It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 36

8 years ago

Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 35, has over 100 messages and may be causing slow message loading problems, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias
is fine. (Or feral cats or locusts or whatever.) As always, if you have any related pictures,
you are invited to post them.

My indoor zinnia activity continues, and I am temporarily adding the production of some vegetable plants for our vegetable garden, which my oldest son helps me with. Actually, he does most of the heavy work. I am growing some tomato plants in "home-made" plastic pots.

You will have to excuse the wires and pipes and such -- my indoor gardening is in the utility room in the basement along with the furnace, water heater, and the accumulator tank for the water well.

The "home-made" plastic pots are the bottom parts of 2-liter soft drink bottles.

I have cut drainage slots in the "feet" of the bottles. I like these for tomatoes because they allow for extra deep root development.

Naturally I am still growing zinnias indoors. This is a current bloom that I like because it does look a little "different".

I have had "toothy" zinnia petals in the past, but this one looks a bit different.

As always, if any of you have any comments, questions, or pictures to post, they are always welcome. More later.

Featured Answer

zen_man
Original Author

8 years ago

last modified: 8 years ago

Hi Alex,

" All is well with the garden upstairs. Of zinnias there are less than a
dozen at this time. Probably won't start any more of them for some weeks
yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing what these produce. Mostly I
chose crosses involving my lotus hybrid since it was the favorite. Hope
I'll be posting some pics before too long! "

I'll be looking forward to those pictures. Using your lotus hybrid was a good idea. This is another of my current blooms.

It is of the type I refer to as "Exotic". Not my favorite example of the type, but its progeny might show some improvement, at least a few of them might. I never forget that Sturgeon's law applies to all of my zinnia grow-outs. More later.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (115)

Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
I've had some more fun with marylandica hybrids -- I discovered a nursery near me that grows hundreds of Profusion and Zahara zinnias from seed. Since they flower when small, they're blooming at the nursery so I can just sort through everything they offer and pick out exceptional individuals to use to jump start my breeding. I've gotten some more with very nice double forms, and one with a very interesting pattern.
If you look closely, you can see that each petal has a lighter yellow stripe down the center, and then painted over with a red flush coming up from the base. I'm hoping I can accentuate that pattern in future generations. I think I'd aim to keep this single as I think the pattern would be lost in a very double flower.
Last year I tried crossing 'State Fair' (tetraploid Z. elegans) and 'Old Mexico' (tetraploid Z. haageana) to see if I could create a tetraploid Whirligig-type plant. I only got ONE seedling out of that, and it hasn't flowered yet, but the other day I notice the leaves have distinctive purple-red flushed veins.

I know zinnias often flush red in the leaves when the plants are under stress, but t seems this seedling has this color all the time. I'd LOVE to get a zinnia that had entire leaves of that dark color -- something like the very beautiful dark leaved dahlias. Wonder if that will be possible? Has anyone else noticed pigmented leaves on their seedlings?
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

Good luck with your crosses with your knock-out red cactus. Look to Joseph for advice on your Marylandicas. He is now our Marylandica Expert.

Hi Joseph,

That marylandica variant reminds me a bit of Zinnia linearis. It is unique enough to be the basis for a new commercial strain of marylandica. You have tapped into a potentially productive source of new marylandica variants.

" Has anyone else noticed pigmented leaves on their seedlings? "

The colored veins in that last picture are unlike anything I have ever seen in a zinnia. In a previous part I did show a picture of a specimen with some unusual local leaf pigmentation at the leaf base, and I will repeat it here.
Its bloom had Zinnia haageana influence.
A sibling had a similar bloom, but no leaf pigmentation.
I think your goal of fully pigmented zinnia foliage is reachable, and would be commercially desirable. It would be interesting if the pigmentation imparted any extra resistance to foliage diseases such as Powdery Mildew.

I can't wait to see what your unusual seedling will produce as a bloom.

ZM
Related Discussions
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3
Q
Comments (40)
Pls8xx, "One thing that has been on my mind the last few weeks is how important it is to me that a zinnia have a short compact plant form. I grow in a sand/clay mix rather than topsoil. It will hold plants upright fine when dry, but when wet the soil looses its strength and the tall plants become vulnerable to wind knocking them over." You have made a good case that you do need zinnias with a more compact plant habit. Last year, we had a very violent storm with high winds of 50mph and it blew down literally dozens of my zinnias. I had concrete re-bar tomato cages around a few of my more critical "breeders" and they were protected. But many of my big zinnia plants snapped off at the ground and many more lost their basal branches and some lateral branches. Interestingly, some of my big bushy scabiosa flowered zinnias and most of those F1s with a "scabi" parent came through just fine, with amazing resistance to the high winds. As is usual in a high wind storm here, for a period of hours we lost our electrical power, our telephone land line, and our cable connection. I studied the wreckage in my zinnia patch to see "what went wrong" structurally with my zinnias. As is usual for me, there were some surprises. I plan to apply what I learned from my "crash investigation" to make better decisions about plant structure this year. For one thing, I had planted a lot of Burpeeanas, from both Burpee and from Stokes. I had a lot of "out of the seed packet" Burpeeanas and some F1 hybrids from crosses that I made between Burpeeanas. (Incidentally, your picture of the "original" red Burpeeanas shows just how nice that Burpeeana bushy look can be.) To my amazement, some of the most disastrous structural failures were in my Burpeeanas. They have what I refer to as a "candelabra" stem structure, with basal branches coming out from the main stem at a 90 degree angle. Even though the stems look thick and strong, there is a kind of "joint" at the attachment point. Some of the basal branches that were in contact with the soil had actually sprouted roots and were apparently in the process of becoming independent plants. It's almost as if the stem joint was "willing" to detach from the main stem. But even higher up, those branches that cantilevered out from the main stem at a 90-degree angle seemed inherently weak. In almost all cases, the branches broke at their attachment points to the main stem. The plants that seemed resistant to branches breaking off had their branches leaving the main stem at a much more acute angle, like 45 or even 30Â°. So their branches were headed upward at the attachment point. For whatever reason, those branches seemed much better attached, even if the plant habit was more generally upward than outward. Despite the fragility of the Burpeeana plants in high winds, I plan to continue growing them and selecting the best flowers and plants. I will just be looking for stronger attachment points for their branches. If you want to emphasize compactness in your zinnia breeding, you can start with some strains that are already compact and cross some other zinnias with them. I personally have quit crossing the lower growing zinnias because I don't like kneeling and bending over to do my cross pollinating. I've always had a tendency toward lower back pain from my gardening, and a lot of bending over just aggravates it. However, short zinnias are interesting looking and fascinating in crosses, so I am thinking about constructing some really high raised beds that might bring those short zinnias up to a more comfortable working distance. There are some short zinnias that you can cross with tall zinnias that will produce some intermediate compact F1 hybrids, and the F2s from them should sort out into a wide range of plants that you could pick from for further breeding. Three of the shortest are the Thumbelina zinnia, the Zinnita zinnia, and Zinnia Short Stuff. Here is another view of Short Stuff and here is another seed source: Short Stuff at New England seed. Some taller but still very compact zinnias are Zinnia Swizzle cherry and ivory, Zinnia Swizzle scarlet and yellow, Zinnia Dreamland hybrids, Zinnia Magellan mix, and I just found that Zinnia Peter Pan mix is apparently still available. By crossing some of those compact zinnias with other zinnias you should have the basis for creating several new strains of compact zinnias, with various degrees of compactness. MM
...See More
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 21
Q
Comments (113)
JG, "Does your pink flower have patches of white in it? What else do you have there?" It doesn't seem to have patches of white, just the side effect of poor growing conditions. As for what is what, last year I grew a huge mixture. I think I had Zahara Coral, Big Red, Giant Flowered Mixed, Envy, Candy Cane, Thumbelina, and some kind of white zinnia seed, plus my own from previous years. As you've mentioned, I can definitely see some traits from before. Here's a picture of my little raised bed, with zinnias growing between peppers. They're all pink except possibly the one in the foreground, which appears to be yellow with an orange center. I'm really hoping that it is yellow, because the only yellow flowers that I had last year were from my very first zinnia plant, which was yellow, maybe 4 or 5 years ago. That's not to say that the flower couldn't have gotten the yellow from elsewhere, but I'd like to imagine it came from my plant. I'm eagerly keeping an eye on that one. Also, JG, the latest zinnias that you posted are absolutely gorgeous. I'm guessing it's your camera, but they all have a very pleasant soft glow to them. ZM, nice explanation about the seeds. That's a good solid technique. I have experimented with germinating embryos as well and can confirm that they do behave like you've described, coming up much sooner because of the seed husk. I'm more of an indoor growing person myself, and I'm going to grow zinnias this winter. I may experiment with some odd techniques to see what could happen, like intentionally bending the stems and shaping the plant, cutting liberally and watching what comes of it. I will keep everyone updated for sure. Here's a "Common Buckeye" butterfly sipping some nectar on this hot day:
...See More
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 44
Q
Comments (122)
CeeKay - Alex, can you let the cuttings stay in the Klone King until the roots are really well developed (say 2 inches or so)? Absolutely. Actually, you want the roots to be pretty well growing (I waited for at least 3 different 1+ inch roots) before you try to transplant or it may not make the transition to potting soil. I lost some things, I believe because I jumped the gun. I didn't buy any, but there's also a special liquid nutrient that is offered for cloning, so the cuttings are getting fed at the same time. I mostly don't see this as necessary unless you were leaving something in the machine for months. I did buy some rooting hormone gel which is made specifically for the clone machines. I had some regular powdered stuff - RootTone, I think it was, but it was old, and when those yellow roses I mentioned just wouldn't root for me, and I was getting antsy to shut the thing down for the end of season, I bought it and that seemed to do the trick. The three cuttings had callused, and eventually probably would have rooted, but that sped them up, thankfully. My other two roses, as mentioned, only took a week to root as opposed to the several weeks the yellow rose took. As for your antique moss rose, I feel pretty confident that you could get successful green cuttings come Spring, using the Klone King or one of the other cloning machines. I can't say whether any of the other machines are any better, but I will say that if you see one with a dome, avoid it. After reading the material, I am in agreement that too much heat would be generated under it because of the heat from the water pump and being under lights. I think, reading that, was what settled me on the Klone King - intuition spoke to me. :) Use some rooting hormone from the beginning, though, to give things the extra edge. I was cocky and thought I wouldn't need it. Another blow to my gardening ego. Sigh. Oh, and there are different sizes - some have only 12 slots for cuttings, I think. I was "in the mode" at the time, and John said: "Go for it!", so I bought the one with 36 slots. Nice, but possibly unnecessary. Wish I'd been "in the mode" about 3 months earlier, though, when I first saw the thing advertised, because by the time I bought it, the price had upped about $25! We're also predicted to get first frost here in the morning. It's been a long season - longest I remember in ages. I have things I need to do outside still, but they are for after the annuals die, so I've been puttering around, twiddling my thumbs waiting. Am not anxious for winter, but am anxious for shutting the garden down for the season, so I can concentrate on other things. Alex, you mentioned a greenhouse- do you ever grow zinnias there? Lucky ZenMan having that sweet setup to grow zinnias in his basement. No, my greenhouse, which is about 8 x 18 ft up against the south side of the house, is not heated. Perennials can overwinter, and many annuals can handle the cold by the time May rolls around and outside temps aren't going into deep freeze for extended periods. As for ZM's basement setup, he'll be the first to tell you that you can have an indoor setup, too with just a shelf or two - or more - and a 4 ft utility light suspended over it. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. You don't have to have temperature controlled germination shelves (sniff), or even high intensity grow lights, etc, etc. My set up is pretty simple, though it's bigger now than it used to be. I have space for 12 flats that are about 16" x 23" and only 6" high. These will hold about 14 6-cell seed starters or 35 (more or less) styrofoam cups which I use instead of plastic pots for various reasons. You could set up a single shelf with one 4 ft light that would handle the equivalent of 2 of these flats worth of plants. That's still alot of plants. And if you wanted to grow some zinnias indoors, you could simply elevate your trays with books or boxes underneath, removing them as the plants grow taller. You getting me? Think I've talked enough. Whew. Alex
...See More
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 48
Q
Comments (109)
Hi Ninecrow, Yeah, yeah, I know. I created Part 49, but Houzz lost it somehow. I have a Trouble Report in with them, but so far the only response is an automatic "we got your message" response. This was caused by a bug in the Houzz software, and I am not impressed that after 24 hours from reporting the problem, I still have not communicated with a Houzz human being. It will eventually get resolved, and there will be a Part 49. Oddly, the Link that doesn't work for you does work for me. But that is the only way I can access the new Part 49. I may just be accessing it in a local browser buffer. It doesn't show up in the Annuals message list or the Hybridizing message list (which I tagged for Part 49 because multiple forums for a message string is a feature of the new software). Unfortunately, using that feature led to the disappearance of the new Part 49. If I had not chosen to use the new feature, Part 49 would already be there for us. We shall see what we shall see. ZM
...See More
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Joseph -

I discovered a nursery near me that grows hundreds of Profusion and
Zahara zinnias from seed. Since they flower when small, they're blooming
at the nursery so I can just sort through everything they offer and
pick out exceptional individuals to use to jump start my breeding.

That'san interesting approach - quite practical. And cuts out some of that initial waiting period. My own Zaharas are just starting to bud - am looking forward to seeing them "in the flesh", rather than just the photos in the catalog. I picked two mixed packages: one of Bonfire, and the other of Double Duo. These should give me a range of colors and shapes to work with, though on a very small scale: I've only got about 9 each. Hey - I figured I had enough to do as it is! :) If I like them a lot, I can expand next year.

ZM - didn't we just have this discussion about the cyanin coloration in foliage? Will keep a lookout, Joseph, for red leaf coloration. I personally love the contrast of red-foliated leaves alongside the usual greens (and greys) . I saved seed last year from a Dark Towers penstemon, hoping the F1s would retain the dark coloration. A high percentage did, and the color is deepening now that they're planted out in the sun and heat. I think this would be seriously cool if you were able to breed a dark-foliated zinnia.

- Alex
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Zenman,

That pigmented leaf base is really neat looking! Hopefully I'll be able to make progress on that front. There are just too many fun things to try with zinnias... they're going to take over my whole garden soon!
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

" ...didn't we just have this discussion about the cyanin coloration in foliage? "

Well, that discussion was in Part 35 back in mid January (snow on the ground), but time flies when you are having fun. And we were associating cyanin with cyan (sky blue) and the possibility of getting a true blue zinnia.

My picture and Joseph's picture prove that zinnias can have some foliage pigmentation, so the question now is how much foliage pigmentation is possible in zinnias? That remains to be seen. I will save seeds from zinnias that show signs of foliage pigmentation, and Joseph probably will also. And I expect you will also.

It would be a cruel joke if one of us got a true blue zinnia, but it would be the leaves and not the petals that were blue. We could complete the inversion by crossing it with Envy or Tequila Lime to get green petals. A green zinnia on a blue plant. That would be novel.

Some of my exotic zinnias have a "look" that suggests they have some Razzle Dazzle genes. This is one such current outdoor specimen.
I will continue various crosses in order to get these tubular petaled zinnias perfected. I want zinnias on which each petal will be an attractive "flower". More later.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Well, no blue zinnias here, but your exotic is looking good, and I'm happy with some of my lotus hybrids. Here are a few pics. The third one is a self of the Lotus #1. I need to go over again instructions on what the best way is to track the hybrids - how to designate without having a long string of "this x that x this x that" - if you know what I mean.

I'm really liking that lotus F1. It's got this whole "spiky petal thing" going that is different from any of the others.

- Alex
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Oh, 'scuse me - that's an F2, isn't it? Or is it? Now I'm confused...
ninecrow
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
OK I HAVE To Admit While The Form of The pinks Are Nice, I REALLY Don't Like The Colour pink!!!!

I SO Hope You'll Be Able To Get The Forms in Other Colours.....
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Ninecrow - I do know what you mean. After awhile I start to get tired of pink and it's variations myself! Give me a nice yellow or even a white - ha! Well, we do know that zinnias come in those other colors, but pinks do seem to be predominate, don't they? Joseph just posted a lovely yellow, as did ZM with his yellow and orange bi-color. Take heart - more to come...

- Alex
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Zaharas are getting ready to bloom soon. And one of my Double Duos decided to really be a double:

ZM - now would that technically be considered a "sport"? - if you notice the two opposing leaves are doubled as well. I don't see the pattern repeated further down the plant. I will be saving seeds if they still look attractive. Otherwise, I'll consider them interesting, but not worth salvage.

- Alex
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Hi Alex,

Wow! you posted while I was writing my post. We were both silent for a week, and then we both decide to post almost simultaneously. What are the chances of that?

" that's an F2, isn't it? Or is it? Now I'm confused... "

I think it was a progeny of one of your F1 hybrids, so I think it would be fair to call it an F2. Any thing beyond F1 has recombinance of genes. The F1-F2-F3... thing is applicable to a simple cross and subsequent progeny from that one cross. The notation breaks down when real life complexity occurs -- for example, if you cross one of your F2s with one of your F1s --- what do you call the outcome from that cross? Probably not F1.5. I just use the term recombinant when the zinnia family tree becomes a bit complex.

Incidentally, all of your zinnias look new and good. The zinnia in your last picture is great and has a unique color. You are making this zinnia breeding thing look too easy. I like your informal flower forms, and I love that color -- what would you call it? Maybe tangerine, but that is not it exactly. I wonder if anyone has ever made a color chart of all of the colors that zinnias can have. It would be a big chart.

More later. I am still planting zinnia seeds outdoors, and will continue to do that throughout the first half of July.

ZM

Hi Alex,

Now I will respond to your new post.

" ...now would that technically be considered a "sport"? "

I think it would be a sport if it proves to be genetic -- that is, if its progeny also look like that. That is a novel look, but I am not sure I like it. I have declined to save seeds from my broken form blooms. I did save seeds from one, and sure enough, it was genetic. For the sake of science, maybe you should save seeds from it.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
ZM - you just answered another of my questions: I am still planting zinnia seeds outdoors, and will continue to do that throughout the first half of July.

I cleared one of my beds last night of the last of the spinach which had bolted, and was toying with the idea of putting in more zinnias. There was a multi-blooming orange from year before last that I was curious to dig up out of my seed archive, plus more of the lotus selfs and some other cactus F1s. I wondered, though, if it was maybe too late for it, but if you're still planning planting through the first half of July, then I guess not.

Yeah, the double-headed thing usually isn't as attractive, often neither head being quite symmetrical. But since I'm being all botanical these days, maybe as you say - "for the sake of science", I'll save seed.

How has your Devil's Claw fared?

- Alex
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

" How has your Devil's Claw fared? "

My Devil's Claws seem to like this hot weather, and they are in bloom.
If I had spare time, I might try to breed Devil's Claws for better flowers. As it is, they are somewhat ornamental. More later.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
ZM - yeah, that flower looks familiar; I must have seen one in the flesh back in TX. Is it fuzzy-leafed? I think, without googling it, that it's a semi-desert plant with fuzzy leaves to catch dew.

OK, I just googled it, and it's reminding me of what you said - that it's a "protocarnivorous" plant or paracarnivorous, depending on which camp you fall into - whether you believe it is headed towards being truly carnivorous or not. As it is, it traps insects, but then doesn't know what to do with them. :) Did you know you can cook the immature seed pods like okra? How adventurous a cook are you?

So - I direct planted more zinnias last night. Cross your fingers that the slugs and/or moles don't take them out.

- Alex
docmom_gw
7 years ago
I finally have success! I have attempted both of the past two summers to grow zinnias to enhance the nectar/pollen options in my pollinator garden. Unfortunately, my success has been less than stellar, primarily based on my busy life at crucial moments in the development of my baby zinnias. This year, somehow, the stars seem to be aligned in my favor. Here is my small patch, grown from seeds of second generation (F2) open pollinated Purple Prince and/or Rose something:

There are several buds scattered among the plants, so I'm hoping for blooms by Fourth of July. I'm mostly excited to pick out flowers with large centers for "landing pads" and higher numbers of pollen florets. I tried to grow "Zowie Yellow Flame" or some name close to that, because it has a very large central cone, but got zero germination two years running. Keep fingers crossed.

Martha
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

" As it is, it traps insects, but then doesn't know what to do with them. "

In our Texas garden, I studied the Devil's Claw situation with an 8-power magnifying glass (it was rather small for that reason) and noted that some of our Devil's Claw plants were literally covered with small trapped insects and maybe even some small mites. The plants were very fuzzy and sticky, on their leaves and their fat stems. (Learning more about micro insects is on my "to do" list.)

Incidentally, Devil's Claw stems are so thick that they border on being succulents.

The trapped creatures were in various stages, ranging from recently trapped and struggling to get free, to dead but "fresh", and long dead and apparently empty exoskeletons. Most plants readily absorb soluble nutrients on their foliage, as occurs when you foliar feed them.

I strongly suspect that the Devil's Claws do absorb components of the body juices of the trapped insects and other tiny creatures. And that would be carnivorous behavior. But they are not depend on that, and it is a secondary source of nutrition that possibly supplies trace elements as well. Plants need a wide variety of trace elements, some in very small amounts, including Nickel. And Vanadium and Cobalt are among the elements that are beneficial to plants. So the Devil's Claws could be benefiting from the trapped insects.

" Did you know you can cook the immature seed pods like okra? "

Yes. And you can make pickles from them as well. However, my son says they don't taste very good, according to sources he has read. On the subject of edibles, I picked and ate a nasturtium bloom yesterday, and it tasted great. That was my first nasturtium bloom. They would make a good addition to a salad. I think I will plant some more nasturtiums. I do have several dozen nasturtium plants that are just beginning to vine. However, I am under the impression that nasturtiums prefer cool weather, so that may be a problem. Our weather is far from cool. More later. I need to till another zinnia seedbed.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Hi Martha,

Your zinnia plants are looking good. I like the way you have them spaced. It looks hopeful that you will have blooms by the Fourth of July. Do you have any plans to do cross pollinations?

" I tried to grow "Zowie Yellow Flame" or some name close to that,
because it has a very large central cone, but got zero germination two
years running. "

Zowie Yellow Flame is the correct name. It is an F1 hybrid, so its seeds are relatively expensive. Do you remember who you bought your Zowie Yellow Flame seeds from? Most seed companies will replace seeds that failed to germinate. Zowie would be a good fit for your requirements for lots of nectar for butterflies and a big "landing pad". Since the Zowie seeds are so expensive, you would be justified to ask for replacement seeds.

I look forward to seeing pictures of your zinnias when they do bloom. Hopefully at least some of them will be attractive to butterflies.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Martha - nice crop of zinnias there! Hope you get your wish on the 4th. The butterflies are definitely moving through my garden - such a pleasure to see.

ZM - I strongly suspect that the Devil's Claws do absorb components of the
body juices of the trapped insects and other tiny creatures.

The way you've described it, it sounds quite plausible that they do. Interesting plants. Please take a photo of the pods while they are green - I'm curious to see what they look like.

I have a number of blooms open or opening now. Here's a strange how-de-do with the second bloom of the plant pictured in the second photo I posted on June 16th - it's not the same color at all!

It is an F2 of my lotus breeder, and looks more like it than the 1st bloom did. Can't account for the radical color change, though. Huh. Below is a lotus x yellow cactus, looking very lotus-y.

Orange King x cactus #1

Two different versions of Yellow cactus x cactus #1

Cactus #1 x my semi-dahlia breeder:

And the reverse - two versions of the semi-dahlia x cactus #1:

Finally, the bi-color whirligig that I'd been so thrilled to see crossed with a watermelon-y cactus which had whirligig mixed in it:

So far I'm fairly pleased. Most of the best lotus hybrids are 4-1/2" in size, which I like. Would like to see more pointy cactus-y type petals, and/or crinkly petals. Meant to say earlier - I'm seeing the blue coloration at top leaf junctures on most of the lotus, too.

- Alex

(Sorry for all the pics - maybe I shouldn't have posted that many?)
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Alex,

First of all, don't be sorry for posting all those pics -- they are freakin' amazing!!! You have created several zinnias that are prettier than any commercially available zinnias. And that second golden yellow/baby pink bicolor coming from that chameleon rose red that fades almost immediately defies belief! Could you get a picture of the whole plant with both blooms? That plant is scientifically significant. I have seen zinnias do weird stuff, but I think that one takes the cake.

I don't have a lot of zinnias in bloom yet, but some crosses between Razzle Dazzles and "regular" zinnias show another path to "toothy" petals.
I accidentally turned on my camera's date/time tag feature for these pictures.
I need to learn my camera's features better.
That last one looks like it is trying to scare me, and it sort of succeeds. It is obvious that I have a lot to learn about zinnia genetics.

Alex, you are succeeding beyond belief. I don't know if you are having beginner's luck or what. But you are producing some amazingly good zinnias right out of the starting gate. I can imagine your whole series of pictures as the illustrations in a futuristic zinnia seed catalog.

I planted a bed of Burpee's Burpeeana Giants today. I'll pick the best specimens and cross them with something weird. More later. We are supposed to get rain for the next couple of days, with a partial let-up for The Fourth.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
ZM - you are too kind with your praise (preen, preen) - so I don't feel like holding back when I say that I love, love, LOVE those toothy, raggedy ann zinnias you just posted! I said I was hoping for something more pointy-petaled, and here you come with these mega-pointy blooms. I see the melon-colored ones have some tube petals mixed in with regular petals, and the yellow seems to be trying to do a scabious thing in the middle. You can tell that flea beetle and gnat that their mothers are calling them over at the Devil's Claw. (Oh! Does the Devil's Claw have any flea beetles trapped on it? I'll have to plant a catch crop in my eggplant bed if it does. And on that note, I invested in some diatomaceous earth to sprinkle around my zinnia seedlings - we'll see how well it works as they are just starting to sprout now. It's foodgrade so supposedly I can use it for worming the cats as well as in food prep for humans. In a younger lifetime, John used the stuff for filtering fry oil at a fish and chips restaurant.)

I planted a bed of Burpee's Burpeeana Giants today. I'll pick the best specimens and cross them with something weird. -Ha! Question: are B.B. Giants cactus-y at all?

We're supposed to have good weather for the 4th as well, followed by 3 days of thunderstorms - hope they're right about the rain. Gotta go -

- Alex
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
OK - since you said I could, and since I'm obviously not out celebrating our nation's independence...here are more pics:

my first zaharas blooming - the bonfires:

a pretty lotus hybrid:

yellow cactus hybrid - that's not quite an accurate shot, but the petals did have some slight gradation of color:

just plain pretty purple - cactus #1 x Royal Purple:

my dahlia hybrid x cactus:

Yay - a white! Though, supposedly this is another dahlia x cactus - hmmm...

And here's the pic (lousy photo - sorry) of the whole plant of the changing color lotus-cactus hybrid:

The 1st bloom, which is the watermelon lower one, is almost spent. But if you notice, it has put out some of the salmon-orangey petals like the 2nd bloom. The whole plant is in stress (probably some mole holes right underneath that I didn't push down) - could this stress cause the color change?

Lastly, not a zinnia, but I thought you'd get a kick out of this rudbeckia, ZM. It has spoon-type tubular petals. If you look at the other bloom behind it, not all of it's petals are spoons. This bloom had the most. I've marked it to save seed:

Happy 4th!

- Alex
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Meant to add that those are wild rudbeckias that I encourage to grow in the garden. I have other domestic ones as well, but the wild are so hardy and pretty. May do some crosses sometime with them.
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

Well, you are just amazing! Where do I start? Your tall picture may not be perfect photographically, but it does establish that your two totally dissimilar blooms on the same plant are not some two-seeds-in-the-same-hole illusion. I would encourage you to save all the seeds from that plant that you can. There is something really unique going on there. I have never seen anything quite as dramatic as that. I have seen many indications that different zinnia branches can appear to have differing genetics. But nothing as dramatic as that plant of yours has shown. I did have one bloom a few years ago that suggested that a zinnia can change its mind about what color it wants to be.

It doesn't show well in that photo, but those yellow petals have magenta at their base. So chalk that up to Whirligig weirdness. Incidentally, yesterday I planted a bed of Whirligigs from some old seed I saved in 2010.

Your white one has interesting "pinched" petal form, and pretty good white on the backside of the petals as well. Your purple has remarkably good white on the petal backsides. Your yellow cactus hybrid has interesting color streaks and corrugations in its petals. Your lotus hybrid has that interesting flower form and remarkable clean light red color. I like zinnias because of their remarkably distinct color variations. You have a bunch of zinnias now that beg both to be selfed and to be crossed to tease out ever new variations. Do try to hang onto that lotus flower form -- it has a subtle uniqueness that is very pleasant.

Don't be afraid to play with your Profusions. I confess that those 46 chromosomes bluff me, but don't be afraid to experiment. A cross with regular 24-chromosome zinnias might be interesting. A 35-chromosome hybrid might be interesting, though theoretically infertile. But simple theory isn't always representative of what reality can serve up. Modern genetics reveals that chromosomes aren't the exclusive carriers of genetic traits.

Your spooned rudbeckia photo gives me a new goal for a zinnia flower form. I have a growing belief that single zinnias can look good. More later.

ZM
woodnative
7 years ago
The International Carnivorous Plant Society seems to think the Devil's Claws are not carnivorous. I like Barry's description of them here: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/howto/GrowingGuides/Ibicella.php As mentioned by Zen man I would not be surprised if some nutrients were absorbed (nature usually doesn't usually waste such efforts!) but I don't know that there is direct evidence. I have a few Zinnias starting to bloom but it has, like most years in recent history, been too dry here in the NJ summer!
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
ZM - I remember that pic of your confused bi-color bloom - very distinctive. Thanks for the advice about saving the seed; I was dithering about it. Would probably have decided to anyway, but there would have been a feeling of uncertainty about using it for a breeder, since there is another within this lotus gene pool which I had named the Dorian Gray because of it's rapid aging problems. This particular bloom seems to have inherited the DG gene as well, which is too bad as I rather like the striping:

Don't be afraid to play with your Profusions. I confess that those 46
chromosomes bluff me, but don't be afraid to experiment. A cross with
regular 24-chromosome zinnias might be interesting. A 35-chromosome
hybrid might be interesting, though theoretically infertile.

Really? When you had talked about it before, I'd just assumed that no simple mechanical cross between the elegans and the marylandicas was possible. Well, then, that's too tempting - I will have to make the experiment! Oh, and they're Zaharas rather than Profusion - but same difference. BTW - the doubled double Zahara has bloomed - pretty color, but you're right - an aberration with no overwhelming reason to warrant saving seed from. I'll take a pic later.

Thought you'd like the spooned rudbeckia. I wouldn't have considered saving it except that I saw it through your eyes and realized its beauty. It is beautiful, and unique. It would be a nice addition to the garden. There is some danger of it's crossing with other rudbeckias, however and passing on the tube gene. The blooms that are partial tubes among regular petals are not so attractive. But this would happen anyway within the wild community, and no doubt already has - thus this specimen.

Woodnative - OMG! Read the article about the Devil's Claw - fascinating.
'Scuse me, ZM, but after reading that, I think maybe I'd rather not plant stinky, sticky Devil's Claw in me garden, dontcha know? :)

- Alex
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Alex and ZM,

I made some crosses between Marylandica and tetraploid elegans (state fair) last year. The hybrids were intermediate in height but small flowered like marylandica and completely sterile. Couldn't get any seed, and the anther were malformed and showed no pollen. Might be possible to create f1 hybrid varieties that way, but seems like a breeding dead end.

In other marylandica news, I grew a bunch of Zahara XL and Profusion Knee High this year, both of which are supposed to be 18-24 inches tall, buy now they are flowering and are only 7-8 inches tall! I'm very annoyed. Hopefully they'll get taller later in the season.
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Joseph and ZM - Aha! The experiment has been tried already, but that won't deter me from making my own attempt for the fun of it.

In an aside - Joseph, I purchased your book new off of Amazon recently, and just wanted to say I find it delightfully enthusiastic and down to earth, if you'll excuse this shameless piece of flattery ( and the down to earth pun). Haven't finished it yet, but I am encouraged by the style to read it all the way through, rather than just pick out the juicy bits for immediate use as is my usual practice with gardening resources. Thank you. And now back to our usual program...

- Alex
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Alex,
By all means try again! Sterility is rarely absolute. I bet if you try it enough, you can find a fertile one.
And glad you are enjoying the book! It was a lot of fun to write.

Joseph
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Oh, if you want to play with crossing marylandicas to elegans, here's a research paper where they did it. http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/121/1/27.full.pdf This is what inspired me to try.

Joseph
docmom_gw
7 years ago
This might be a really stupid question, but do the pollen florets appear after the blossom has been open for a while, and how long does it take, approximately? I ask, because, so far, none of my zinnia blossoms have any pollen florets, and my bumble bees are not going to be happy if this state of affairs is allowed to persist. I'm hoping to choose to save seeds from plants that produce lots of florets.

Martha
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Martha,

" ...do the pollen florets appear after the blossom has been open for a while, and how long does it take, approximately? "

It varies a lot. Some zinnia blooms never produce any pollen florets. Others produce pollen florets along with their first or second row of petals. Take a look at all of Alex's zinnia bloom pictures to get some idea of the variation.

Sometimes zinnias respond to stress by producing pollen florets. I withhold water for my indoor zinnias to stimulate them to produce pollen florets. That might work outdoors, although with all the rain we have been getting, withholding water is meaningless.

ZM
docmom_gw
7 years ago
Thanks, ZM. We haven't had much rain at all, but I've been hand watering the zinnias to make sure they survive. I'll happily stop doing that, unless they seem to be wilting. That should be enough stress. Some critter is eating off the tops of some zinnia plants, but I'll consider it gentle pruning, for now. Some folks on the wildlife threads are whining about the growing population of raptors that are "decimating the populations of woodland creatures." I would pay good money to have a few extra raptors in my yard. I need the squirrels and rabbits thinned by about half. Not to mention the mice who move inside every autumn.
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Joseph,

Thanks a bunch for the link to the paper on crossing marylandica with violacea (elegans).

In your picture of a Zahara XL or Profusion Knee High, in the lower part of the picture there is a bud that looks a little distressed, and a leaf or two that have a whitish cloud that looks a bit like Powdery Mildew. It is my understanding that the Marylandicas are immune to PM by virtue of not being a member of the species Elegans, since PM is species specific. Otherwise that plant looks quite healthy and very well-nourished.

With respect to its disappointing height, that may correct itself. The dwarf Zinnia elegans variety Thumbelina starts blooming at only 3 inches and eventually reaches a height of 6 inches. So Thumbelina becomes twice its first-bloom height. It is not the only zinnia variety that does that. If your XL/Knee High plant does a similar thing, it will be close to its advertised plant height.

With regard to larger flowered elegans X angustifolia, if a cross used a tetraploid angustifolia (44 chromosomes), the resulting hybrid would have (24 + 44)/2 or 34 chromosomes, which is an even number and potentially fertile. Along a similar approach, if a tetraploid elegans (48 chromosomes) were crossed with a diploid angustifolia (22 chromosomes) the resulting hybrid would have (48 + 22)/2, or 35 chromosomes, which is an odd number and would be presumably sterile.

It seems that the Marylandicas are now challenged to come up with both taller plants and larger flowers to compete with Elegans. I have stayed with Elegans for bigger flowers (6 inches diameter and possibly larger) and taller plants (4 feet and possibly taller). Powdery mildew is not a deal breaker for me, because PM is a problem mainly in the Fall, and I have several different sprays that control it on my breeder quality specimens. (The sprays are too expensive for me to use them on a large scale.)

But I am interested in inter-species crosses with zinnias as a source of new desirable traits. The majority of my zinnias have some genes from Zinnia haageana (via ancestry involving Merry-Go-Round, Carousel, Zig Zag, and Whirligig), so they are Zinnia hybrida taxonomically. I would like to involve some more zinnia species in the mix.

ZM
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Zen Man,
Some insect has been nibbling on that flower bud, I think. The whitish look to some of the leaves is just glare or something in the photo-- in real life they are all green. And hopefully they'll get some height on them eventually!
I agree that height and flower size are where marylandica lacks the most. And diversity of flower form. I'm hoping I can improve on all those fronts. We'll see!
I too would like to explore breeding with more different species. I'm going to try crosses with Zinnia acerosa and Zinnia grandiflora this summer. No idea if that will be successful or not, but it will be fun to see!
Joseph
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
First, let me just say that I think it is cruel to put me through what I just went through. Especially when I've barely had my morning tea and toast.

I went to check out the link that Joseph so offhandedly recommended. Well. Normally I would just rate it yawn-worthy and go about my business. But. I decided to try to decipher it instead.

Abstract: True-breeding lines of Zinnia marylandia Spooner, Stimart and Boyle [allotetraploids of Z. angustifolia H.B.K. and Z. violacea Cav. (2n = 46)] were reciprocally backcrossed with diploid and autotetraploid forms of Z. angustifolia (2n = 22 or 44) and Z. violacea (2n = 24 or 48). In most cases, backcrosses were more successful with Z. angustifolia and Z. violacea as autotetraploids than as diploids.

Stop right there.OK, I know what an abstract is. So far so good. But should I know what or who Spooner, Stimart and Boyle are? No matter. What the heck is backcrossing?? Is it just another way to talk about a hybrid cross? Went to look it up in some article from an OSU prof. Got it - answer: yes and more. Donor with a desirable trait x recurrent parent down through the generations to get an essentially recurrent parent with the desired gene. Next: Allotetraploids, diploids, autotetraploids, colchicine...lions, and tigers and bears - good gods!

So - half hour later. Did I say thank you, Joseph? ZM, of course, is tossing around numbers like confetti: 24, 44, 34.

I say: "220, 320 - whatever it takes."

Anyway - I have an unrelated question, except that it does have to do with zinnias and crosses - back or otherwise: if it rains 6 hours after you've made your crosses, will the rain have washed away those pollen tube-thingeys before they had the chance to set? Should I assume that all those crosses yesterday probably weren't viable? We had a very hard rain last night after a sweltering 90+ degree, 100% humidity day. Just answer in small simple words, OK?

- Alex
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

" ...if it rains 6 hours after you've made your crosses, will the rain have
washed away those pollen tube-thingeys before they had the chance to
set? Should I assume that all those crosses yesterday probably weren't
viable? "

I wouldn't make any assumptions. The stigmas themselves will tell you if they got fertilized or not. My guess would be that they did get fertilized, but check them in a couple of days. If they got fertilized in the hours before the rain, they will be showing visible signs of shriveling and all is well. If they didn't get fertilized, they will still be yellow, healthy, and perky. In that case they are still receptive to pollen. You have a window of a week or more to get a zinnia stigma fertilized. And when it is fertilized, in a day or two it will shrivel and turn brown and possibly fall off. So, as the saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

" But should I know what or who Spooner, Stimart and Boyle are? "

Joseph probably does. I will address that when a possible rain runs me in out of the garden. I am headed outside now to work on another zinnia bed, in which I will plant some Whirligigs. If our weather permits. We are currently subject to "pop up thunderstorms."

ZM
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Lol! Sorry Alex for spoiling your morning!

"Zinnia marylandica Spooner, Stimart and Boyle" means, essentially, "Zinnia marylandica as defined and described by Spooner, Stimart and Boyle." The naming of species is a very inexact science and often different taxonomists prefer different species names, so to avoid confusion it is standard in academic papers to put the name of the taxonomist you are following after the species name. In this case, Spooner, Stimart and Boyle are, I believe, the scientists at The University of Maryland who first created and named Zinnia marylandica.

According to what I can find, zinnia pollen should be rain safe after 30 minutes, if not sooner. For the long winded explanation of why, follow this link: https://books.google.com/books?id=aAMH59d2jF0C&pg=PA343&lpg=PA343&dq=zinnia+pollen+germination&source=bl&ots=ofcTsdITRD&sig=dn7WSf8KuchME4oSuUWMyp79zII&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifoc3xmOTNAhUDVT4KHVkjD3AQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=zinnia%20pollen%20germination&f=false
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Oh, and in the context of the paper I shared, backcrossing simply means crossing a hybrid back to one of its parents. Since marylandica is a hybrid of elegans and angustifolia, and cross between Marylandica and one of its parent species is called a backcross.
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
Thank you, ZM and Joseph, for the encouraging words. It's nice to have some hope for my efforts, since I had particularly good feelings about the majority of those crosses. I'll keep my eye on those stigmas.

ZM - you're still planting? That's so tempting, but I'd better resist since my growing season is shorter. I made the supreme error (for me) and didn't pregerminate some seeds I put in not that long back. Poor germination out there in the summer heat. How do you manage?

Joseph - I was almost afraid to open that second link for fear my brain might implode, but when I did, my heart gave a little flutter instead. I thought I'd been offered a glimpse of the Holy Grail of hybridizing. I'd already seen the listing for that book with a rather steep price tag attached to it, even used. Then I noticed that it was a Google teaser excerpt. Rather more readable than the other article you directed me to, though certainly lacking the flavor of your own work, of course. :) I think I'll hold off and see if it comes to us on its own at the bookshop or on a housecall. Stranger things have happened.

And thank you for the clarification about backcrossing. I am definitely not up on all the terminology.

- Alex
ninecrow
7 years ago
Have You Seen This ZenMan?

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/industry-news/nasa-astronauts-become-gardeners-with-first-space-grown-zinnia/
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi NineCrow,

No, I hadn't seen that. Fascinating. Zinnias in space. I wonder if the increased exposure to various kinds of radiation might create some mutations in them. Thanks for the link.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Joseph,

Thanks for the link to the Flower Breeding and Genetics book. I have the book, but missed seeing that it supplied authoritative answers to Alex's question about zinnia pollen and zinnia pollination. And your use of the Google access to that zinnia pollination info was ingenious. As I recall, Amazon's "Look Inside" feature did not access that part of the book. And your comment about Marylandica taxonomy was new information for me, as well. We are fortunate to benefit from your expertise.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Alex,

" I'd already seen the listing for that book with a rather steep price tag
attached to it, even used. ...I
think I'll hold off and see if it comes to us on its own at the bookshop
or on a housecall. "

The prices for that book vary all over the map, and some offerings on Amazon are far greater than its MSRP !!! When I first saw the book listed on Amazon, its price was in the neighborhood of $200 ! I could tell from Amazon's Look Inside feature in the Table of Contents that its Chapter 12 was devoted to zinnias, but as I recall I couldn't access any of Chapter 12 online. I didn't even know about Google access at that time. I didn't know of any other significant available information on zinnia breeding, so I really wanted the book.

Then Amazon ran some kind of sale, and I purchased the paperback version new from Amazon Prime in January 2008 for $96.70.

With your contacts in the bookstore world you might find access to a new or used copy at a price acceptable to you, hopefully less than $100. I have found the book quite helpful. Apparently I should re-read it more carefully, because I completely missed its relevant info about your zinnia pollination question that fortunately Joseph called our attention to.

" ...you're still planting? "

I finished the prep work and planting of my last seedbed day before yesterday. I will still fill in a few blank places with seeds for the next couple of weeks. In the past I have planted zinnias as late as in August for a Fall crop, but I won't do that this year.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hello all,

A few days ago this zinnia caught my eye.
I noticed that its petals seem to be split at the ends. I have seen several different zinnia petal styles, but this two-finger style adds yet another possible style.

ZM
Joseph Tychonievich
7 years ago
Got a bloom on my State Fair x Old Mexico hybrid! Not particularly exciting, but hopefully interesting things will come up in the F2s next year.
The foliage is still showing strong purple color at the leaf bases. I really hope I can amplify that in future generations.
ninecrow
7 years ago
ZM

Think it's Time For a New Part....
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
Hello Joseph,

Your State Fair X Old Mexico cross is an inter-species hybrid at the tetraploid 48-chromosome level. I can't wait to see the F2's from that cross !!!

That foliage color looks promising, and there is even some of it in the stem above it. That white area at the leaf-stem union has a nice pink color. Interesting possibilities.

ZM
docmom_gw
7 years ago
I'll second ninecrow's suggestion. It takes longer to get to the bottom than it does to read the new posts. One of us could start a new one, but I like having ZM as our fearless leader.

Martha
samhain10 - 5a
7 years ago
I have questions about crossing Z elegans (or should I start calling them Z violacea as I see is being done more?) with the marylandicas, but I guess I'll wait till you've started a new thread, ZM, as you generally do about now. No hurry; my question isn't time specific. Absolutely no pressure. :)

P.S. I have pics to share, too...

- Alex
zen_man
Original Author
7 years ago
OK, OK, I hear you. This message thread is continued over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 37

See you all over there.

ZM