(Since I just had a computer glitch and lost everything I wrote, let's see how much of the dream I can remember.) Ingrid, I was going to ask you "how big is this dream garden of mine?", but then I reread your post and saw that yours is your present garden, so I guess my dream garden has to fit in the space I have. When I gave you my choices, I didn't give you a plan, so here it is. Since my garden is in my small front yard, up close to and in front of my house, I can't very well have dozens of towering Tea rose bushes hiding the building. That would be silly and has been my dilemma from the beginning. So I need a "Special Small Garden in Two Parts" exemption to allow me to have a 4th rose. The dream garden plan would still be a circle in a circle, and in the center circle would be, of course, LeVesuve in all her big, bosomy pinkness. In place of the arbor at the top of the circle would be two Maman Cochets, the regal matriarchs of the garden. And in the rest of the outer circle planted en masse would be the 3rd rose in the front - Enchantress, a gorgeous magenta pink smaller Tea rose (supposed to be anyway). They would sweep up and around from the entrance at the curb to meet the Maman Cochets, bowing at their feet with arms raised in adoration. In the back garden I would need a climber because of all the oak trees I have that would want to participate in the dream. And that climber would be LeVesuve. (Oh, did that sound like a 5th rose? Nah.) The rest of the garden would be a maze of hedges of Anna Olivier and Maman Cochet, all neatly and softly clipped with no hard edges. I'm not sure if they would be mixed or all one color on each side of the path. In my dream garden Tea roses don't mind some trimming for beauty's sake. Hopefully, DH won't be too nauseated by this pastel pink and yellow dream. And then I would want more Enchantresses close to the house so we could see out the windows, right? In my dream garden there would be no north side of the house, and the west side would be just as good as the east side since there would be no BS in my garden and the setting sun is just as gentle as the morning sun. And there would be clay in the soil that would retain moisture and nutrients so all the rose bushes would have lots of beautiful green leaves to go with the flowers. In my dream garden the oak trees would not shade the roses - just the people. And no dream garden would be a true dream if the choice of roses could not be changed with the season. Now, as to the next rotation of dream roses... Sherry

A number of things: 1) No need to remove sod, so that will save a ton of work. The newspaper, mulch etc will kill the grass and the dead grass adds humus to the soil. 2) If planning to plant, do not use landscape fabric. Fabric is designed to be used under decks, patio stones and walkways where it will not be cut into for planting. Here's how to do it. Use a garden hose to outline the bed. A curvy line looks best, likely a lazy L or C shaped bed will look good. A square bed or rectangular bed with straight sides does not look as nice. Move the hose around and rearrange until you get the shape you like. Now spray paint along the hose and remove it. Use an edger to cut the grass along the paint line, wiggle back and forth to create a v-shaped line. Cut the grass inside the future bed very short. Save your newspapers for a month or get old ones from the corner stone (they cut off the date to return to supplier and throw out the rest). Arrange to have a truck load of composted manure and another load of wood chips delivered. On bed creating day, get a few friends, some beer and munchies then proceed: One or two people place four to five sheets of newspaper over an area of future bed, folding paper to match the curve of the edge. Another person follows with the hose and wets the newspaper. The rest shovel manure and then woodchips over the newspaper, wood chips should be about 2" deep. After all is done, drink beer, eat munchies. If you don't object to chemicals, a faster way is to spray the grass inside the spray paint line with Round up, wait two weeks, respray any grass that is still green, wait another week. Then, one day have the truck load of manure dumped on the bed, rake to shape. Next day, have the truck load of wood chips dumped on the bed, rake to shape. If any weeds pop up over the summer, pull them out when small. You can plant into the mix after about six weeks or wait until next year. While waiting, draw a plan of the bed on graph paper and plan what to plant where. If full sun with sandy, dry soil rethink using iris, they need moisture. Adding organic matter is good, but you cannot change the fundamental nature of your soil. So unless you want to spenda lot of time watering, research plants that like sunny, dry conditions and use them. Depending on the size of the bed, you could consider some small shrubs like Potentilia (under 3ft with yellow flowers all summer).

bboy and larry_gene, thanks so much for your replies. This is exactly the sort of stuff all the books seem to leave out. And yes, there are five trees on the lot (that one you see is in the back yard); the four on the public side have to go b/c they are too close to the house and/or get tangled in the power lines. (We already had one removed b/c it was growing into the sewer line.) My DH is very sad about them; I am less so b/c I want the space for my garden. The tree in the NW (our back yard) is a pagoda tree (Styphnolobium japonicum) which I was hoping to keep. I like the weird little seed pods it puts out. They look like translucent emerald green beads. It does make a mess of the already messy back yard, though. You've got a very good eye! Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese pagoda tree

· Posted by: hnwillis z8 SC (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 01 at 15:22 Ya'll gotta be some of the funniest people. After going through the ordeal of many a gardenia suicides, I decided it was time to plant them outside (great humidity and heat-Z8 SC). I hate to say this but two years ago I planted 2 gardenia plants on the northwest side of my house. They have been doing just fine. They are just at 2-3 feet tall. I have pruned them together this past sprng into a low hedge next to my white picket fence. I have planted the trimmings amongst a groundcover of Gerbera Daisies in a 24 inch plastic pot that I also planted a 10 ft crooked willow tree on the southside of my house. I also put some trimmings into small pots with cheap Wal-Mart garden soil. To my surprise, they have taken root and are growing like crazy. I put one particular cutting into a pot by itself to be able to bring in the house. I left it outside all spring and summer (it rained constantly when I first planted them). This one stayed in 5 inches of water/dirt for 2 months. I have brought the sole potted plant into my sunroom and placed it inside a miniture greenhouse. I doesn't seem to be growing like it did outside. I'm really thinking that it likes to be outdoors in humidity, heat and southern exposure. Go figure? So from 1 pruning of two plants I have successfully propagated 10+ little ones. I can't wait until they bloom. Also, the main idea for planting them outside is that my neighbor has a 10 ft tall, 7 ft wide "gardenia bush" that is heavenly when it blooms. I have taken pictures of it because people don't believe me. I know she doesn't do anything special to any of her plants. One thing we do have in common is acidic clay soil which our azaleas and camellias seem to thrive on. · Posted by: bedou z10 Ft. L. Fl (My Page) on Fri, Dec 7, 01 at 1:15 Its 1:09 in the morning. My laughter must have woken my husband up, so I suppose I should put the kettle on! From a nude plot of land in Ft. Lauderdale, I have tried to fill it up with fragrant choices. Yes, Gardenia included. Its yellow leaves tend to give me a good contrast against all those green ones that are flourishing. Alas, they tend to fall off, so I just use them as mulch where they land. Time to find something else! I certainly shall not spend time agonizing over it, from what you have all said. Oh well, I had such high hopes!!! Joanmary · Posted by: fpogoda 5 N NJ (My Page) on Mon, Dec 17, 01 at 12:21 Just wanted to be sure regarding the indoor gardenia temp. issue: is the optimum temperature 70 degrees during the day, then 55 degrees at night? Thanks · Posted by: yugoslava 6 ) on Sat, Dec 29, 01 at 20:56 I have been fairly successful with azaleas and rhododendrons and wonder if it would be possible to keep gardenia dormant over winter and bring it out in spring, plant it among rhodos and leave it until it gets cold. I have admired gardenias from afar for the longest time, but I knew indoor conditions in the winter were not the best, so I have never had one to call my own. Would it be possible to keep gardenia cool over winter as I do with my fig tree and brugmansia? The scent is absolutely intoxicating! One word about people who live in warm or coastal areas. You have no trouble growing tropical plants which we can only see when we take tropical vacations for which we have to pay dearly. I live in Great Lakes Region with short seasons but we all dream of exotic plants growing luxuriantly indoors. Which is why we fret and fuss endlessly. · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Tue, Jan 8, 02 at 10:16 This has to be the funniest thread I've ever read at the GardenWeb. I laughed so hard I could hardly talk and had tears in my eyes!! I printed out the whole thread to share with other pour souls who have tried to grow Gardenias according to all the best recommendations, only to watch them wither away. We have a Gardenia growing on a slight slope in alkaline clay soil under a Japanese Black Pine tree. It gets mid-to-late sun. It gets watered whenever we run the lawn sprinklers. It isn't the most prolific plant we grow, but at least it's alive and produces some blooms for us each year. The success is probably due to the fact that my husband is the one who cares for it, and he is not a by-the-book gardener... he just waters whenever he thinks the lawn needs water, feeds it when he remembers (I think the last time was about 2 years ago), etc. LOL!!! · Posted by: Rosalie 5-6 salt lake (My Page) on Wed, Jan 9, 02 at 11:30 this thread is hilarious! and now famous -- a link to it is posted at the garden party forum, so some of us have wandered over to check out your battles -- i believe i will stick with xeric types -- no chicken dances for me -- thanks for the laughs! and good luck to all -- rosalie · Posted by: ccl38 8A Savannah, GA (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 15:59 I too have had trouble with vetchii. Mine was so large and so heavy with blooms I decided to prune it. We couldn't get past it down the walk. Once prunned it went into a decline and it has never been the same. I have another variety that I rooted about three years ago from a large bush growing at the edge of the swamp near where I work. It is mostly in shade, never gets watered and would probably measure 5 feet, and it has those huge saucer size blossoms and smells wonderful. I don't shake a chicken so I guess I must have held my mouth right when I planted it. They are my favorite plant. For me it is a pass along plant. I root them all summer and give them to anyone who comes along and wants one. · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 19:23 cc 138 you must have 'the magic touch'Well done, and I say that with honest envy. The question is, are you ready, willing and able to produce 75-+ rooted cuttings from a 'proven' specimen with the right karma, one for each of the above postings, to restore our faith in this plant and to bring aid and comfort to all of us who have been brought down by this picky, picky plant? lol!!! Joanmary · Posted by: Lily 5 IL (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 02 at 21:16 I got a Gardenia "Veitchii" last January as a gift, loaded with buds. Looking for culture info I found this thread. Aftering reading everyone's experience, I thought I was going to kill it for sure. I held my breath when I was anywhere near it. I misted it daily and then decided not to mist after my hard water left ugly mineral stains on the leaves. More then half of the buds dropped and it refused to bloom indoor! It got a lot of half yellowed leaves before I dragged it outside in late Spring. It thrived outside and bloomed! In the mean time I got hooked on orchids. I started using the leftover orchid water (rain water with 1/4 strenth of fertilizer and a drop of Superthrive/per gallon) to water the gardenia. It's been growing like crazy! Now it's back in the house in front of my south facing window, and in bloom! It's in a 12" plastic pot and about 2 feet tall. Maybe it's the rain water or the superthrive, but there is definitely hope for all gardenia lovers! · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 02 at 13:40 So that's the trick... "water with leftover orchid water". Why don't the gardening books say that?!? LOL! · Posted by: Lali z9, 18, So Cal (My Page) on Mon, Jan 21, 02 at 15:16 I can't believe how long this topic has gone on for. It is sooo hilarious! Anyway, I'm trying my first attempt to grow gardenias. I put them in the backyard (northern exposure) with ferns and azaleas, so I'm hoping they will be ok. Now that I've read this post, I'm really really really skeptical that they will bloom or even live by my hand. Thanks for the laugh! Lali · Posted by: freesias Z9 ) on Tue, Feb 19, 02 at 23:35 Oh My GOD! I just planted THREE 1 gal. 'Veitchii' gardenias in my front yard mixed border. I have a feeling, my are gonna DIE on me. I am definitely not touching these guys! Will water once every couple of weeks. THAT'S IT!!!! · Posted by: susan_CA z9 CA ) on Sun, Feb 24, 02 at 16:05 What a great thread! Gardenia culture is such a thrill of success/agony of defeat experience. Anticipating an unknown failure rate, I bought 6 'Veitchii'! The two planted directly under a tree (where I wanted to sit) and northern foundation exposure died. The two planted in eastern foundation exposure with shade mid-day on bloom copiously all summer. The two planted in western foundation exposure, where light tree shade relieves afternoon heat after 4pm do almost as well. All get composted manure in early spring, pine needle mulch, half-strength chelated minerals whenever leaves begin to pale or MirAcid if I think of it, water from sprinkler system early a.m. (including on leaves) daily in summer in the hot, dry central valley, and have FAST drainage. The two that died were in locations with slower drainage and more shade. The only year I had some bud drop was the year we had a late, wet spring, but they bloomed fine all summer. I have seen specimens in full sun in the central valley; they bloom well, but leaves & blossoms show sunburn damage. So I'm going with the sun/shade, wet/dry, feed/not theory. · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 0:42 Oh my, oh my! The woman at the nursery said I could have an indoor gardenia in my east-window-garden (morning sun, high level of light the rest of the day), but it sounds like she forgot to tell me I'd need to install a swamp for it, as well. I certainly have plenty of heat for it, here on the low desert. I may be joining the ranks of the guilty gardenia group: I'm not likely to "mist" the miserable thing, nor am I likely to change my habits in on-going care (I am sadly irregular about watering and feeding my only other plant--a low-maintenance Madagascar Palm--dracena). I prepared the soil well enough though (a standard potting soil mixed with half-again as much peat moss), I placed the plant "high" in the middle of the pot, added a layer of peat moss on the top, and covered it all with some additional organic mulch, watered it in with an "acid" feeding, and set it above a large, relatively deep saucer with plenty of water for evaporation. I may have misunderstood the nursery lady's comment about the roots, though, because I removed a great deal of the soil from the root ball and treated the roots with hormone before placing it in the new pot and soil mix. I read in the messages above that this plant may not have liked that messing about with its roots. I believe I'll acquire one of those devices that gives a reading of the humidity, to see just how dry my window garden area really is. We'll see what happens. While I may be capable of sustaining this thing's life for a short while, after reading all of this, I'm not planning on much success with it. I tend to move on to other projects, and I'm afraid the poor thing will have to shift for itself more than it is constitutionally capable. Of course, reading about the success of those who largely ignored their gardenia gives me some hope. That's more my style. At least I have a good excuse for turning the AC down to 70 starting in April. I just don't think the local power usage police are going to understand it when I tell them that my astronomical power draw is necessary for the health of a plant. This is going to be expensive emotionally and monetarily. Who would have thought a trip to the nursery would result in such bondage? · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 13:16 Oh, what a wonderful laugh this has been! My poor old gardenia is there in Florida, with no one to care for it, depending on the sprinkler system to 'do its thing' and I have no clue what is happening to it. However I have my dark moments when I can see the Christmas lights decorating its bare twigs come December! Taking it that I will be using its twigs as mulch sometime soon, I have bought as a replacement, the African Gardenia. Now I wonder if this is in the same category? Here's to Gardenias who can take neglect!! · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 15:31 I discussed my newly acquired gardenia issue with my elder sister who, smirking, told me it would probably do me good to have something to worry about. I can only think she was being complimentary about my faultless children and long-ago departed harpy of a wife. She herself has a half-dozen off-spring who provide her with plenty of heart-rending despair. Just in case she was being a smart-ass though, I bought my plant an ultrasonic humidifier which pumps 2.6 gallons of water vapor into the air each day, and I hurried to the used book store and increased my holdings in James Lee Burke (setting: southern Louisiana). I suppose I could have picked up some Faulker, as well, but he's so damned hard to read. I can't stand Tennessee Williams. I am thinking that a few dark and decadent thought-waves might make the gardenia feel a little more at home here in the bright, parched protestant desert southwest. Although it's only been a couple of days, I'm sure it's looking a little better than when I brought it home from the nursery; but just the same, I'm going to keep my eye on a new leaf that is looking a little yellowish. I don't want my dear sister to have the last laugh. · Posted by: BarbC coastal SC (My Page) on Fri, Apr 12, 02 at 15:53 LOL - I have tears rolling down my face and flooding the den. I have 2 unknown variety gardenias that I bought at HD 4 years ago. Since then, I have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to them and yet they thrive. They survived the great flood of '99 (were under 6 FEET of nasty swamp/river water and were still green 3 months later when the water finally went away) They were only 1ft tall at the time, so literally had 5ft of nasty black water on top of them. I even had to pick dried toilet paper off them, as the flood had taken the contents of 1000 septic tanks along its path. Those two gardenias and the roses were the only plants to survive that mess. Anyway, once I could finally walk through my yard again (without sinking up to my eyeballs in slimy mud) I dug those suckers up and moved them to my new (dry) house (roses too). They are still there and doing beautifully in full southern afternoon sun. I do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING special to them. I don't even ater then during droughts. Maybe that's the secret? The guy across the street has a couple and he also does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to his and his are even nicer than mine. Perhaps we are killing these plants with kindness? Maybe what they really want is to just be left alone?