. Not really relevant but a kinda neat.

https://youtu.be/LI69yK1lsJQ

Finally, one of the more critical aspects is how they seal the frame to the sash, I looked at so many windows that use crappy stiff plastic seals that do not conform to ensure a tight seal it was ridiculous. One of the other reasons I chose the Acclaim window was the continuous compliant rubber gasket. I don't remember off the top of my head how Marvin seals the sash to the frame, but a continuous compliant rubber gasket is the best way to go here. Check the corners of those seals, many manufacturers just make 45 degree cuts on the gaskets and hope the corners seal.

Marvin only offers triple panel in their top of the line - Ultimate! Most American brands only have it in two lines: vinyl and their of top of the line model.

"Last year Marvin was using the Cardinal XL Edge metal glass spacer which is complete junk and the reason many of the brand new Anderson and Marvin double pane windows have condensation issues on the perimeter of the glass."

I don’t know where you got this information tk_40, but it’s untrue. Cardinal’s XL Edge spacer is an outstanding product, as is their new spacer Endur. Cardinal is probably the most highly respected glass company in the industry, which is why they are trusted by so many window manufacturers who utilize the XL Edge spacer - Marvin, Pella, Andersen, Sunrise, etc.......

Please provide a reliable source for your claim that Cardinal’s XL Edge spacer is “the reason many of the brand new Andersen and Marvin double pane windows have condensation issues on the perimeter of the glass.”

And quality wise meaning (fit and finish, quality control, etc.) Weathershield/Crestline will never been considered anything close to the quality of anything Marvin.

Quote harrywild: "

Hi fridge,

If the parent company Weathershield filed for bankruptcy protection
in the recent past then the company should a much stronger company
afterwards, with no or reduced debt with collateral backed financing
from a bank or specialized lending company like private equity. Look at
GM as an example."

While their might be an ounce of truth to
that, last time I checked, GM did not void the warranties of all of the
vehicles purchased prior to their reorganization. If I am not mistaken,
Weathershield/Crestline/Peachtree DID. As a consumer, the financial
stability of a company is really only relevant as it pertains to that
company's ability to honor their warranty.

tk, I notice that you did not answer the above request to post the air leakage ratings for the double hung? Can I assume that is because it is poor? Or are you just going to now post more manufacturer supplied propaganda, as clearly you are a rep of this company or menards.

Ultra windows is absolutely right about Cardinal glass and the stainless XL spacer as well. Stainless steel is not conductive, and that system has the lowest seal failure rate in the industry.

Sorry, I was out of line with my "junk" comment. I edited my post. The Cardinal XL Edge spacer works fine in for other climates where you don't have -15 deg F weather like MN. I do not work for a window company or Menards. I am just an obsessed Mechanical Engineer who is trying to optimize the windows for his house. I am not loyal to any brand. I am still searching for windows for my main floor. I will not use the Crestline Acclaim like I did upstairs due to the heavy tinting the LowE coating provides on the Zo-e Shield 8 triple pane windows. They do not offer the LowE 180 / LowE 180 combination on their triple pane windows.

My requirements:

1. High condensation rating
2. High solar heat gain coefficient
3. High visible transmittance
4. Decent U value, I am willing to accept a worse U value in order to get a high condensation rating, hence why I am staying away from the i89 LowE coating which Anderson calls "Heatlock" and Marvin calls "ERS"
5. Decent window frame/sash design meaning somewhat low profile similar to the pictures I posted of the Acclaim window. This also increases the windows visible transmittance rating.
6. I have been wanting all fiberglass so there is no wood to rot out and if there are interior condensation issues on cold MN nights, it won't leave wet spots on the wood interior sash and frame like my current double pane Marvin windows with the Cardinal XL Edge spacer do.
7. I am not opposed to nice vinyl windows, I just have not found a higher end company willing to sell them direct to me. They seem to want only contractors to install.

Here is my reference for the window spacers and yes stainless steel is conductive, ever cooked with a stainless steel pan?

I am not buying double hung windows for my house so I really do not have a need to research them. I am only comparing the specific style of windows that I need to buy for my house. I am not trying to compare general brands against each other. I am trying to compare the Mustang vs the Camaro, not Ford vs Chevy.

@tk, I'd be careful about using charts put out in promotional literature as gospel as they don't always tell the full story. You are on the money though in looking at the CR rating. This will take the entire window assembly into account, which can change the condensation performance of the exact same glass for better or worse. The XL is a pretty good spacer and stainless steel is less conductive than the traditional metal spacer systems. There are some vinyl manufacturers using stainless that get U factors and CR ratings very close to composite spacers like Super spacer and duralite. Personally I do prefer composite, but the stainless systems are not bad and are a significant upgrade over something like a standard Intercept.

You have a manufacturer called Hayfield/Richlin right in your backyard in MN. I actually mentioned it above for the other commenter that was looking to purchase through Menards. The Richlin vinyl line has some of the best performance ratings (thermal and structural) on the market, certainly better than any of the stuff discussed so far... U value of .24 in the casement with a standard single coat low e, so a good shgc, vt, and CR.

Lastly, regarding your condensation, I'd be remiss if I did not suggest taking some readings of the RH in your home. It needs to be pretty darn low to avoid window condensation when the temps get very cold, regardless of how great or poor the windows are. There are many other factors that go into that as well, the window and its performance is only one aspect.

Yeah, Hayfield windows were on my short list. They also sell those at Scherer Bros. Lumber Co. which is where I took the pictures below.

The positives: Foam filled vinyl windows which improves the U value a couple points, Duralite spacers and DP70/DP80 ratings. Nice slim profiles.

From what I remember the downsides were that they don't offer a "clean glass" option on the exterior that resists water spots. Crestline calls it "EasyCare", Sunrise calls it "Solar Clean". It's really annoying that all the companies rename Cardinal's technology to make it seem like it is exclusive to them!

"Cardinal introduces Neat® naturally clean glass. It harnesses the sun’s UV rays to loosen dirt so water can rinse it away, leaving windows virtually spotless. Your windows will stay cleaner longer and will clean easier."

http://www.cardinalcorp.com/products/coated-glass/neat-glass/

And they had the pin style screens vs the spring loaded screens. I wanted spring loaded as I have 2x4 walls meaning a shallow depth window and my window shades mount on the inside so the only way to get pinned screens out were to remove the shades every winter.

And they only had single operators instead of the dual operators.

I agree 100% on having the proper humidity in the Winter, we do not have a whole house humidifier and our original house was built in the 50's with an addition added in the 70's so definitely not air tight as compared to today's homes. I had a blower test done a few years ago and it was average for my age home I remember technician saying. I was on a mission to buy a decent hygrometer a year ago but could not find anything that was very "accurate" unless I was willing to spend a few hundred dollars. Do you have any recommendations on good hygrometers? On a positive note the new Acclaim triple pane I installed last fall was the only window in our house to never have condensation throughout the entire winter. Hence my inclinations towards triple pane windows with composite glass spacers. I have no idea if the triple pane or the glass spacers contributed more to this condensation free window. From a pure engineering perspective, the Super Spacer technology seems superior to the metal Cardinal XL Edge spacers.

FYI for those of you wondering what DP70 means. It is called a Design Pressure rating. The following snippet is from the Marvin Integrity brochure.

From what I can gather:

Hayfield Casement: DP70, optional DP80

Marvin Integrity Wood- Ultrex Casement: DP50

Mavin Integrity All Ultrex Casement: DP40

Crestline Acclaim All Fiberglass Casement: DP60

Sunrise Verde Casement: DP70

Soft-Lite Elements Casement: DP70

Here are some pictures of what a window in my home. I was told by Marvin Infinity sales guy it was a Marvin window. Notice the black mold on the wood and water spots on the interior sash. Hence why I am cautious to go with wood windows again.

@harry_wild, Marvin Integrity Wood/Ultrex windows do offer a Triple Pane option now.

https://youtu.be/gALGXbhxT0g

Well I now have an immediate need for windows. I ripped out my old bay window and built my own framing so I can use standard windows. I really wish someone in the US made an all fiberglass triple pane with the LowE 180 / LowE 180 coating to achieve high solar heat gain for this south facing bay window! Closest I can find is the Marvin Integrity Wood-Ultrex line. I requested a quote from Fibertec in Canada so we'll see how that goes. Not sure how long my wife will let me have plywood windows while I search!

http://www.fibertec.com/windows/

Also found this interesting tidbit of information on glass spacing optimization on the Jeld-Wen site.

This is the Guardian SunGuard IS 20 coating, similar to Cardinal i89 interior coating. Talks about the condensation issues.

Looks like Anderson A series now has a triple pane option and is similar in design to the Marvin Integrity Wood-Ultrex window.

tk_40,

You know your windows!. Love to see a video of you vs. some of the windows sales associates! You would eat them alive and more! You are the "Pro" in the discussion.

Harry, not to knock tk_40 as he has obviously done his home work. But factory testing and the data sheets only answer part of the equation. Quality workmanship, fit and finish are a very large part as well as the installation. The best performing window in a factory controlled test installed incorrectly with nasty workmanship on the interior will still be ripped to shreds as crap..................

Looks to me like the professionals offered thoughtful commentary based on data and experience. Didn't see this as a competition or argument. Tk posted some good info, primarily graphics from company websites. Didn't see much debate there other than on the topic of stainless steel spacers, which despite my preference for non-metallic, are actually very good. That is a fact widely accepted by ALL in the window business.

Only other point of contention in the thread in general was on Crestline/Weathershield as a product/company. Seems that most professionals are not particularly enamored with them, and then there are the facts that they recently filed bankruptcy and the performance of their products is not anything to brag about.

We have had Acclaim casement windows in our house for four years. We live in SE Iowa. We configured them differently on each side of the house i.e. triple glazed only on the north side. Very good performance and good value, More photos on FB The FarmHouse at Hickory Highlands.

Our Acclaim windows have been installed for 5 years. I was wiping dust off the moulding and sashes with a damp cloth. Red colored material from the window trim came off on the rag. I'm not happy about that.

Some finish oxidation is normal in this case. Are you sure it was finish material or could it have been accumulated atmospheric dirt?