bump - surely somebody knows someone. Maybe not, buehl. I just checked the "Where do you live?" threads from March and last Sept. Nobody said they live in W. VA. The closest I saw was probably poppy 214 who lives near Shenandoah National Park. I don't think the DC surrounds would be much help on blasting.

Why fight mother nature?

OK, I'll try to be a little more helpful. I'd look closely at nearby houses and see if there are basements in any of them. If not then I'd assume its likely pretty costly.

I looked at a house in Spokane once that had a giant basalt boulder in the basement! Not that that helps you any, but I was just reminded of that... Have you talked to any RE agents in the area about how common are basements there? If they are, there must be a fair amount of experience locally.

I agree with Stan Z. If this is going to be a retirement home, are you sure you want a basement or stairs for that matter? I am fairly biased against stairs because I am clumsy. One I perfected falling when I was going up stairs, I decided I did not need to get better at it! You could call a local person like Digging and Rigging to get an idea of what it costs here in the DMV? They may also do work in West Virginia. I only know of this company because they do a lot of commercial work in Moco and I notice the Liebherr trucks

Good luck!

Thank you everyone!

I did the same thing Suzanne, I even told my DH that I wasn't sure I'd get any responses b/c no one seems to be in WV.

First, the lot is long and shallow but triangular in shape - so we would be somewhat limited on length as well as depth b/c of the building easements.

So, let me explain what our plans are...

We want a rancher - one floor with all our every day rooms on the main floor (no stairs):

• MBR
• MBA
• Kitchen
• Walk-in Pantry
• FR
• DR
• Den/2nd bedroom
• 2nd full bathroom
• Mudroom (with room for a freezer)
• Laundry Room
• Garage with work space and room for a tractor & snow blower (instead of a shed b/c we don't know if there will be room for a detached shed)

Basement:

• Utilities (HVAC, hot water heater, etc.)
• Two bedrooms for when our kids (& their future children - I hope!) visit
• One or two bathrooms
• Media Room - my DH wants it in the basement - I tried to convince him it should be on the main floor, but he prefers it where there is very little light possible.
• Overflow storage

We do not want to deal with a slab - I've heard all the stories from people here about how they can't move this or that b/c they're on a slab - I do not want to deal with that! We also do not want to take up square footage on the main floor with utilities.

As to other houses, most do have basements. It's this particular lot that seems to have all the stone!

We've met some who live in this development and from what they've told us it appears to be a friendly neighborhood and it includes a nice golf course / country club.

The real estate agent we've been working with threw out a number of $10,000 to blast, but when he said it he seemed to be taking the # of the air, not based on any experience.

We went to a home show yesterday and I talked to a couple of architectural firms, one of which does work in WV as well as MD, so we think we're going to set up initial appointments to see what we can find out regarding their experience, etc. Maybe they'll be able to give us a ballpark figure. We will need to have an architect anyway b/c:

(1) I don't like any plans I've seen elsewhere - especially the kitchens :-)

and

(2) If we do purchase this lot, we will definitely need help designing a home with the lot constraints.

Homepro - thanks, they might definitely be someone to talk to as well. BTW, they have a Morgantown location so it looks like they are in WV. (Although Hagerstown, MD, is much closer to Shepherdstown, WV). Their Frederick and Clarksburg locations are not far from where we live right now (we're in Howard County).

There was a This Old House episode this week where they showed details about the blasting process for a new build. Was fascinating, but I kept wondering if the chance for radon is higher if one builds on a ledge...Radon remediation would be an additional expense.

One more thing to consider if you do build with the basement is to plan for a future elevator, just in case. That can easily be done by making a reinforced closet on both floors. For now it's extra storage and if you ever need it, it can be retrofitted.

CPArtist...I was thinking of something similar - but my DH isn't on board with it - yet! (I'll convince him, eventually!)

Gramarosw...Most likely, but radon remediation isn't that expensive - we had to handle it in our current home b/c we live in high-radon area. I think this part of the country (mid-Atlantic) has high radon whether you blast or not.

You could put the guest rooms, baths, and media room on a second level (or over a very large detached garage/storage area). Definitely see how this could work without a basement (since we live in California).

We are in the Midwest where basements are easy. We love our basement and will be building another. So I can certainly understand why you want one in your new home. Like Autumn, I can't wait to see your kitchen. so exciting.

We just replaced a main floor forced air furnace with an HVAC unit placed in the attic. I now have a lovely vacuum/broom closet in a handy spot. The new unit also allowed us to get rid of all the floor mounted heater vents and replace them with ceiling mounted vents. Much better.

I agree on not wanting a slab for all the reasons you mentioned, but crawl spaces work well, at least in CA. I've never lived in seriously cold country though. I once froze my backside off visiting DS in N. VA in the winter once. Now I know why Bean sells those insulated jeans.

Thanks everyone!

I think the slab is the biggest issue with just going up instead of down. While I know that some people put their HVAC in the attic, I've read it's not ideal. And, in a cold climate the last place you want your registers for heat is in the ceiling - you need them in or near the floor b/c heat rises. If we were in a hot-year-round climate, that would be better, but WV in the mountains is not that! Even here in MD we have cold winters and it's best to have floor vents. Ideally, the A/C would be connected to a venting system with ceiling vents and the furnace would be connected to a separate system with floor vents! We do have cold & warm air returns near the ceiling and near the floor - we open/close them depending on the season.

Both my DH and I laughed at your comments Autumn4 & ILoveRed! My DH turned to me and asked me what the status of the Kitchen design is! Almost finished - but of course it will have to fit with whatever house design we end up with - once we finally purchase a lot and start designing the entire house in earnest! (I warned both architects that I will be designing the Kitchen and that they had the rest of the house. But I also told them that I understand you cannot design the interior or exterior in a vacuum, that both need to be designed together.) [Hint: Right now, no island! Both my DH and I agreed we did not want an island in the middle of the Kitchen acting as an obstacle! Also, I've discovered that I am someone who likes to prep next to my cooktop instead of across from it.]

++++++++++++++++

I've always had a basement. So, how do crawl spaces work?

Are they poured/built like a basement only much shorter?

How do you work in them if, for example, you wanted to move the plumbing or add a gas line?

Are they insulated so the cold air is not running under the house in the winter (or the hot air in the summer)?

This: " Also, I've discovered that I am someone who likes to prep next to my cooktop instead of across from it." Me too! I am smitten with all of the designs with windows on 2 sides, window over the prep space and the sink and range on the same wall but not necessarily separated by a corner. Anyhow. I do miss my peninsula somewhat too (I wasn't expecting that). ;)

Back to your rock/basement question - IL's have a crawl space with the furnace, water heater and storage stuff in it. They actually have a little cart on wheels that they can sit on to get around should they need too. There is no way you can stand up in that part of the basement. Their furnace was horizontal vs. vertical too. I had never seen one of those. So yes I think poured like a basement only shorter - maybe 4 ft? They have a bi-level so part of it is a full walk out basement and then part of it is crawlspace. There is a door kind of and I don't *think* it has heating and cooling vents but it's not freezing in there by any means.

In northern CA everything seems to be built on a perimeter foundation (no slabs here!) so there is space between ground and the house is just a few feet up. Many of the houses near me are on hills so like mine have part basement and part crawlspace. The crawlspace just has dirt or rock or whatever the ground is - no cement or foundation. The ones on flat ground mostly put the HVAC, etc on the main floor (or sometimes just a tiny one room short basement space for this stuff). It's much easier than slab for re-plumbing, etc, but you do have to work in a confined space where you can't stand up. At least everything is visible - which it wouldn't be with a finished basement. The crawlspace isn't heated, but our basement and crawlspace stay a nice 60 most of the year - a bit colder in winter maybe. Not sure how this works or if this is done in cold weather climates though.

My in-laws built there retirement house on granite ledges of coastal Maine. They did blast into the stone but only to set supports. They worked the design of the house around the counters between the ledges. There was a walk-in bulk head storage space, not accessible from indoors. The lower level of the house had a large utility room,2 guest bedrooms, den and laundry.

Our former neighbors blasted their property to build their house. You might not be able to do this on 2/3 of an acre, but what they did was blast out a pond, and then they used the dirt and rubble to build up the property in the spot where they put the house. A second neighbor did only a crawl space. A third neighbor did a raised ranch. (So for you: Raised ranch with elevator?)

I recently purchased an investment property with a crawl space and have learned much about them. It should be a part of the conditioned envelope of the home, basically a short basement. The document linked below has drawings and details of each foundation type and will be helpful with your decisions. We will be building our retirement home in the next few years, and I'm sticking to a basement as that's what I've always had here in the Midwest. My preference is walkout basements. This website has an abundance of technical info for builders and can be a great reference during your project: Building Science.

My sister recently built a home on a site they were forcing to work against Mother Nature and it's been a nightmare of cost overrun and now drainage issues. With the two problems of lot size/shape and the rock, isn't there a better site?

Hi, welcome to Jefferson County. Sheperdstown is an awesome community!

This is a lead, not an endorsement, but there is a company called Kubic Construction that has been in business around here for at least 15 years, they do larger site prep jobs. There are no shortage of excavators in the area. I have to admit it's pretty unusual to have to blast into ledge around here, not that there isn't a lot of it, it's the Blue Ridge ;) I can't imagine there is such a land shortage as that. Will you be on city sewer? It sounds like there may not be room for a drainage field.

Come to think of it, I would have a little concern about blasting if you are on top of the Karst formations (underground rivers in limestone caves, prone to sinkholes).

Casey

Beuhl.....no island?! So, will you have a pretty table in your kitchen like so many of LL's pics? How fun.

I live in a house with a crawl space now. I would not recommend them. I would consider building on slab and then put a false floor (4-6" high) in place to run things like water, gas and electric. My crawlspace is vented and will cost quite a bit to convert to an unvented crawls space. I am working on it slowly. It is almost impossible to seal the crawl space from rodents and other invaded including spiders and jumping camel crickets.

One of the things I would also get rid of if I were building new is the HVAC system. I would use a combination of radiant heat in the flooring and mini splits. Mini splits don't require internal ductwork runs and allow you to zone spaces for comfort rather than the whole house. I know Mushcreek built an ICF home and that is what I would build too. The energy efficiency, termite proof properties, sound proof properties make this a great option. You could also do something like a ICF slab with SIPS walls and roofs. Insulating your house to the hilt will help to minimize future utility bills!

Good luck!

Here's another idea. Split the difference. Can you do a walk out basement? Put HVAC and media room in basement- blast out an L kind of thing, put extra bedrooms upstairs like a large cape. Friends of ours have a walkout basement like that with a wall of windows- It's not like the basements I grew up with!! Washer and dryer then go in 1st floor bedroom. It makes for a sort of 3 floors (you'll rarely go up since they are spare rooms), also helps with lot issues since footprint is smaller.

Since it's WV, I am hoping there are hills to carve into!

Heather

Thanks again everyone! Sorry I'm taking so long to get back to you, it was a long day at work!

Those of you who are questioning the lot are right, there are other lots out there. We have already looked at a few neighborhoods but found that of all, we really like this one. We met a couple who live there and they were telling us about the rest of the neighborhood - how friendly everyone is, the HOA is active socially, that a fair # of residents were also retirees (as was this couple) but there are still younger families, etc. It just seemed like a welcoming and friendly place.

We did meet people in a couple of other neighborhoods, but none seemed quite as friendly as the first one.

The other thing is that it's a country club neighborhood (Cress Creek) with a golf course for my DH, a pool, etc. All in all, it was the best of several places we looked at and it is in a great location visually - on a hill looking out onto trees in all directions, etc.

+++

But, my DH and I have been talking and we think that you all are probably right - it's time to look for another lot, despite how we feel about this one. It will be hard to let go and find something that we both like, but I think we'll keep looking. One thing we do not want is a "production builder" development - that's why we're looking at land so we can build what we want.

+++

Casey - do you live in the Shepherdstown area? Do you have any recommendations for places to look? We've been working with a realtor, but it would be nice to have someone who doesn't have money in the game to give us some ideas for places to look at.

+++

ILoveRed - no island and no table! I grew up with at table in the middle of the kitchen and do not want to do that again! Of course, I wouldn't have the tight aisles my parents have around their table, but still, it was/is an obstacle. No, I like a somewhat shallow but wide "U" with the Prep & Cooking Zones and then the Cleanup Zone in a straight row outside the "U", something like what we have now - it's proven to be very, very functional.

I was originally toying with the idea of an "L" with an island, but the more I work with that idea, the more I keep coming back to the "U". I haven't quite given it up yet, but it's becoming less and less desirable.

Different/bigger Pantry, though, and I'd arrange appliances a little differently.

Oh I'm so excited for you Buehl!

Sounds like you may have ruled that lot out already, but I was going to say, making a basement in rock is going to be a little tough.

Blasting? I have no idea on that. But we live on the Big Island. It's pretty much all lava rock, so no basements here of course.

Sorry if this is TMI, but I just was thinking, doesn't poop need to flow downhill? If you blast a big hole and put in a bathroom, where is the septic? Would that need to be blasted even lower?

Another thought, how close is close to that river? Would it effect your basement if that river ever flooded? Could it become the swimming pool? Ha!

I have no doubt you have considered all this, but these were my initial thoughts anyways, not knowing the details. :-)

I know you were originally really trying for that island in your kitchen. You only came to realize, thanks to GW, that you didn't have enough isle space. I totally love it that at one point you were also just learning. You can relate to all us newbies. You get it!

Now that you have the opportunity to do a whole new build, I think it's awesome that you are now questioning doing an island at all. I think we definitely get accustomed to what works for us.

Now that you have lived with a wonderfully functional kitchen, without an island, you have realized it isn't something you need or even want.

I do have my island now, but honestly, I still miss my u shaped kitchen.

I have no doubt your new home, and more specifically your kitchen, will be absolutely perfect! :-))))))

Buehl,

Sounds like you are making a wise decision. WE had another home we were in LOVE with, put it an offer, our house sold, then 3 weeks before close, my buyers backed out for the financial commitment.

We ended up in a completely different style of home, and it's better for us in so many ways. There are so many stories like this.You'll find a great spot!

Hi,

I live in the "county seat". lol.

My ex-BIL was mayor of Shep-town!

I have a good friend who is with Long & Foster, but IIRC she is only really active in C-town. I'd be happy to give her your name if you wanted.

You may also consider looking just across the Potomac in Sharpsburg MD, Middletown MD, Burkittsville, etc.

This time of year we are at "peak spring" it's not always this beautiful.

Casey

I have a rental house on a crawlspace so I can answer some of your questions about that:

Are they poured/built like a basement only much shorter?

Yes, for the most part they are built like a short basement, except often the floor will be not-level, bare dirt rather than level, poured concrete. It is highly recommended that you cover the bare dirt with heavy gauge plastic sheeting to stop moisture in the dirt from traveling into the crawlspace and to the structure above.

How do you work in them if, for example, you wanted to move the plumbing or add a gas line?

Not to be flippant, but you crawl. You crawl to where you need to work, bringing your tools and materials with you. You realize you forgot something, so you crawl back out. You crawl back in again.

At least mine is still 3 feet or so at the lowest point so it is not too bad to work in. One place we looked at had about 18" which seems like it would be a real nightmare.

Are they insulated so the cold air is not running under the house in the winter (or the hot air in the summer)?

In the past they were uninsulated spaces, with vents to the outside. They would recommend that you open the vents in the summer to allow the air to circulate, and close them in the winter to prevent pipes from freezing.

The modern recommendation is that they be sealed, insulated, and conditioned just like a basement would be. Although there are likely many places that build them the old way.

What is the lot's access to water? Is it your own well, a shared well, or city water? If you have to dig or blast for a well, factor that in. If it's city water, maybe the local building/zoning/permit folks know how to get it to the house and that might be a lead to a blaster (or whatever they're called.) Likewise, would you be connected to a city sewer system or have your own septic system? The rocky lot might be an issue there. (I am asking because we have city water and sewer, and it's nothing I've ever had to deal with; it was just there. But if I moved somewhere without access to water or sewer, then I'd have to do some research.)

If you do speak to a firm that does blasting, I'd ask about their experience doing the work within range of other existing homes (however close your nearest neighbor will be.) We had a time in our town, which is older homes with many tear-downs and in-fill builds, in which a very grandiose home with an indoor/outdoor pool (in Chicago!) was being built. The building project went south due to finances, and new owners with a new vision had to blast out the concrete pool and foundation. The blasting was so strong that nearby windows, and even a foundation or two, cracked. It was a hairy deal. I know that's probably a long shot for you... but I'd hate to see you in a similar situation.

Thanks again. We've decided to pass on the property.

To answer some of the questions - it would be on public water and sewer - the green sewer pipe is already on the property. I think the water is also there.

It has a river view - in the distance through trees, but it is much, much higher than the river. (I'm not sure if you will still see it once the trees fill out.)

So, we're on the hunt again for a property! We've found a few, although we haven't gone to see them yet. My DH and I are split on which ones we like from the listings and the view from Google Maps. My DH is looking primarily at cost; I'm looking at amenities, location (away from RR tracks & businesses!), and, finally, cost. We have different priorities! We'll work it out, we always do!

We will have more flexibility for house design if we go with a more traditionally shaped lot - another plus!

Again, thank you everyone for replying. It helped us make what I think is the right decision.