To jump in way at the end here, I think the comparison that would be more valid concerned which is "more work" would be the complete cycle from "seed to seed". As far as heirloom goes, it is a pretty basic plan for "seed to seed" - plant seeds, grow plants, pick quality fruit, save seeds. (While each step has some more complexity than I enumerated, it really is that "simple"). There is very little cross-pollination between tomatoes (although it CAN happen). If you are worried about it, a simple net can be placed over your fruit branch that you want to save the seeds for, and not worry about cross-pollination, as most tomatoes self-pollinate. Compared to hybrids, you cannot go from "seed to seed" in most cases. So there is no cycle. You MUST purchase new seeds every year (that have been crossed from their parents, year after year to produce new hybrid seeds). If you want to talk about economics - there is NO comparison! Even if heirlooms were twice as expensive as hybrids (which is not the case for the spectrum of varieties available), it would still be more economical in the long run to go with heirlooms and save the seeds. Tomato seeds are viable (if properly stored for up to 4 or 5 years - many times longer), so you could save yourself the hassle of saving seeds every year and just save MORE seeds than you need and save them every second year or every third year. In short, heirlooms can be a one time investment, if you so choose - hybrids are a yearly expense. (And yes, I did mean to use the different terms - investment vs. expense.)

Here a discussion from Queztal and Billy Meier in 1987 Looks like GM is here to stay but there will be some learning along the way... Billy: Then to something else. For now, I have, once again, heard of enough evil that the future will bring. �" How does it stand, then, with the progress relating to genetic engineering? You’ve already told me a few things, but now, in relation to this, the question arose in our group during a discussion: when will it have come so far that genetic science will merge plant and animal genes together, in order to cultivate plant-animals, respectively animal-plants? Do you have any knowledge about this and does such an action represent the natural scientific evolution of man? Quetzal: 16. The science of genetic engineering is established in the laws of overall evolution; therefore, it also cannot be prevented, even though in the future, irrational ones, who will unite together in whole organizations, will want to destroy such progress by all unfair means, even with lies and with false test reports and impact reports on genetically altered plants, animals, and humans. 17. However, genetic progress can’t be stopped, in spite of all these irrational machinations of the genetic engineering enemies, because the laws of evolution will allow it that even this branch of progress will find its fulfillment through human genius. 18. Of course, genetic engineering will need its time before it can function flawlessly because every beginning requires efforts, researches, and mistakes that must be made, for only through these can qualified and real successes be obtained and can progress be created. 19. But exactly this means that all negating things that will be undertaken in the future by those who are irrational and fearful, in reference to genetic engineering and, thus, to genetic manipulations in plants, animals, and humans, will be wrong and impeding to progress, as well as absurd, unrealistic, stupid, and irresponsible, for such actions will inhibit the progress and the better well-being of the Earth person and, thus, will slow down many vitally necessary solutions for humans, animals, and plants and even make such solutions impossible. 20. Due to the irrationality and irresponsibility of the genetic opponents, it will be that a lot of genetic progress for all humans, animals, and plants, as well as waters and air, and even for all of nature, will be prevented for many years, even though life could be prolonged by centuries through genetic engineering and just through the genetic manipulation of the person, by what means his health could be so stabilized, namely in a few decades, that he would almost never get sick. 21. Also plants, fruits, and vegetables, as well as other food products, could already be so genetically altered in a short time for the welfare of humans that ample benefits would arise from it, but the irresponsible, irrational and, thus, the gene-negating ones will work against this with lies, deceit, and fear, by what means the actual successes of genetic engineering will also have to wait a long time for themselves, for when the first actual successes are achieved, from which the people will benefit �" often not even knowing that their food or medicines are genetically engineered and are only actually useful and healthy because of this. 22. But concerning your other question: 23. It will be the year 2002 before a genetic attempt will officially become known, with which plant and animal genes will be brought together. 24. About this, we have acquired probability calculations, which show that the whole thing will report itself in Japan, in the sense that the genes of spinach plants will be transferred into pigs 25. Nevertheless, this won’t be the first case, for the same and similar things will already happen prior to this in different countries of the Earth from their scientists, as a result of their research; it’s just that the world public will learn almost nothing about this, like also not about the cloning attempts regarding humans and animals. 26. Even in the current time, many series of experiments like these are already running in scientific laboratories around the world; it’s just that these are concealed, and to be sure, with the full authorization of the irrational and irresponsible genetic opponents; therefore, ways of inhibiting progress are thought of by those who, out of complete ignorance and often influenced by sectarianism, try to restrain the development themselves, and to them, all unfair means are right, and this will also remain so in the new millennium, at least in the first two decades. Billy: Idiotic, especially when one considers that the progress cannot be stopped, not even when lunatics rant against it. But so it has always been on the Earth, for there have always been pathological idiots, who didn’t want to allow the progress, who braced themselves against it, and with this, often caused much disaster, by what means often many people lost their lives, who may have been saved if the progressive had been allowed, especially with regard to medicine and food preparation, etc. source link Here is a link that might be useful: Contact Report 215 This post was edited by konrad___far_north on Sat, Nov 9, 13 at 21:43

I have a soil test kit I'm waiting to use as soon as the garden dries out from the recent rains and I'm sure it will be informative. The temperatures here in Sacramento are extreme and in a hot summer can go over 110� in the day and have a nighttime temperature in the low 50�s, which for some varieties can be both too hot AND too cold. Usually it's not quite that bad, usually around a 30�+ spread, say 95/60. The hybrid varieties grown commercially here are developed for these specific conditions...and they grow pretty much as far as the eye can see here (just not in MY garden). One reason I suspected temperature was that when fruit does set on these bushes, it's always at the bottom of the plants where the leaves are densest and closest to the still-warm soil during the night. There is no (0) rainfall from spring until autumn and the daytime temperatures and blazing sun usually scalds any fruit not protected by dense foliage. As I already said, I don't know of any gardener here who has had any success with heirlooms, so I can't ask for advice on what works and how. The local big nursery stocks seedlings for the varieties people hear are great on TV or the net and ask for -- but often aren't suitable for these _local_ conditions, which are unusual. Some commercial growers here have started growing heirlooms for the local market and have pronounced them "difficult" and doing better in "poorer" soil -- whatever that actually means. I don't know what varieties they use. Assuming I'm all wrong about the temperatures and it's the soil, SPECIFICALLY what sort of soil problems should I be looking for when I test? What varieties are most likely to work in these conditions?

Worth a bump to keep on P1. Finished Kitchen comong soon.