I bought appliances, sinks, faucets & some hardware through my Kitchen Design Company. I price compared & their prices were better than what I could get on my own. I'd also wonder where else the KD is going to overcharge you. Are you using her GC, plumber, electrician, etc? I'd have a frank talk & question her about the upcharges and let her know you may consider other options.

Our GC/KD gave us allowances for items. If we purchased through one of their suppliers, it comes out of our allowances, but if we find something on our own that he can't get at a cheaper rate, then we buy on our own & he credits us the allowance. We purchased our own tile & pendants & let him handle the cabinets, countertops, faucet, disposal and electrical. He actually encouraged us to shop around to find what the best prices were - even with plumbing fixtures, countertops & other items that he would purchase. If I were you, I'd talk to a few other KDs...

I have a real issue with anyone telling me that I have to do anything. I think I would fire that person on the spot if they told me that. Not sure why you you need someone to tell you what type of lighting to buy, because those are small details that can be easily accomplished later. Heck if you have the wires already ran, you can install them yourself for free. And if you are building a new house or redesigning a new room, just have the wires run and install later or get the cheapest they offer.

Pushy people usually have their own agenda, and it doesn't include your best interest.

Plumbers for example sometimes like to buy their own stuff so that they have everything on hand because sometimes customers don't know all the parts they need.

This, however, seems like there is a lot of explaining to do!

You need to have a frank discussion with the KD as to how they expect to be compensated. It's just business. Of course, they aren't doing this for free. If everyone understands their role and how they are going to get paid, there won't be hurt feelings or lawsuits.

I prefer hiring a designer for their planning and paying them a fee for their services. This way, they know they are going to get paid. Then, if they can get me a better price on something, they pass it on to me without a markup.

Usually, I buy my own fixtures and appliances. I pay designers by the project or hours of work. As an example, my plumber will buy fixtures and warrant them. But, if I can get them for less, he is happy to install them and does not warrant them. He only warrants the installation. With a new item, I really don't need him to warrant a toilet or a sink.

It's time to be upfront and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction. I'd go ahead and buy the sink while it is on sale.

"She told me that then warranty for installation won't be covered if I buy sink from HD."

Why would an installation warranty be voided if it is an identical sink that is being installed? And what does her "installation warranty" actually cover that would warrant that kind of upcharge? Why would someone need an "installation" warranty on a sink anyway? Sounds like they want you to pay them to warrant their work.

Greenwood,

I am certainly not married to this designer. I have not given her retainer and signed anything which is binding.

romy718,

Yes, I was planning to this KD as a GC and also use her plumbers/electricians etc. She said that she does not get paid by commission. It appears that her company makes tons of money by markup on these fixtures because they make it mandatory to buy from them. If a client does not buy from her, then there is no warranty. She said that she won't consider any client who buys her own fixtures except appliances. I have a serious problem with that.

Steph,

My designer is not telling me what pendant to buy. I have already selected the pendant. She wants me to buy everything (except appliances) through her. Otherwise, she won't take my business. Needless to say, she won't be my designer. I am meeting a new designer next Saturday. I will see how he operates in these type of issues.

Thank you,

Mindy

Yeah, it sounds like you were picking up what she was trying to put down. Good job at cutting ties before you got too deep.

"As an example, my plumber will buy fixtures and warrant them."

Don't manufacturers warrant the product? Why would one need their contractor to warrant a product that already had a warranty through the manufacturer? I would rather pay for my own fixtures and handle any warranty claims myself. My plumber that I used for my kitchen and two bath remodels suddenly moved out of the state. Thankfully, I have the receipts for all my fixtures because I supplied them myself. I'd be in trouble if I had to contact him for warranty issues.

Get some other comparable bids & see how the total costs compare. Are you buying cabinets through this KD? If yes, is it possible her cabinet markup is less? While they have to make a profit, a markup of $400 per pendant seems outrageous. Does that include running the electric & installation of the pendants? Your situation reminds me of interior design fees. Even though two two different ID's may end up with the same profit margin, sometimes the way the charges appear are just unpalatable. Or maybe she is just that good or the Northern Va area is a hot reno market. You sound like you've gotten pretty far in the design process if you're already choosing pendant lighting. Post your plan here & let the layout gurus take a look.

The only value that the KD brings is the design but any competent KD can do that.

Unfortunately what you're experiencing is typical in the industry. When I first started last year, a KD quoted me $6000 for the design plan, $1800 for the Stages 45, $6000 for a pantry insert and ballparked $50k for my cabinets without installation.

I ended up doing my own design and bought the Stages for $800.

Another designer told me that her design consultation fee is $15k retainer fee plus upcharge of 30% on anything I buy. I had to guarantee buying the cabinets through her. This is normal in the area and I did that type of contract 18 yrs ago. I wasted $50K and the whole family hated the house and kitchen for 18 yrs.

Shop around and find someone whose business model is something you can live with.

Jellytoast,

Read the next sentence. If I buy them myself, I get the manufacturer's warranty. I think that's plenty good enough. I buy my own fixtures.

I think we are all in agreement that this designer and their business practices are not going to be compatible with this client.

My GC keeps 2 KDs on staff. His KDs prefer to research and suggest the cabinets and fixtures based on my taste and requirements, and they prefer to source fixtures and bring them to the site. (Cabinets are nonnegotiable; they provide them or you go elsewhere.) For this service, they charge a 10% premium on everything, and warranty everything. This 10% premium gets me very good service. (They once drove an hour and a half round-trip just to adjust the way lightbulb screwed into a socket in a fixture they had provided.)

But it bit me in the butt once on a sink I sourced for the laundry room when it did not fit the cabinet. That bothered me a bit, because I had provided them with the model number of the sink, and the cabinet was supposed to have been ordered to fit the sink. The sink was the thing. Not the cabinet. But there you go. Live by the sword, die by the sword. I saved a lot of money sourcing certain things myself, and going without their warranty.

I guess my take on your KD is that the policy is not exactly wrong, but her mark up seems high, especially on those lighting fixtures. And if she is not in-house with a contractor, then it is a rip off, plain and simple. IMHO.

Jellytoast,

As far as I understand, manufacturers give warranty for the operation of the equipment/appliance/fixture etc. Their warranty does not cover the installation problems. Last year I bought a fixer upper townhouse as one of my rental properties. I completely renovated it and bought brand new appliances with service plans from HH Gregg. After the tenant moved in, within a couple of weeks, the dishwasher started leaking. When I called Frigidaire, they told me that it appears like an installation problem and it was not covered and I need to call HH Gregg. So a technician was sent by HH Gregg and the problem got fixed in less than 10 minutes.

romy718,

Yes, I am buying my cabinets from her. In my area (No VA), I seriously doubt that there is any designer who will take my business if I do not buy the cabinets from her. These cabinets are Wood Mode. I met this KD for 2 hours. After 1/2 hr. she told me that my cabinets will cost me $40K for 250 sq, ft. kitchen without all the bells and whistles I want. When the meeting was over, her figure for my cabinets reached to $80K with all the bells and whistles. It was pretty shocking to see that all the bells and whistles will cost me extra $40K. Her markup of $400 for the pendant does include all the wiring and installation etc. You are right. No VA is pretty hot area for kitchen renovation. I am not at all pretty far in my design process. It is the KD who brought up the pendant issue. She saw the picture of the pendant from my idea book and she remembered it. During our meeting, I observed many times that KD was focused on talking about products and their costs rather than listening to me what I want and need from this renovation. After spending 2 hours, I still feel this KD does not know exactly what I want in my kitchen. She definitely does have my idea book. I am definitely meeting other designers who will be more patient listeners. I will definitely post my layout when it is ready.

beachem,

how and from where you bought Stages sink for $800.00? Was it 45" Stages?

MizLizzie,

This KD told me that she will be in-house with the contractor only once a week, not on a daily basis. That also made me quite nervous.

Thank you,

Mindy

If you want more handholding than a once a week site visit during the construction phase, you will find that prices will go up from this transparent pricing model. The majority of hand holding is done during the design phase. Time is money in either phase, and time is never free. It may just be bought in a less transparent manner from someone else. The designer is talking about costs to you so that you can have an overall feel for the totals, and the services that your money is buying. It's a better model than being presented with a $150K bill and a hand out for an immediate check, don't you think?

Sure, you can probably save some markup by buying elsewhere, but at that point, you are the one who is responsible for coordinating everything else. You're stepping into the role of designer and GC. Part of the fee that you are paying goes to have them be responsible for coordinating specs and making sure things work. Their services are not gratis. They receive compensation. And that shouldn't be shocking to anyone. Do you want that responsibility? Are you willing to, pay what that really costs when you screw up something?

BTW, $300 to run wire, and install a new fixture, plus markup is a pretty good price for NorVA.

Homchef59, while I quoted you, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just speculating. :-)

Okay, I misunderstood. Is your KD saying that price for the lighting fixture is for the fixture, installed? That is a different thing.

Sophie,

I NEVER said that I expected free things. I have NO right or expectation to expect anything free from anyone in life. That is not the way I live my life. it is fine for a KD to talk about money. But I feel first KD needs to talk to me about my needs and wants and then she should lead toward costs of the items. I am not the one who needs to have handholding during construction. It is her project (and my renovation) and her business reputation which is on the line in case something goes bad or wrong during construction. The only reason I posted this message was to know the experiences of other Houzzers. After all, I have never hired a designer and I want to know if these business practices are normal, abnormal and just plain outrageous.

MizLizzie,

KD's price for each pendant is $500.00. It is installed price. That pendant is available for about $100.00 each online.

This KD was more focused on me signing the form for retainer. She gave me form 3 times in my hand. Eventually I did tell her that I need to think and I am not ready yet.

Question to all Houzzers.......when I met this KD yesterday, I told her that I also need powder room renovation and family room. She has a separate retainer amount requirement for each part, kitchen, powder room and family room. She is charging $1800 for kitchen, $1000 for family room and $800 for powder room. Is this a normal practice to charge retainer for each part of the project?

Thank you,

Mindy

@Sahai I got mine on Craigslist from a plumbing liquidator. It was brand new but the outside cardboard box was dented so Ferguson got rid of it. He had 3 that were listed for 8 months before I called.

In the past 12 months, I've seen 3 brand new Stages 45 on liquidation. One was at the local Ferguson parts warehouse two months ago.

All the prices were around $800.

The Ferguson manager was willing to sell to me for $500 if I had needed a second Stages 45.

Check eBay and Craigslist. Call your local large plumbing retail place and ask about liquidators they use or sell to. I got a list of the most prolific liquidators from Ferguson and they keep an eye out for what I want if that inventory comes in.

I got my Kohler Karbon for $500 also from a Craigslist liquidator and hunting for a second one. So far I've missed three brand new Karbons because I took too long before calling (3-4 weeks). There were 5 I missed on eBay. The prices were all around $500-550.

Check ebay often. I bought my Whitehaven for $601 + $200 shipping. Amazon gets $1434 and designer wanted $1516

Is the wiring, electric boxes, and switches already in place for the pendant lights or is that also included in the $500/light estimate?

beachem,

I have always been nervous of buying anything from Craigslist. I have heard so many horror stories about scams related to Craigslist.

When you buy from liquidators, how does the warranty work? If the fixture turns out to be defective, will the manufacturer replace/repair the product considering it was bought from a liquidator?

I have no problem buying anything from Ferguson. It is a well known company. Do you get e-mail notification from Ferguson regarding liquidation sale?

Wendy,

I have always thought that on ebay only used stuff is sold. At least that used to be their business model when it started. How do you make sure whatever you are buying from ebay/Craigslist, it is brand new and not used?

Stan Z,

My current kitchen has only recessed lights and they came with the house. I just need 2 small pendants over my island. So wiring and switches are already there. I am not an electrician. So I am assuming that a separate or different type of electric box will be needed to install 2 pendants. Electrician will have to remove 2 existing recessed lights over the island area and install 2 pendants. So designer's $500 price for each pendant includes the fixture and electric box.

Thank you,

Mindy

Your new pendants will need complete rewiring and a new switch. Your recessed lights should not be on the same circuit as the pendants. You want independent control. $500 is a fair price for a new install with wiring, etc. 20% is a fair and standard markup on materials costs. The separation of the retainer is also fair. I'm thinking that your concerns are because of the lack of reassurance that your process is normal.

OK, if the $500x2=$1000 includes two $100 fixtures subtracting that off leaves $800. I'll assume you don't have other can lights on the same circuit that you want to keep. Removing the old can lights, opening up the ceiling in the new location, installing bracing between joists, installing two J-boxes, rewiring, hanging two fixtures, and patching up all ceilings I think you'd be hard pressed to hire that out to a licensed electrician for much less. Plus you'd likely find that the electrician would refer you to a drywall repair guy who would charge $50-100 per hole to be patched. Handyman might do it for half if you can find one you trust to do electrical (there's plenty I wouldn't). Unfortunately you live in a high cost of living area. We were looking at a new build last year before we bought this older house in a high cost of living area on the other coast and noted that the builder was charging $250 to add each J box plus another $150 to add a switch which is right about what you are being quoted. You can always call your electrician and get a quote for it as a separate job.

We've been planning our remodel for 6 months and are about to sign a contract. The kitchen design/build firms we like best are also the busiest (imagine that). They will give us a rough quote based on sketches we've provided but won't come out to the house to measure or provide a detailed quote until a contract is signed with a design retainer. It's a busy time in this field.

live wire,

You are right. Electrician will need to modify/adjust the current wiring location to install the pendants. I am not sure that I will need or even want a new switch for pendants. Too many switches will cause confusion to me:-)

Thanks for clarifying the issue about a separate retainer for other parts of the house. Yes, I just wanted to make sure from Houzzers that what ever this KD was telling me about her prices, was a normal process. I am still upset that she does not allow her clients to buy their fixtures on their own. I can understand about cabinets and counter tops etc., but not the fixtures. She certainly was a VERY pushy saleswoman.

Stan Z,

I am not certain, but I think my other can lights in my kitchen may be on the same circuit. My husband knows this type of stuff. The only thing I know that all of my current 8 recessed lights turn on with 1 switch whether I enter my kitchen from the garage or from family room/foyer. You are right. I certainly live in a very expensive area.

In my area also, no KD will come to my house until I give them the retainer. I have certainly accepted that as it is part of the deal.

I have been planning for my kitchen for the last 1 year and still have not signed the contract. But I am getting pretty close to it:-)

Mindy

Ooops, sorry, I meant you want the pendants on a different switch than the can lights. That's going to mean running new wiring from the switch up to the place where you want the pendants as live wire oak said. Hang in there .....

The thing to remember is that the KD and contractors also know how long it takes to get parts from their suppliers, and sometimes paying $1,800 to get the sink in 1 week is a LOT better than saving $500 but its back-ordered for 3 months (not unheard of for rarer parts). Paying her more for that sink might mean counters, fixtures, back splash, final plumbing, and appliances will all go in on schedule because she WILL make sure that sink is on-site in time.

Building timelines can go to hell when the homeowner is in charge of ordering parts but forgets, orders the wrong one, the wrong part is sent, parts are damaged in transit, etc.

If a part is too expensive like those pendants, request them to install the cheapest option they have and then replace it later yourself.

Jellytoast,

Most tradespeople and repairmen will only warranty the installation on parts they provide and install. This way they know its a new and correct part, bought from a store that also warranties it, and its on them if there are any problems. Obviously, they cant warranty anything you provide, and it will be on you to pay to remove and replace, as well as deal with the product warranty replacement process.

This happens because people will try to buy low-end or used stuff to save a buck and have it installed, then bitch and moan when it fails early and want the labor to replace it for free.

She is asking for a commitment from you because it is a VERY busy time and she has spent a lot of time with you already. At no cost to you.

The relationship is at the point that you either get engaged or keep dating. Like a lot of folks who are relationship shy, you may think that there's always a better one around the corner.

But, as anyone knows, that isn't necessarily true. Sometimes the one who is in your life currently is the one who got away if you keep looking.

Someone who is upfront with you about costs and what kind of money it takes to do the job you want isn't that easy to find. Just read on here about how some designers muddy things to where you don't know where you stand.

Be sure that you understand the value that that adds to your project. The next designer isn't going to be perfect either.

You have to find one that you can work with, and whose faults you can live with. If the communication is there, and the clarity on costs is there, that is quite a lot indeed. It is more valuable than you are thinking.

"I have been planning for my kitchen for the last 1 year" If you know what you want - why do you think you need a kitchen designer? I don't understand why you call this person "your KD." If you are saying this person has been working with you for A YEAR, then yeah, pay up. If this person just entered your life and you basically have the plan, move on.

live wire,

I have met this KD first time on Saturday for 2 hours. It was just a complimentary initial meeting at her showroom. She sure is asking for a commitment. But I need to make sure there is some chemistry between me and the KD I hire. On top of that, she should first understand my needs and wants. I did not find the chemistry and she was not a patient listener. She sounded very different via her e-mails.

I know the next KD may not be good either or may be very good. I guess I will keep on hunting.

nightowl,

I NEVER said that I have been working with this KD for a year. This past Saturday was the FIRST TIME I met her in her showroom. It was a complimentary meeting. To clarify, I have been working on my kitchen for searching Houzz to see other kitchens. In other words, I have been collecting the pictures and I have been asking questions to other Houzzers. So I have spent a full year own my own to figure out what I want. No designer in her right mind will work with any client for a year and not get paid. Life does not work that way.

I need a KD because I am not an architect or a designer. I need someone to make drawings and do the construction work and renovate my kitchen.

I hope now it is clear to all Houzzers that I am not asking anything free from this KD or any other designer.

Mindy

Stan Z,

No, I do not want my pendants on a separate switch. I want them on the same switch as I have for my recessed lights.

Good luck with your renovation.

Mindy

On a remodle we did 6 months ago we provided everything fixture wise, got 2 bids from plumbers 3 bids from electrics and 2 drywall bids when needed. Added to that was some drawings for $800. We saved $20k over the least expensive GC bid on that project. Only you can decide what your money is worth vs your time. Fwiw, the coordination was cake. Rough in plumbing, then electrical, flooring, then cabinets, counters, fnal plumb and electrical then drywall and paint. Not rocket science...

Don't feel you need to apologize for needing or using a KD. There are many talented people here that are able to design, GC & even build their own kitchens. There are also many that design their kitchen with a KD.

If this is your first kitchen reno, it truly is an education. You'll get a feel for it as you meet other KDs. The first one I met with, I walked out thinking "there is no way I am going with that KD." I met with 3 more & guess who I ended up going with - the first. I'm not saying that will happen in your case but I wouldn't cut her loose until you meet with a few more or you already know she is not within your budget. Those bells & whistles really cost but they will cost less with a different cabinet line. That is probably another factor with her upfront explanation of costs & signing the retainer agreement. A KD is not going to want to spend a lot of time designing a kitchen if the cost of his/her cabinet line is not within the client's budget. If you are committed to WM/Brookhaven, there are probably several different dealers in your area.

There's lots to learn here to help you during the design & construction process. You definitely want drawers for your lower cabinets!

edit: Stan Z is right. It's much better to have your pendants & recessed lighting on different switches. It gives you options. Right now, my pendants are on, my recessed lights are off.

Your first post uses the possessive "my kitchen designer" in the first and second paragraphs. So, in reality, this is "a kitchen designer." And, again, if you know what you want, consider interviewing general contractors. If you know your plumbing needs, light fixtures, and overall design plan, you can save bunches.

romy718,

I am certainly not committed to Wood Mode cabinets. I am also considering Dura Supreme. Personally I feel both of these lines are in the same range from quality point of view. I am definitely getting all drawers for lower cabinets. Yes, there are other Wood Mode dealers in my area. Some of them are just distributors of cabinets and then you are own your own. Some are quite far away. They will be expensive because of transportation costs. So I am not even contacting them. I prefer to hire a KD who comes from design-build firm. That way I won't have to hire a GC and it will save me headache of managing all those trade people. This is my first house and this will be my first and last kitchen renovation. It is quite a stressful process and I am certainly not enjoying it. I am just waiting for the final outcome so that I can have a New Year party in Dec:-) If this process gets delayed, that party may not happen. That will really suck.

I may consider different switch for pendants, but it is an issue which is quite far away. First I need to find a designer :-).

nightowl,

When I was composing my message, I certainly did not think or realize that some Houzzers will interpret that she is THE designer for me. She is certainly a designer, not the designer.

Anyhow, I am also considering hiring a general contractor. But I still need to hire a KD in order to get the final design so that the GC can turn that design into a reality.

I can't save bunches on anything if a KD won't let me buy anything on my own. I hope the next KD I am meeting this coming Saturday, lets me do that.

Mindy

Don't let the limitations of GW and online communication get you down. In person conversation is always easier. This goes for all of us at GW and you KD.

I've designed my own kitchen. I've acted as my own GC. I've used KDs multiple times. It just depends on the complexity of the project. You are correct in being a little cautious. This is an important business relationship.

As I said in the previous post, don't be afraid to ask how they plan to get paid. It's business and it shouldn't be a secret. How they get paid should be front and center of any discussion. Ask about their process. You are both feeling each other out. It won't hurt their feelings. Two minutes spent understanding their process will pay off for you. As in any relationship, you should interview multiple vendors.

Would you rather pay your $100 for your light fixtures and still have a $500 per light installation charge? With no free call backs if they don't work? Pay the $100 electrician's service charge just like anyone else calling an electrician out to solve a problem? Or, your lights don't come in in time for the finish electrical to be done, so you pay that $100 trip charge later for him to come out and install them in a separate trip later?

There are reasons that professionals want to control the ordering of materials, and yea, a part of it is that is where some profit and overhead in the job is located, on materials in the labor bid. Markup on materials is industry standard. Even customer supplied materials, if you want the contractor to assume responsibility for them under the contract rather than treating it as a mini time and materials job inside the larger contract.

And some of it is that back orders and incorrect parts have impacted other jobs negatively as to the timeline, and they are trying to minimize that issue. Time is money to everyone. Be willing to pay the true side costs of supplying your own materials if you want to buy them. You won't really save any money by the time all of the ancillary costs are added. It could actually cost you more in the long run. Time and materials contracts always do cost more in the end.

"$500 per light installation charge?" Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I disagree with this - at least in my case twice - "You won't really save any money by the time all of the ancillary costs are added."

@Sahai

I buy my liquidation appliances from the distributor liquidation so they have the normal warranty. If you buy from an individual then there is no warranty but you can buy it from the manufacturer.

If you buy from a liquidator, it depends. For example, my BS range is from a liquidator who is contracted with the manufacturer so there's a warranty as they are an authorized seller just like a normal retail store.

The difference is that my appliance might have been returned, dented or discontinued. I only pay anywhere from 40-70% off the retail price. The appliances are all brand new.

My BS ovens are still in crates. The designer changed her mind so they were sent to liquidation.

Your main risk is that there's so return if you change your mind or made a mistake in sizing.

I found many of these guys on Craigslist and then visited their warehouses. There is no scam when you are inspecting the brand new item and taking possession immediately.

I don't worry about warranty on things like the sink or faucet.

Ferguson doesn't have a mailing list. I simply visited their parts warehouse for clearances every so often.

eBay is not just used stuff. I sell my purchasing mistakes on eBay at 50% off retail (what I paid). These items are all brand new.

In fact, I'm thinking of selling one of my BS ovens on EBay so I can get one with a different color.