Most of the drivers of ice cream trucks in my neighborhood are Sikh men who wear turbans. In the early days following 9/11, he removed his turban and wore a baseball cap. I felt bad for the guy. I know the difference, but many do not.

If you knew the man on the subway was Sikh as identified by his turban, then why were you fearful of him? Because he carries a knife? You didn't mention that...you specifically said you were concerned he was a suicide bomber.

TR - You are not responsible for misspeaking. The young man who wrote the letter you quoted told an untruth.

I was going to write what Annie did, that the guy on the underground was a Sikh. Only Sikhs, as far as I know, wear turbans today, which should instantly identify them. Tragically, they have suffered and must remain alert; there was a massacre at a Sikh temple (in Wisconsin?) a few years ago.

Wearing the turban is not optional. Their religion requires it.

ETA: Linelle - thank you for adding that detail about the baseball cap. I didn't know that that would be allowed!

There are some important differences between western culture and islam which, as more people immigrate from there, must be dealt with. While literal interpretations of the bible would lead to condoning a lot of violence, especially against women, most of western culture has left those behind in favor of individual rights. However, muslim cultures have not. For example, western culture does not condone practices common in islam like female genital mutilation, or "honor killing" of wives, or men marrying children. While western societies pretty generally allow for religious freedom, it is not absolute. How those differences get ironed out will be a challenge, especially as muslims integrate in larger numbers into western societies.

In terms of religious beliefs and literal interpretations of the religious texts, here's an interesting quiz you can take to see if you can identify which of these quotes condoning violence belong to the bible or the koran.

To think a person would have to remove his turban (or any religious symbol) in fear of being attacked, is so very, very sad.

I agree with amck who said "I cannot believe I'm living to see something like this happening in what I would think would be a more enlightened time".

I am 68 and I told my husband that I am almost glad that I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning because of where our country could be heading because of the Trumps of the world and his followers. Who ever would have thought we would live in a Jerry Springer world. Hate, ignorance, intolerance. Who would have thought.

Sable, I don't know whether the cap was sanctioned by his faith or not, given the circumstances. Perhaps he was wearing a low-profile turban that he could cover with the baseball cap. Last month I was talking to a Caltrans worker about a traffic situation and his turban was smaller than I'm used to seeing.

If you knew the man on the subway was Sikh as identified by his turban, then why were you fearful of him? Because he carries a knife? You didn't mention that...you specifically said you were concerned he was a suicide bomber.

I know what I said, Annie. And if you want the honest truth, I was instantly fearful of him because I have been conditioned to have such a knee-jerk reaction to someone with an appearance that is vastly different from what I'm used to seeing day in and day out. Brown people in headgear = bad news. I fully realize that is not an appropriate response to another human being, and I fully own it.

I hope that satisfactorily answers your odd line of questioning, because I'm not here to argue such a silly point and find your tone antagonistic.

Clearly there is much that I (and others) need to educate ourselves on. I'm by no means an expert, but I do have the wherewithal to understand that the extremists are not representative of the vast majority of Muslims and reactionary fear that results in the systematic degradation of countless people is not the answer.

sikh wear turbans, but so do some muslims... annie, what do you mean when you say muslims do not? are their head garb called something else??

after the terror of 9/11 and seeing pictures of OBL all over the news, etc for months and months, i think it was a kneejerk reaction for some or maybe even many to look and take note and maybe even to experience some degree of fear or concern when seeing what they thought was a muslim in mass transit situations... i don't think TR was all that unusual in her reaction...

Amck, I do feel your pain. My DD worries about backlash against her children when they are old enough to attend school. My DSIL is a practicing Muslim and a dear, sweet man. Before they started to date she talked about her friend and I always asked why they weren't dating as I could tell she was very drawn to him. She was worried about dating him because they worked together and she didn't think a workplace romance was smart. I do think she was worried about us accepting him. I can honestly say I welcomed him with open arms. It breaks my heart to think of all the prejudice they and their children will face but I think there are still a lot of good in the world. I do agree though with Marlene's statement that I am rather grateful to be closer to the end than the beginning.

Busy bee, after 9/11 the thing that made me most proud of my country was the fact that there isn't a typical American. We come from all over the world. We are all colors, all religions. My fervent wish is that we would learn from history what happens when we hate because of a person's religion.

My fervent wish is that we would learn from history what happens when we hate because of a person's religion.

Exactly.

"Loved this rebuttal from our president yesterday - heard on NPR...

"During a news conference in Argentina on Wednesday, President Obama
went after Cruz, alluding to surveillance programs in Cuba, a country he
just left. "As far as the notion of having surveillance of
neighborhoods where Muslims are present, I just left a country that
engages in that kind of neighborhood surveillance," Obama said, "which
by the way, the father of Sen. Cruz escaped for America, the land of the
free. The notion that we would start down that slippery slope makes
absolutely no sense. It's contrary to who we are. And it's not going to
help us defeat ISIL.""

That's rich, coming from the man whose Justice Dept. wants to spy on your iPhone & whose IRS harasses conservatives and monitors churches for political content.

hollykay, yes!

I was instantly fearful of him because I have been conditioned to have
such a knee-jerk reaction to someone with an appearance that is vastly
different from what I'm used to seeing day in and day out.

A little OT, but relevant. I was born in 1962, so my early years were mid-60s. I can remember my grandmother and my aunt drumming into me the fear of black men. I guess it was typical of the time. If you saw a black man on the street, you were to cross to the other side. I hate that I still have that knee-jerk reaction, but it is ingrained in me. I know it's wrong, but it's subconscious. The other day, we were working in a yard in a perfectly nice, suburban subdivision. I saw a young black male walking past, and my first thought was to wonder what he was up to. Of course my second thought was that he has every right to be here. But I hate that I had the first thought at all.

"You've got to be taught to hate and fear..."

But then, there comes a time when you make a conscious decision to let that go, put it away. Everyone has baggage, but you don't need to carry it with you forever. Talking the talk is not the same as walking the walk.

Clichés over.

aok, I too was born in 1962 and your words resonate with me. I can't pinpoint specific instances that caused me to feel that people with skin darker than mine were dangerous or inferior, but there must have been an undercurrent of that attitude that was present in my surroundings. I don't recall there ever being a black kid at my school. There probably was once I reached high school and transferred to a very large campus, but if so there could not possibly have been more than a handful at most. My world was white. And I think I suffered then because of it, and I suffer because of it even to this day, in deeply ingrained knee-jerk responses on a visceral level. I do believe I recognize it for what it is, though, and I know what is right and true and how to separate that from the lies that became a part of my psyche at a very young age.

You do have to consciously decide what to hold onto and what to let go. We can't help those knee-jerk responses, but with our very next breath we have to right our wrong thoughts and carry on in love.

Interesting. I am 10 years older. Our schools were integrated in 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was signed, 10 years after Brown V. Board of Education of Topeka. I am so surprised and sad that you both grew up with those feelings/teachings. I think I had the advantage of being old enough to read the newspaper and watch the news showing the marches, the Freedom Riders, the church bombings, the assassinations. That changed the trajectory of my life despite the teachings of my family. I am amazed that your schools were not integrated by the time you started. And even now when we hear your stories, we have people who fall all over themselves to claim there is no racism anymore (yikes, not saying you are at all-just that if you could have such feelings as you say you do, imagine what some others are feeling). Sigh.

As part of their faith, Sikh's wear turbans that look much like this one regardless of where they are.

In the west, muslim men typically do not wear headgear or they may wear what are called kufi that look like a skull cap.

The square cotton fabric with the ropes around it a la Arafat is called a keffiyeh.

Some muslims in some countries do wear turbans such as those with a long tail worn in Afghanistan which they call a lungee.

So while I should've not said muslim men don't wear turbans at all, they typically don't wear turbans in the west whereas Sikhs will and of a particular style.

TR, I appreciate your honesty and I'm sorry if I came across as antagonistic...I guess I was just reacting to your "educate yourself" statement which seemed to me as with a condescending tone. I could've reacted better.

Yes...this is certainly a heartbreaking time for many groups....civic, religious, racial/ethnic, etc. I DON'T LIKE the fact that I'm a little "warier" now of the Muslim world. I never used to be!

Thankfully, I grew up with no racial "cautions" like some here have mentioned!! My DW's Grandmother was TERRIBLY racist, DW tells me! NONE of it filtered down past DW's Dad though!

Like younger Americans "back in the day", there will always be some "hooligans".

BUT...when younger Muslim-practicing people TODAY start embracing the fanatical side of things, & ACTIVELY SEEKING TO HARM others....that's when the gloves come off IMO. So...when that line is crossed, as it tragically is frequently nowadays...then GOD help them.

>>> I'm NOT a fan of "turn the other cheek" sheepish mentality. "Prick us...do we not bleed? Wrong us......"

Faron

I was raised by two liberal parents in Memphis, Tn. In 1973, I was in the 3rd grade when busing commenced in order to desegregate the schools. My friends were moved to private schools. My parents could not afford for me to go to private school and decided it would be a good, formative experience for me to be bused and be part of the desegregation process. And it was.

Every single day, I am appalled by the bigotry and racism of rural west Texas, where I am now.

so, to respond to the original question posed by TR; no, I don't even know any Muslims, at all. I'm sure there are Muslims in the larger "city" thirty miles away but there are none in my town of 15,000. I would have never believed I would end up somewhere with so little diversity.

Actually, I don't think anyone has to be taught to fear and hate. Neuroscientists are finding evidence that racism and prejudice are hardwired into our brains. Not surprising, really, when you consider 10s of 1,000s of years of evolution where suspicion of other groups, tribes, people, etc. was key to survival...to recognize the safety and security of "your own" and fear and potential danger from "others" who might be after you or your resources. Politicians love to exploit these fears as fear is the most efficient way to unite and rally people around a cause.

On the flip side, while humans have the capacity for empathy, there is evidence that empathy needs to be taught to fully emerge.

It is perhaps this imbalance between innate racism and separateness and the effort required to teach and learn empathy that keeps bias alive and well, generation after generation, wherever humans appear. The only thing that seems to change is the specific group that is targeted, depending on who is doing the targeting.

Like younger Americans "back in the day", there will always be some "hooligans".

Is that what they're called when they're white? Hooligans!

BUT...when younger Muslim-practicing people TODAY start embracing the fanatical side of things, & ACTIVELY SEEKING TO HARM others....that's when the gloves come off IMO. So..when that line is crossed, as it tragically is frequently nowadays...then GOD help them.

You don't seem to see the irony in that.... "then GOD help them"!

That is, exactly, what they think GOD is doing.

You might want to consider that ALL sides throughout history, recent, most recent and past history all have committed atrocities in the name of GOD.

LT-

I was using a euphemism of that time frame (from corny old tv & radio shows) on purpose. That WAS a stern word describing the "miscreants" at the time.

>>> And, Lizzie....go back & read that post. I never said "whites". YOU interjected that....just sayin'....

Also...I purposely used that "ironic" statement! And, no....they feel they're doing "God's bidding"....waging war on "unbelievers".

Faron

Awm03, I can't let your snipe pass: "That's rich, coming from the man whose Justice Dept. wants to spy on your iPhone & whose IRS harasses conservatives and monitors churches for political content."

Having just finished serving as the treasurer of a legitimate 501(c)(3) non-profit for 15 years (a nature preserve maintained for educational use), I can't begin to tell you the havoc caused by the relatively recent dishonest and illegal practice of filing for non-profit status by overtly political groups (i.e., "tea-party" and other such entities) who assert they are "educational". It is in the government's interest to support truly religious, charitable and educational groups, which perform a public good, hence, tax relief for non-profits. In exchange for being tax-exempt, non-profits agree, by law, to not engage in political activity beyond a certain extent (some is actually allowed, but not more than half of funds expended), because, otherwise, the government could be perceived as supporting partisan activities, one group over another.

Churches have not been allowed to engage in politics for decades, at least, for this specific reason -- I am not sure why it is such a big deal now. If they want to go electioneering, they can always pay taxes, right?

The IRS has been trying desperately in the past few years to find a way to adhere to the laws and separate the sheep from the goats with respect to political expenditures and the legitimate purposes of groups, leading to an extreme expansion in the number of pages and questions in the Form 990 that non-profits must file (thanks a lot for making my job harder, disingenuous tea party types).

The IRS is an equal-opportunity "harasser", since they also screened groups with the words "occupy", "progressive", and "Israel" in their names (see article, IRS Screening). Political activity of any sort does not belong in non-profits, period, so the IRS was simply trying to do their job, however ineptly.

By the way, I teach biology to many newly-arrived as well as natural-born Muslim students at a community college, and they pretty much run the student gamut, from brilliant to hopeless. But, I haven't met one yet that I thought was evil or even unpleasant. Extremists of every sort, I presume, are relatively rare.

Thank you for this, Catspa. What a valuable perspective to share.

As an educator, I have loads to say about the ADA laws that are being abused in education settings. It would be easy for me to take a stance against them but I realize that these laws can be abused despite their intentions. Every law has a loophole. Application of the law takes critical thinking.

Just to clarify, then I'll stop going off on tangents. My schools were not segregated. We lived in a relatively prosperous suburb, but there was no busing of kids from other areas. But like TR's school, I don't remember any black kids until I got to high school. There was one guy. He was there a couple of years until they moved away. I just lived in a very white-bread area. My grandmother lived in the city, obviously, since there were very few suburbs when she was born in 1894. This was northeast Ohio, if that makes a difference.

I went to a large high school, very diverse, until my senior year. I had friends of all races, ethnicities, and backgrounds.

My family bought a big working ranch in a tiny town over an hour away, and I went from having 600+ kids in my class, to 50 (this was in the 80s). There was one black family in our town, and the daughter was in my class. We became best friends quickly, not only because we were both new and from the city, but we just hit it off. We had so much fun.

One day, we were getting books from our lockers, and the principal walked up, looking very angry. He told us to come to his office. We were terrified! He told us that someone's locker had been broken into, and did we know about that? We said no, of course not. He turned to me, and said I could go. Just me. Later, my friend came out in tears, and said he told her he KNEW it was her who did it, and came right out and said why: her color. He said he had no proof, but knew. He berated her for half an hour. It came out later that a boy in our class did it ... no apology to my friend, and the boy wasn't punished.

I cried with her. I'll never forget that day as long as I live. She was/is one of the sweetest and most innocent people I've ever known. She wouldn't hurt a fly. Her dad threw a huge fit, understandably, but nothing came of it. Please. The majority of people in the town were related.

It was my first experience with racism, and it affected me deeply, even though I was raised by my liberal dad, and had grown up in such a diverse manner. Of course I knew it existed, and studied history, but was still naive to certain aspects. I just remember feeling so angry and helpless on her behalf. It broke my heart to see her crying, and feeling ashamed and humiliated -- when she'd done nothing wrong at school, except not being born white (in the principal's eyes). Wow. It still makes me upset, all these years later. I moved to Europe right after graduation, and was so glad to leave that town.

Faron, I kind of share your feelings in this conversation which is the reason I stated in my original post about being aware. Unfortunately, the various massacres that have taken place make people feel violated such as my self.

As far as immigration, many here my not appreciate my views. But when our great-grandparents, grandparent, or parents came to the US. They worked hard. No one gave them help or welfare. They appreciated being able to live better lives, practice what their religions are (with minimal problems), and prosper in respect to what they had. They assimilated and did not expect America to assimilate to them. That's the beauty of freedom.

I have an issue with not providing money, housing, healthcare, and jobs for refugees coming to the US and us not having money to take care of our own.

Radicalization can happen in many different forms by many peoples but it seems to me that the Muslim community may know radicals and think they would do no harm or know they will and/or are having a hard time differentiating those that potentially can and those that won't. Look at what is going on in Brussels today. Very sad. The authorities were warned of the potential by Israel and the US. And yes Israel has the best intelligence in the world, they develop the technology and the US uses it. They are our friends and there are reasons we give them so much $$.

So yes and unfortunately we have become wary whether we like it or not. I have worked with Muslims in the past and found them extremely intelligent (they were doctors) and religious differences did not matter. There was a common cause. Helping people. I don't believe anyone's God teaches them to kill people. It's a hatred thing that is very sick.

Correction third paragraph." I meant I have an issue with providing".

"My schools were not segregated. We lived in a relatively prosperous suburb, but there was no busing of kids from other areas. But like TR's school, I don't remember any black kids until I got to high school. There was one guy. He was there a couple of years until they moved away. I just lived in a very white-bread area."

That is what we call de facto segregation. It is exactly what occurred where I grew up. No people of color in our neighborhoods. They all lived on the "other side" of the tracks, so to speak. It is how white people managed segregation in a way that they could deny they were doing it. Heaven knows, no one would have sold a home in our area to anyone of color back then.

I am grateful every day of my life for those who stood on the front lines of civil rights battles. I live outside Washington, D.C. I moved here when my son was young to raise him in a diverse environment away from the "white bread" wealthy one in which I grew up and returned to after my divorce. He is 36 now and his friends come from every background, religion or lack thereof, nationality, color, etc. i do think it is a choice.

I have to admit that when I was younger I did not have a healthily feeling towards Muslim men but it was due to a bad personal experience. Ones religion never mattered to me much as far as dating went. As a young woman I met a Muslim man from south Africa who I thought was so kind and wonderful as was his whole family. However, further into the relationship I discovered slapping their wives and girl friends around was a normal everyday thing. It was tried on me once but I was in good physical shape and kick boxed his liver and the rest of his organs out his backside. So, my Muslim men feelings were tainted for a long time. Since I have grown into a mature woman I realize that those type of men can come in any religion (actually I knew this but still did labelling). I have known a few Muslim women over the years who are so sweet. Sadly though our country seems to overall put people in groups of "being the same". We do it with political parties as well...like, all Democrates are the same and all Repulicans are the same. As a whole we are groupers.

"Having just finished serving as the treasurer of a legitimate
501(c)(3) non-profit for 15 years (a nature preserve maintained for
educational use), I can't begin to tell you the havoc caused by the
relatively recent dishonest and illegal practice of filing for
non-profit status by overtly political groups (i.e., "tea-party" and
other such entities) who assert they are "educational". It is in the
government's interest to support truly religious, charitable and
educational groups, which perform a public good, hence, tax relief for
non-profits. In exchange for being tax-exempt, non-profits agree, by
law, to not engage in political activity beyond a certain extent (some
is actually allowed, but not more than half of funds expended), because,
otherwise, the government could be perceived as supporting partisan
activities, one group over another."

But the Obama administration does support partisan activities, one group over another, that are overtly political. See the article below. The gist of the article is the Justice Department files suits against corporations for alleged violations, settles for $$$, then funnels the money to liberal activist groups (all the ones mentioned are 501(c), note) that support the Democrats, . Is your beef only against 501(c) non-profits that promote Repub/conservative/libertarian ideas? I hope not.

Justice Dept. Funnels Money to Liberal Activist Groups

And the IRS did single out conservative 501(c) non-profits:

federal-appeals-court-rebukes-irs-allows-tea-party-class-action-lawsuit-to-proceed/

BTW, I attended a tea party rally -- just a bunch of middle age, middle class people crabbing about high taxes, tired of being seen as a piggy bank to raid. They certainly weren't the nut job whackos the media portrayed them to be, and certainly not racists or gun-totin' firebrands.

Anyway, apologies for being OT. If anybody is alarmed because I lean conservative on some issues, please, please, please don't assume I'm racist/homophobic/greedy/evil/selfish or whatever else you think of non-liberals. I'm none of those things. I too go out of my way to make my Muslim acquaintances feel welcome here and that they are not to be held accountable for the actions of extremists. From what I read, the peaceful Muslims are just as much victims for extremists as non-Muslims are.

awn said:

" If anybody is alarmed because I lean conservative on some issues, please, please, please don't assume I'm racist/homophobic/greedy/evil/selfish or whatever else you think of non-liberals. I'm none of those things. "

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don't equate "conservative" or "republican" with any of those things. Stereotyping is never appropriate, in my opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Edited.

Jerseygirl, your view of immigrants (as coming to this county for welfare or benefits) is directly opposite my experience with immigrants. From the time I was a kid going to school with Hispanic kids, some of whom were the children of illegal immigrants and some of whom were migrant farm workers, to now, living in the San Francisco Bay Area with its Yemeni-owned quick marts, Indian tech guys, Latino restaurant workers, and all the others across the immigrant spectrum, they all come here to work. In fact, your comment about your parents and grandparents pretty much sums up my experience with the recent immigrants I have had contact with:

"They worked hard. No one gave them help or welfare. They appreciated being able to live better lives, practice what their religions are (with minimal problems), and prosper in respect to what they had."

"We are all entitled to our opinions without being labeled in a negative way."

I would agree if you had a period after the word opinions. However, there are some opinions that should be labeled in negative ways. I suspect everyone can think of at least a few.

Awm, let me clarify. The practice the IRS has been trying to forestall is about 501(c)(4) groups ("social welfare" organizations) using a higher percentage of the funds supposedly collected for tax-exempt purposes than is allowed under the law (which limits donations to political candidates, campaigning, or that sort of thing to something less than half -- political activity can be part of a "social welfare" or 501(c)(4) group's activities, in other words, but not the major part). The 501(c)(4)s that proliferated during the Tea Party movement, and after the Citizens United case, have been doing just that, by using vague descriptions, if not outright lies, about their activities (and 501(c)(4) is an advantageous vehicle for them due to donor anonymity -- the Koch brothers love that). 501(c)(3) groups are not allowed to engage in direct political activity at all, but we suffered because of how Form 990 was changed because of 501(c)(4) malfeasance.

Groups set up for various causes may be viewed as "left" or "right", depending on the cause (many religion-based tax-exempts and their favorite charities and causes -- homes for unwed mothers to prevent abortions, for example -- might fall on the "right" side of that ledger, while environmental and social activist groups might be viewed as being on the "left"). Both the NRA and the Sierra Club are 501(c)(4). However, NONE of them should be funneling more than the amount of money allowed by law to political activities. I have no problem with conservative groups doing charitable or "social welfare" work; the more the merrier.

The one article you cite is an opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal, by the way. I was not allowed past their paywall, but opinion pieces from the WSJ have a certain reputation (as do those from the NYT, of course!). The other article just says that the IRS used dubious screening methods to try to ferret out suspect groups when faced with an overwhelming number of 501(c)(4) filings after Citizens United; nobody disputes that.

Cyn, yeah, after reading my post, I realize that I made a misstatement.

Cawaps, what I should have stated was refugees. Here we have many illegal immigrants. Yes they work very hard and do the jobs that many unemployed would not even consider. I agree with you 100%. I sponsored someone for a student Visa from Brazil. She's had a very happy ending here. Married another Brazilian with a business and green card and had a baby. She is also in an ESL program. I believe something needs to be done to allow law abiding, hard working of illegal immigrants to have a path to citizenship. But also feel we need to make sure we control our borders to make sure people enter legally going forward.

Where, pray tell, should refugees go?

Isn't there any sort of organization in America where people can personally sponsor a refugee family in their own home? The sponsor could help them learn English , get a drivers license , maybe purchase a cheap car, help them find a job, find childcare ect.. Until eventually they saved enough to rent a house or apartment. The sponsor could also help them purchase used furniture for the rental .

For a family of four one would only need to come up with a minimal $1,500 (includes a few personal basics) a month plus any Heath copy's , a little driving around and purhapes down the road a cheap $5000 car and $3000 in cheap furniture when they get their own place in a year or two.

i figure it would take about two years though to acclimate to the point of getting a place of their own so it would only be a $44,000 investment from the sponsor.

There are some Americans wealthy enough to do this easily.

For me personally...we are still trying to get enough money to retire some day. And also, if I have extra money I would like to be able to help my kids. So, I'm torn because it will cost millions and millions to bring all the refugees here. With so many Americans living at or below poverty level who is going to pay for it all?

TR I get all that. In between the pictures are people who want to hurt people. I'm not saying all the refugees are the same. There needs to be a plan to assimilate them and make sure they are not radicalized. Rightfully people are feeling unsafe.

justerrilynn, a number of churches and individuals partnering with those organizations have long been and are continuing to address such needs. But it's not enough, and jerseygirl is right when she says that not everyone will appreciate her views. I certainly don't. I am appalled by the U.S. governors who issued statements refusing to accept Syrian refugees, and have no earthly idea how many of these people are one and the same who espouse their "Christian, family values", while demonstrating absolutely no Christ-like traits and turning their backs on families in need because they didn't have the good fortune to be born in America.

"I have an issue with providing money, housing, healthcare, and jobs for refugees coming to the US and us not having money to take care of our own."

That doesn't seem to have much to do with fearing for your safety.

TR I do appreciate your views. You may not appreciate mine but that's what makes discussions interesting. There is no right or wrong when it comes to people's feelings about tragic current events. It's their feelings and that's okay with me. Is that okay with you?

By the way not everyone here is Christian. It doesn't mean our values and teachings are not aligned. We did evolve from the same beginnings and I do believe that we are different for a reason. Challenges are put into our lives for a reason. Wouldn't life be boring and too easy if we were all the same?

catspa wrote: "The practice the IRS has been trying to forestall is about 501(c)(4)
groups ("social welfare" organizations) using a higher percentage of the
funds supposedly collected for tax-exempt purposes than is allowed
under the law (which limits donations to political candidates,
campaigning, or that sort of thing to something less than half --
political activity can be part of a "social welfare" or 501(c)(4)
group's activities, in other words, but not the major part). The
501(c)(4)s that proliferated during the Tea Party movement, and after
the Citizens United case, have been doing just that, by using
vague descriptions, if not outright lies, about their activities (and
501(c)(4) is an advantageous vehicle for them due to donor anonymity --
the Koch brothers love that). 501(c)(3) groups are not allowed to engage
in direct political activity at all, but we suffered because of how
Form 990 was changed because of 501(c)(4) malfeasance."

No, the issue is that the IRS was denying 501(c)(4) applications to conservative groups in a pattern that indicated unfairly targeting them for their political beliefs. If MoveOn.org -- hardly a "social welfare" organization -- can be considered a 501(c)(4) group (George Soros and Peter Lewis love that too), then it is hypocrisy to deny the same right to assemble and advocate to citizens who, though they don't share your political point of view, have every right to express it via the same organizational methods. I am not buying the excuse that the fault was shadiness on the part of the groups themselves when liberal 501(c)(4) application were approved and conservative ones were not. Sorry it made your job harder, but pinning the disingenuity on tea party groups only is disingenuous a disingenuous statement itself.

This is the kind of funneling of Justice Department settlements to liberal activist groups that the WSJ link was referring to:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2014/08/doj-give-leftist-groups-cut-b-settlement/

You won't like that source either, but it's the sort of topic that the Democrat-leaning media doesn't report on. Thank goodness for the internet.

Of course I know not everyone here is Christian and I never made that claim. The point was that the state governors that officially refused to take in Syrian immigrants on the whole claim to embrace "Christian" values. And to me, that's a sad joke.

Well, I think it's fair to say we are in difficult times and decisions are being made to protect our communities from situations such as Brussels and France and this is the best that they can do in light of current events. Look how brazen these guys were. Right where the EU is located. So sad.

Unfortunately, certain groups of people get targeted and lumped in with the bad guys.

Muslims have reason to fear Isis just as much (or more) as non-Muslims:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-isis-responsible-for-more-muslim-victims-than-western-deaths-a6737326.html

That's very telling, MizGG. Heartbreaking, isn't it, the way that we are so wrapped up in our own culture that the headlines scream when something happens to "people like us", but there is silence when the people affected are quite different.

Unfortunately, certain groups of people get targeted and lumped in with the bad guys.

Oh, well.

Not to worry.... it hasn't happened to your group, eh?

I bet you'd be a lot less willing to cede "others" getting LUMPED, and BUT GOOD, if it were your group.

It seems that it would be counterintuitive to fighting radicalism and potential terrorist recruiting by making these of young men (and some women) feel even more ostracized and hated; by justifying the rhetoric of the Isis propaganda in their eyes.

Like throwing fuel on embers.

I grew up in the 60's too. I lived in the suburbs outside downtown LA, so it was a diverse area. But my parents (Dad's father) were racist and very, very staunch conservative Republicans. I had a cultural mix of friends, but my parents only encouraged me to be friends with the white kids. I was the weirdo because I had great extended family that were very inclusive. My favorite Uncle is gay and his partner was part of my life from my earliest memories. My folks had black employees and we had a Muslim family from Indonesia move in to the house next door to us. My dad's cousins-who were closer to my age than his-were flower children and I worshipped them as only a kid can. I baby sat for a young couple who smoked weed and listened to Rock n Roll...I immersed myself in culture and grew to be curious about other religions and cultures. I even dated an Iranian student who went to UCLA in 1979. (of course my parents didn't know that!)

My childhood of hearing "roll up the windows and lock the doors" when we drove thru a black neighborhood used to haunt me as a young woman. I had a very, very frightening encounter where I was almost assaulted by a man-I had walked past a couple of black men and I moved to the far side of the sidewalk when I did so, but didn't bother when I passed an Asian guy standing against the wall.

As I walked back to my home, it turned out that the Asian guy had followed me to my doorstep and was about to enter my home when my (then) husband walked into the room and chased the guy down. I'd been so ingrained into believing that I had to be worried about black guys that I was not aware of the other guy. After that incident I realized I could either be afraid of all people who were different from me, or I could try to believe that everyone was basically good-there are creeps in every walk of life.