In my view none of the heirlooms are worth any extra cost. They take less effort to make since they all produce seed that grow true to type. It takes time, effort and research to produce hybrids.

This isn't to say that there aren't great heirloom veggies out there, simply that I don't see how their being easier to produce justifies their costing more money.

I used to prefer heirloom tomatos to hybrids for reasons of flavor, but those days I think are coming to an end. It used to be that hybrid tomatos were made for better uniformity and disease resistance and sacrificed flavor, but these days there are hybrids that have outstanding flavor and certainly there are heirlooms that really don't taste all that great.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the heirloom (open pollinated) vs hybrid distinction for any plant unless you are a seed saver.

heirloom vegetables worth the extra cost

I basically agree with the previous post. But am curious as to why you feel heirloom seeds cost so much extra? That hasn't been my experience at all. Indeed this year I am finding some of the newer hybrid varieties to be more costly than many of the old OP varieties I grow.

Granted there are a few very rare varieties out there - true heirlooms rather than the slapped on marketing label - that are more costly, but even the just average seed companies are offering whole lines of open-pollinated vegetable seeds this year.

Ferry Morse Seeds has a whole new line of OP heirloom variety seeds this year and when I picked through them today at Lowe's the seed prices were all within the same price range as the standard hybrid seeds give or take 20 cents and give you the advantage with the heirlooms of being able to save seeds and never buy them again if you wish. That's worth the extra 20 cents. ;)

Where they really stick it to you price wise is with the line of so-called "organic" seeds.

WHAT heirloom seeds produce vegetables of higher quality

That would all depend on how you define "quality". Taste? Appearance? Marketability? Taste is a personal preference and just as many swear by hybrids as by heirlooms. ;) But other than a few tomatoes, I'd say my next best preference would be for some of the heirloom bean varieties.

Dave

I, too, am a bit confused as to why you think heirloom seeds cost more than hybrids? My experience has been exactly the opposite. Burpee sends me their catalog unrequested and I was shocked this year to see their prices. Who would spend $5 for 10 hybrid tomato seeds? There are several seed catalogs (Sand Hill, Baker Creek, Pinetree) that offer heirloom seeds at VERY reasonable prices.

I grow for my own use, not to sell at market, so I find that most heirlooms are of "better quality" than hybrids, but by "better quality", I mean taste. That is my main concern in my garden. In my organic garden, I have very few pest and disease problems, so I do not need the disease resistant hybrid varieties. I find that most heirloom tomatoes taste far better and more complex than the hybrids I have tasted. The one exception is the hybrid Sungold, which I love and grow. By now, you may be able to find a perfectly round, red hybrid tomato with very good taste, but I find perfectly round, red tomatoes to be incredibly BORING. I love the beauty of different shaped and colored tomatoes. I also have not found a hybrid green bean or zucchini that comes anywhere close to the flavor of the heirloom ones that I grow.

I also save seed, so to me heirloom seeds are a much cheaper option in the long run. Personally, I would encourage you to grow heirlooms. They are quite unique and I find something special about growing a piece of history.

Bellatrix

I think maybe Justaguy's point is that heirloom seeds are easier to produce than hybrids but cost the samewhich makes them "more expensive" in the sense that the production cost savings aren't passed on to the consumer by the seed company. They're more profitable, in other words.

And if that's the point he's trying to make, I wonder if it's true? Interesting.

On the "do heirlooms look/taste/store/grow/produce/sell better" question...well, this is how wars get started.

Ed

I agree with Bellatrix ~ I haven't found heirloom and open pollinated veg seeds to be any more expensive than hybrids, and many times the opposite. Could you possibly have been looking at the Seed Savers Exchange catalog? Their prices are a bit expensive because it's one way of fundraising for their organization and seed bank. Other heirloom conservancies I think do much the same, so their prices will likely be a bit high as well. But if you save seeds, no matter the extra cost heirlooms and OPs are the better deal since you'll only have to buy them once. Even so, Pintree Garden sells quite a few heirloom and op veggies and flowers, and have great prices, service and seed.

Like Bellatrix, I find that the majority of heirlooms in general do taste better than their hybrid counterparts. It seems that breeders of hybrids in the past have focused on production, disease resistance and pretty fruit (and sometimes "long-keeping-ness" for shipping) to the detriment of taste. That may be changing now since consumers are more focused on taste these past few years. Apparently, hybridizers are listening ~ I've heard many people singing the praises of some of the new hybrids' taste.

Finally, like Dave (DigDirt) said, it also depends on what you define as "quality". If you can let us know that, we might can answer your question better. Though all bets are off regarding taste ~ it's so subjective that even if we all agree that Brandywine tomatoes are fab, you may hate them.

I prefer heirloom tomatoes myself, but agree with the others here that there are also many excellent hybrids and I certainly grow both. Seeds can be obtained by swap or trade, or for free in some instances, so I find the cost to be minimal with this approach. Plus if you save even a small amount of heirloom seed from your favorites each season you will not need to every buy again - so consider the higher price a onetime purchase, if you will. For most other things beside tomatoes, though, I plant the popular hybrids.

Hybrid tomatoes have done pretty good by me over the years. I also love the taste of several heirloom varieties, but I can no longer convince myself that maybe ~this~ is the year that I will get more than a half-dozen brandywines before the frost hits.

I payed pretty dearly for Burpees Brandy Boy hybrid, hoping that it lives up to the hype. I am also trying bloody butcher, as that is supposed to give an early harvest. We'll see.

Kay

Generally, the heirlooms appeal to me because of their taste. Almost always they have lasted and are sought because they are just so darned good. Production may not be as great as with heirlooms sometimes, but maybe that's a reason to just plant more of them, to get all you want!

Then there's the thing about having to buy the seeds only once, mentioned before. With groups like GardenWeb trading seeds, you don't even pay anything but postage. Once you find a plant that suits you to a tee, you're set for life if you keep saving seeds judiciously.

I also think of the future. Hybrid seeds are becoming more and more expensive, along with shipping costs, and eventually, the differences in quality are just not worth it to me.

And finally, I HATE being beholden to the large hybrid seed companies, trapped by their offerings. I just don't trust them because I think the profit motive will always outweigh everything else.

I'd have to agree with several other posters... heirloom/OP seed is seldom more pricey than hybrid seed. There are a few internet heirloom vendors which over-charge, IMO; I think most of those just buy from other companies, and divide packets into smaller quantities. While a few may be selling rare seed that is worth the price, as a rule, I consider this practice to be disreputable. For the most part, you can find the most popular OP seed here & on other garden forums, available for the price of postage.

Before discussing "heirloom" seed, it is worth mentioning that while all heirlooms are OP (open pollinated), not all OP seed is heirloom. There are still a few good OP breeding programs out there, such as for beans & peas, which are always OP by the time they reach the market. On the other hand, OP tomato releases have become few & far between, except from a few independent breeders. The once common public breeding programs at our land-grant universities are now a thing of the past, replaced by breeding done at the behest of corporate donors.

Whether you choose to focus on heirlooms is generally a question of your garden philosophy. As a seed saver & preservationist, I am admittedly biased in that regard... I honestly don't grow enough hybrids any more to make comparisons. Sweet corn is the only hybrid I still grow, and that is one vegetable for which hybrids hold an almost unassailable advantage.

I can tell you that growing 90% OP, I am giving up nothing in the way of yield or flavor. The conventional wisdom that heirlooms are more disease prone has a grain of truth... but I think that's over-stated. There are disease-resistant heirlooms too, it just takes a little searching to find them. My okra, eggplant, cucumbers, and many of my beans & tomatoes were selected for their disease resistance.

Then too, heirlooms do best when grown by good organic methods, with soils of high organic matter content. If you maintain your soil, heirlooms will usually do well. If you do not, and believe that chemical fertilizers are a substitute for good soil maintenance, then hybrids bred to prosper under those conditions will probably do better.

Personally, while I am anti-hybrid philosophically (for reasons which I won't debate on this thread) I don't want that to be interpreted as stating that all hybrids are bad. Many of them are in fact quite good, especially for corns & summer squashes. If you are comfortable with purchasing the seed every year, and satisfied with the results, go for it. One of the best things about gardening is: you get to choose. Heirlooms are best if phased in slowly, as you become more aware of those that perform best under your conditions. If you have enough land to try a large number of varieties each year, that will accelerate the process.

Just don't buy into the hype that hybrids are always more disease resistant, or heirlooms always more flavorful... there are winners & losers in both categories.

There's times when hybrids make sense.

If you have a less-than-ideal growing space because of soil issues/pests/etc. or limited space which you need the highest yield possible...some hybrids just plain ol' deliver.

I have friends with nematode filled soils where growing heavily resistant hybrids is a whole lot better of an idea for them than the alternatives because their land = $$ or their plot is so small they just have to grow their summer veggies there without much space for rotation.

Myself...I like cukes, but i don't pickle them and I need a cuke that will produce heavily, be sweet-ish, and be a non-burping vareity. I can either grow Armenian/English cukes which are OP and pretty nice or I can grow "Diva" hybrid or similar and get exactly what I want with a bonus of self-fruiting cukes.

That said, there's a lot of hybrid stuff out there on the open market that are great for a small handful of people, but useless for most home growers...especially corn and tomatoes.

A lot of problems, imo, with the whole hybrid thing is the home consumer needs to get a better grasp on what they want out of the vegetable they're trying to grow.

Too many home growers will buy a pack of hybrid tomatoes from Mr. Big Box Store because that's what they have...and a lot of times what they have is a cheap mass-produced hybrid that commercial growers select for it's shipping ability and ripening time. This doesn't make "good eats" for the home grower for most of these hybrids...they're better suited for shipping across the country than going from your backyard to your dinner plate.

You're going to be stuck with whatever you plant for 60-120 days depending on what you plant and what stage you pick it...it's worth picking the right seed for what you want, be it hybrid or OP.

Probably one reason less research goes into open pollenated varieties is that when you sell a pack of open pollenated seeds that may be the last pack of that variety you sell to that buyer if they save the seeds. It may be the last pack you sell in that neighborhood of the buyer saves seeds and gives them away to their neighbors. Whereas hybrid seeds have to be rebought when the pack runs out. As for myself, I usually only plant part of a pack each year so a pack of tomato seeds for instance may last me two or three years.
As for hybrid and open pollenated seeds costing the same, look at the net weight of the seeds. Usually packs of hybrid seeds have less seeds in them. For instance some Sun Gold tomato seeds I just bought only had 40 mg of seed in the pack, while open pollenated seeds from the same company had 100 to 150 mg of seeds, and cost less to boot.

Hi all, seems nobody has checked the 'dollar' stores for seed. Some sell 10 pks for a buck, some 4 for a buck. Dollar General sells the 4 pks for a buck, has great variety and good stock this time of year. The neat thing is the seeds are predominately heirloom and packaged by Bentley Seeds in NY. You can check the website for a complete list of the seeds. I tend to buy seeds this year for next year so that I do not have to scramble to find a particular seed. I have had great germination with the cheap seeds.
Personaly I beleive going organic gardening improves the flavor of all vegies, heirloom or not.
Disclaimer:I do not have stock or ownership interests in any of the above referenced companies.

Dollar Stores are a good source! Thanks for reminding me of them. ;)

I keep hoping we'll hear back from Meghan. Let us know if any of this helps. If you can tell us where you have been buying this expensive heirloom seeds we can likely put her on to some of the better sources.

Would also like to hear specifically what heirlooms you prefer to grow.

Dave

Hi Dave, the Bentley list(dollar general) is predominate for me, however, my preferences are: all lettus ('cept iceburg), yellow banana peps as well as bell, spinach blomsdale (easy to grow), yellow stringbeans (rockquencourt, too), bush peas, limas, (boy this makes me hungry) ect, ect. I also like Rorher seeds from Lancaster County. We get the other greens from them, like Amaranth and so on, seed potatoes. Best regards.

I believe that heirlooms are a much better bargain than hybrids. I bought a TON of seeds this year for about 50 bucks. All the seeds I bought this year are heirlooms. Not only was the initial cost LESS than it would have been to go with hybrids, but any of them that I decide to SAVE for future years will cost me NOTHING but time and effort. Gardening is a passion of mine, so seed saving would just be an extension of something I love, not an added burden.

Secondly, I like the idea of selecting the strongest of my plants to save my seeds for future years. If things go as I hope, I might be able to produce "heirloom" seeds that are even more productive in my area than the ones I purchased.

I don't plan to save any biennials this year, but in the future, I think that it would be fun to try my hand at that as well. For this year, I have plenty to experiment with!

Gardening is fun to me, and it is fun that allows me to eat the fruit of my labor. Heirlooms add an extra dimension, and adds a little history to the process as well. I enjoy growing plants that my ancestors may have grown in the past, as well as trying new plants that have a storied past as well.

But, if it costs more, you are looking in the wrong places. There are a lot of sources for heirloom seeds, and almost all of them offer heirlooms for LESS than or the same price as the hybrids. The exceptions are the truly RARE heirloom varieties. If you are looking to grow them, you have to be willing to pay the initial price for them, BUT if you save the seed, it is a one time investment!

i think there expensive because you get free seeds that are true from the fruit and you dont have to buy anymore.so they want to make more money because you might not be a repeating customer.am i wrong?

statixc

But heirlooms aren't more expensive than hybrids except very rarely. [For instance, a major heirloom seed provider may have an unavoidable crop failure (caused by a plague of insects or a Katrina or weird weather conditions accompanying climate change) so the heirloom seed may cost more one year than another than a popular hybrid that's carried by all the large seed companies.]

If you'll check out the websites of companies that sell heirlooms and hybrids both, you'll find that generally they cost the same or the hybrids are more expensive.

Heirloom seed buyers are often repeat customers, though usually not for the seeds they bought before unless they failed to save them. Heirloom lovers usually want to purchase lots of heirloom tomato seed packets to discover the ones that most suit them, and there are hundreds to choose from!

that is true about picking the right tomatoe,you just keep buying until you start lying.

My main reasons for heirloom or OP varieties is to save seeds...yes I am a seed saver and love that end of gardening just as much as the eating. I also make sure to pick up monsanto free seeds for this purpose. I do find the flavor of a few non-heirloom varieties that I prefer, especially super sweet corn...I just don't bother saving their seeds, it is one type of seed I purchase year by year. As for the rest of my veggies, I prefer to save the seeds....makes for a nice hobby in addition to growing. Oh yeah, then there is trading....please don't get me started on that! Kim

p1om

Where do you get free Monsanto seeds?

anney, not free seeds but Monsanto-free seeds. The Monsanto seeds are GMO, genetically modified seeds. They develop seeds such as soybeans that are ammune to things like Round Up. Below is a link for further information.

There are no GMO seeds available to home gardeners, Monsanto or otherwise.

Dave

If you're concerned about eatting GMOs you're pretty much not allowed to eat anything pre-packaged in this nation...including basic ingredients in some cases. Almost all our soy (which is in a LOT of things we eat because we don't actually eat much soy vs. what we use it for in other foods) is GMO.

The future of GMO is going beyond what we know it now, though.

BASF is veeeeeeeeeery close to a genetic modification breakthrough that will change the whole game...well, they got the breakthrough...they just need to mass implement it before the laws can question them and their method.

BASF is gonna be a very big player in this game in the future.

BASF's method...technically...isn't GMO as we define it by law. They've developed a method for "turning on/off - modifying" the plant's OWN genes without introducing a foreign gene (the current method).

Clearfield will be the next Roundup for some growers who use this new tech.

But yeah...most all of this is for grain/field crops. Corn, canola (the first BASF project on the fasttrack), rice, etc...

There are no GMO seeds available to home gardeners, Monsanto or otherwise.
Dave

So then Dave, does this mean that companies like Baker Creek are using this as a scare tactic or advertising ploy? I just received seeds that state non GMO seeds. Do you think they are trying to scare us? I would prefer to not have GMO foods as much as possible and am aware that most foods purchased may be such but that doesn't mean I have to grow them myself. All this is very new to me and I am still learning...I certainly don't want to pass along wrong information.

Hi Plant-one-on-me,

I think many seed companies state that they sell "no GMO seeds" because they get so many people asking "Are any of your seeds GMO?". Of course, I may be naive and it might just be an advertising gimmick! Still, I know several seed companies that make a point of saying that none of their seeds are GMO, so it is not just Baker Creek.

I think some people (myself included) make a point of not buying seed that originally came from Monsanto as a way of not giving Monsanto any money. Monsanto gobbled up the seed company Seminis and sells non-GMO seeds through regular catalogs like Burpee, etc. It's tricky to know which seed in the catalogs originally came from Monsanto. I've had many an internal discussion with myself over my moral principles versus my desire to try an onion from Monsanto. This is particularly ironic in my case, as Monsanto was once my sister company and I was stuck with their stock in my 401K. I was not a happy camper.

Any way, hope that clears it up some.
Bellatrix

"does this mean that companies like Baker Creek are using this as a scare tactic or advertising ploy?"

If you sell corn or soybeans non-GMO means something.

GMO, unfortunately, is in our food supply in non-GMO planted crop. Corn, beans, etc...we're eatting the sexually produced seeds as the end-product and NO crop of GMO out there is 100% sterile.

GMO-free can only be claimed with a test which they or their suppliers do.

There is no gimmick going on...

Seriously, if any of you are anti-GMO you are going to have to make some VERY serious changes to your diet. GMO corn and soy is everywhere and in nearly everything. It is a firm part of our food system. Soybeans to most people in the US is not a legume you steam/stirfry/boil and eat...it's in almost everything processed we eat, though...similar thing going on for corn only most of that corn is eatten by the animals we eat (chicken/beef/pork).

Sorry I feel as if I highjacked the thread but thanks for the information on GMO and Monsanto. Kim

Going way back to Justaguy's first comment that heirlooms "take less effort to make since they all produce seed that are true to type". That's not quite true for quality OP seed growing operations. There is the roguing of "off" types, choosing the quality "fruits" from which to take seed and other tasks that are required to produce top end OP seed. It's not just plant,harvest and sell. Tom

There is the roguing of "off" types, choosing the quality "fruits" from which to take seed and other tasks that are required to produce top end OP seed. It's not just plant,harvest and sell.

Wouldn't all of this be true for hybrids as well? In the case of hybrids multiple varieties have to be bred and cross bred, not just one. I would imagine some form of quality assurance would have to be applied to each of the varieties involved in producing the hybrid.

Having said that, I didn't mean to imply heirlooms are, on the average, more expensive than hybrids. Rather I just went with the OP who said or implied s/he was finding heirloom seed was more expensive than hybrid seed ans was soliciting opinions of if/when OP seed was worth more than hybrid seed.

To that my reply was 'Heirlooms aren't worth more, unless you are a seed saver'. or something along those lines.

"Wouldn't all of this be true for hybrids as well? "

Hybrids are generally from VERY stable parental lines...most of them with weird names like "NC EBR-7" and other such stuff you'll never see in the stores. These parental stocks very segregated and carefully maintained.

You have a very great chance of getting exactly what you need out of your hybrids from size of plant to how vigorously/quickly it sets fruit and all points in between.

NCBR-7 + NCBR-8 = plum crimson hybrid tomato. This cross is stable and able to be sold with great certainty after the cross.

You'll never see either of the parents for sale at a general seed store or catalog.

I would go for Heirloom seeds. They are "open-pollinated", meaning they preserve all the qualities of their parents. Hybrid varieties are worthless for replanting, so you have to buy them every year. Seeds saved from hybrids will either be sterile or will begin reverting to one of the parent varieties.

Justaguy, I wasn't disagreeing with you on the $ value of heirlooms, just wanted to point out that growing OP seed is more than a "no work" plant and harvest operation.
Tom

To jump in way at the end here, I think the comparison that would be more valid concerned which is "more work" would be the complete cycle from "seed to seed".

As far as heirloom goes, it is a pretty basic plan for "seed to seed" - plant seeds, grow plants, pick quality fruit, save seeds. (While each step has some more complexity than I enumerated, it really is that "simple"). There is very little cross-pollination between tomatoes (although it CAN happen). If you are worried about it, a simple net can be placed over your fruit branch that you want to save the seeds for, and not worry about cross-pollination, as most tomatoes self-pollinate.

Compared to hybrids, you cannot go from "seed to seed" in most cases. So there is no cycle. You MUST purchase new seeds every year (that have been crossed from their parents, year after year to produce new hybrid seeds).

If you want to talk about economics - there is NO comparison! Even if heirlooms were twice as expensive as hybrids (which is not the case for the spectrum of varieties available), it would still be more economical in the long run to go with heirlooms and save the seeds. Tomato seeds are viable (if properly stored for up to 4 or 5 years - many times longer), so you could save yourself the hassle of saving seeds every year and just save MORE seeds than you need and save them every second year or every third year.

In short, heirlooms can be a one time investment, if you so choose - hybrids are a yearly expense. (And yes, I did mean to use the different terms - investment vs. expense.)