Pie- out of AP flour, but have cake flour and bread flour

9 years ago

Should I stop myself from wasting an incredible amount of time? I really, really want to make this pie today and really, really don't want to go to the store. Goodness, come to think of it this has been going on for a week- I've been substituting the two flours (half and half) for quite a few bread recipes with great results, but this is pie we're talking about, here...

Tell me what I want to hear... no, tell me the truth. I'll go if I must.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (7)

lindac92
9 years ago
I'm sure it'll be fine....depending on the brand....the difference in the protein content between AP and bread flour is miniscule
grainlady_ks
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If you decide to use bread flour, one of the tips for using high-protein flour is to add a little more fat - above the amount called for in the recipe. Where the additional fat coats the flour, it blocks the water from being absorbed, so it also reduces the amount of gluten that is developed. Be sure to keep mixing to a bare minimum.

You could also use a blend of bread and cake flour and use the regular amount of fat in the recipe.

I disagree with Linda about the protein content being "miniscule". There are more baking "mistakes" made by using the incorrect flour. High-protein flour gives you tough pastry, cookies, and cakes..... Hydration will be completely incorrect - as the chart below will show.

Information from "CookWise" by Shirley O. Chorriher:

Cake flour - 8 g. of protein per cup

National Brand (Gold Medal, Pillsbury) Bleached All-Purpose - 9-10 g. of protein/cup

National Brand Unbleached All-Purpose - 12+ g. protein per cup

Northern Unbleached All-Purpose (King Arthur) - 13 g. protein per cup

Bread Flour - 13-14 g. protein per cup

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The water absorption capacity of white flours for 1-cup of water to form a sticky dough ball in a food processor:

14 g. protein Bread Flour - 2-cups (packed) + 1 T.

13 g. protein Unbleached Flour - 2-cups (packed) + 2 T. water

12 g. protein All-purpose Flour - 2-1/4 c.

11 g. protein All-purpose Flour - 2-1/3 c. + 1 T.

10 g. protein All-purpose Flour - 2-1/2 c.

9 g. protein Southern All-purpose - 2-1/2 c. + 2 T.

8 g. cake flour - 2-3/4 c.

-Grainlady
Related Discussions
Corn Flour vs Brown Rice Flour
Q
Comments (14)
Oh, no! Bad sentence on my part. Southern California. We had a wonderful Syrian bakery that made brilliant pita. I still miss them. My heart breaks for what has happened there, but I've never been to Syria. You haven't said why you're eschewing "enriched flour" and don't need to, but white flour products are required by law to use vitamin enriched flour, and even most home baking white flour (bleached or unbleached) is enriched and has a little malted barley flour in it as well, which has a lot of an enzyme that's needed for rising. Unless you have a specific problem with one or more of the vitamins or the barley, the enrichment shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you're just concerned that there's white flour in there. White flour is often added to whole wheat flour to make the rise spongier. Sometimes vital wheat gluten is added to strengthen the gluten (the bran in the whole wheat can weaken or cut it). Wheat gluten can be isolated by hand by washing the wheat and kneading out the starch, and has been done for centuries, so it's not a weird industrial product. Anything that's made with white flour in the U.S. uses enriched flour. There may be some places that mill and sift their own flours that do not, but that's an extremely rare exception. Therefore, I would guarantee that the Lebanese pita are made with enriched flour. The thinner thing is probably a lack of leavening. Even in the Middle East, nowadays, the pita have leavening and are a bit spongy. That's not traditional. :) I haven't seen Kontos, and I'd guess it's an East Coast brand. I don't doubt that it's good! Whole Foods might be a better place to get 100% whole wheat, however, unless you can find a Middle Eastern or halal store where people are into the "new" kind of dietary laws (no white flour, pasture raise livestock, etc.). Maybe try stores near the colleges? College kids tend to be into better eating. Turlock is from California. I know they freeze to ship it to avoid preservatives, so you might find it there, but more likely the Whole Foods have something local. Good luck on your quest.
...See More
What is Occident flour? Need ideas for 10 Grain flour too.
Q
Comments (4)
Make bread with the occident flour. From the label, the occident flour is bromated (potassium bromate). Years ago it was common for flour to contain bromates and iodates, which are dough conditioners, and they gave bread dough more extensibility. That's when "double" was the common standard to allow dough to rise. Now, without bromates in flour, it's best to only allow dough to rise to just UNDER double or you chance over-proofing the dough. There was an anti-bromate movement and California banned bromates in flour and it has been removed from most commercial flour products. It has been replaced with ascorbic acid. The malted barley flour in the occident flour will add a bit of a nutty flavor. If it was diastatic barley malt, that contributes enzymes that break down the big molecules of starch into the simple sugars that yeast can use. As for the 10-grain flour, check out recipes at Bob's Red Mill (scroll down the page - just before the reviews): Vegan 10-Grain Pancakes Banana Pecan Coffee Cake 10-Grain Yogurt Quick Bread Craig's World Famous Natural Granola (or Bars) Because there are a number of low-gluten and gluten-free grains/seeds/beans in the 10-grain mixture, you need to be mindful of that for making a yeast bread with it. Use it in combination with a high-gluten bread flour for bread so you have enough gluten available (start by substituting 20-25% of the bread flour with 10-grain flour). It will work for quick breads and cookies because of the lower gluten level. -Grainlady Here is a link that might be useful: 10-Grain Flour - Bob's Red Mill
...See More
White Spelt flour as substitute for all purpose flour?
Q
Comments (7)
Thanks, Grainlady. Actually, I went ahead and experimented by sort of combining the above recipe and a recipe I found on line for spelt bread. I used a combination of King Arthur whole wheat flour and the white spelt flour, about half and half, partly because I had already made the biga with the whole wheat flour. Then, I used the following recipe, adjusting the spelt flour amounts and water amounts to try and have the correct total for each ingredient. I used the technique for making ciabatta, where I let it sit, turned the dough, let it sit, turned the dough, until I was ready to bake the bread. It ended up making 2 loaves, which I baked in loaf pans, instead of ciabatta style. Surprisingly, it turned out surprisingly well, considering at the last, I tried to make one loaf out of it, and when I saw the dough spilling out of the pan I realized I had to deflate it yet once again and put it into two loaf pans. Here's the other recipe I used. I used dark honey instead of brown sugar. It's from Versagrain.com. Spelt Flour Recipes Sweet and Hearty Spelt Bread Recipe To cook this Spelt bread recipe you will need a 9 x 5 inch loaf pan and patience. Unlike white bread this recipe for Spelt bread will take twice as long to leaven. From start to finish, it will take 2 - 3 hours. Ingredients (Makes 1 Loaf) 1 1/2 cups warm water (just barely hot to the touch) 1 package active dry yeast (1/4 ounce) 2 1/2 tablespoons brown sugar 1 tablespoon whole flaxseed (optional) 2 1/2 cups whole spelt flour 1 1/2 tablespoons butter, melted 2 1/2 tablespoons brown sugar 1/2 tablespoon salt 1 3/4 cups whole spelt flour 1 tablespoon butter, melted Directions In a large bowl, mix warm water, yeast, 2 1/2 tablespoons brown sugar, and 1 tablespoon of flaxseed (optional). Mix in 2 1/2 cups of spelt flour. Let set for 30 minutes, or until big and bubbly. Mix in 1 1/2 tablespoons melted butter, 2 1/2 tablespoons of brown sugar, and salt. Stir in 1 3/4 cups of spelt flour. Flour a flat surface and knead with spelt flour until it pulls away from the counter but is still sticky to touch. This may take an additional 1 to 2 cups of spelt flour. Place in a greased bowl, turning once to coat the surface of the dough. Cover with a dishtowel. Let rise in a warm place until doubled (about 30 minutes). Punch down and place in greased 9 x 5 inch loaf pan. Allow to rise until dough has topped the pan by one inch. Depending on your yeast this will take between 1 - 2 hours. Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 25 to 30 minutes; do not over bake. Lightly brush the tops of loaves with 1 tablespoon of melted butter when done to prevent crust from getting hard. Cool completely. TIP: Place a loaf pan of the same size over the top of the loaf while baking to create a better crust. Substitutions and Additions Honey can be substituted for the brown sugar in this whole spelt bread recipe. Substitute white spelt flour, hard white wheat flour, or bread flour for the 2 1/2 cups of whole spelt flour to create an even lighter and fluffier loaf of whole grain bread. To give this recipe a crunch, consider adding walnuts. In this whole grain bread recipe we included the option for flaxseed because here at versagrain.com we are big proponents of incorporating flaxseed into your diet. Its high protein, fiber, and omega 3 fatty acids makes flaxseed a nutritional powerhouse your body can use to fight depression, cancer, and heart disease.
...See More
Your AP flour-- do you use unbleached or not?
Q
Comments (15)
Annie - Yep, I'm gluten-free (3-years - gluten-intolerance, not celiac disease) but I still teach all kinds of classes, and do even more 1 on 1 mentoring through the Extension Office than classes these days (yeast and naturally-leavened bread, bread machine, grains and milling), just as I have for the past 25-years. I no longer judge foods at fairs due to gluten-intolerance, but I still train new judges. Even though I have eliminated gluten, I still mill my own flour when I make wheat-based baked goods (or other gluten-containing grains) for the rest of the family or visiting guests, as well as milling my own gluten-free flours from a variety of grains/seeds/beans. I just don't make 100% whole wheat bread nearly every week like I did before going gluten-free. I'm busy making all our gluten-free breads and baked goods now, as well as still developing sorghum recipes for a local mill. About your bread challenges.... These may be some reasons why you have so much trouble using home-milled flour. The type of wheat you purchased, the fineness of the milled flour (fine flour = fine bread - coarse flour = coarse bread), or failure to add an acid to the dough (1/8 t. ascorbic acid powder per loaf) to counteract the damage to the gluten from Glutathione found in wheat germ (which leads to short squatty loaves with a coarse grain). My panned loaves of enriched 100% whole wheat bread are as high-rising and nearly as fine a texture as white bread - but that didn't happen until I started using the sponge method and adding ascorbic acid. If you are using a straight dough method (best suited for white bread and light wheat using commercial bleached/unbleached flours - a more modern method designed for making bread quickly), instead of using an old-fashioned sponge method (which is best suited for wholegrain flours), that may be a contributing factor as well. Some of the heirloom wheat varieties, when freshly-milled into wholegrain flour, require 2-day processes for making good bread - usually due to the low amount of gluten in these old varieties. Remember, before the 1870's and the advent of hard red winter wheat being grown in Kansas, all wheat, and the milled flour, was from soft wheat varieties. So -- soft wheat can be used for making bread, it just won't be the high-rising loaves of bread made in an hour in a bread machine, and there are older technics used. I've also done tests for a mill that had hard winter wheat with a 16% protein level (which is very high), and you have to knead it nearly forever to get that much protein developed when using a straight dough method - but it's a cinch when you use a soaked flour method, and you need very little kneading. My knowledge is from years of training as a foods judge at fairs using judging standards for what characteristics are considered "best" for the baked goods being judged; and knowing the science after years of classes and study about wheat/flour, and other grains, and baking characteristics. You have to be equally as informed as to what is right as to what went wrong when you judge. It's not just about what "looks" good. These are also based on industry standards from restaurants to commercial bakeries. You probably won't see a pizza place using all-purpose flour, it's the wrong standard for pizza dough - BUT - you can make pizza dough with all-purpose flour - it's just not the optimum flour choice. Knowing the science really IS the difference between good and best when using judging standards. Personal preference aside. -Grainlady
...See More
lindac92
9 years ago
The AP flour I buy, Montana wheat contains 5 grams of protein per 180 grams of flour.,..or 1/4 cup....that's 20 grams per cup
A national brand bread flour contains less
plllog
9 years ago
What I learned is that there is so much rounding error that you can't rely on the numbers on the nutrition labels to assess the amount of protein in flour, and that 1% difference can make a big difference in baking.

You've already been making your own AP by combining your bread flour and cake flour and you could do the same for your pie. If you think it's too "heavy", put in a little more cake flour and a little less bread flour.
notjenniferwilson
Original Author
9 years ago
So what I've been doing is, essentially, making AP flour? I wasn't sure, but had hoped :)

Grainlady- what a wealth of information! Very interesting.
grainlady_ks
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Yep, you've been making AP flour. National brands of all-purpose flour are a blend of high-protein hard wheat (that's what your bread flour is milled from) and low-protein soft wheat (cake flour and Southern all-purpose flour like White Lily, Martha White, Gladiola, Red Band). It's really not the optimal flour for anything, other than soft dinner rolls. It has enough protein to make pretty good yeast breads, and not so much protein so it does fairly well with baked goods that requires less gluten-development like cookies, cakes, and quick breads. But, because of it's general availability for decades, it's become the "common" go-to flour for nearly everything. Cake flour was the other available flour and favored for cake-making. Southern All-Purpose Flour (not available everywhere) was used for biscuits, pastry and some quick breads and is a better choice than National Brands of All-Purpose Flour. Bread flour wasn't available to most homemakers until the advent of the Bread Machine in the 1980's.

When I mill hard wheat, the texture is quite rough when you rub the flour between your fingers. Soft wheat mills into flour that is almost like talcum powder.

-Grainlady
annie1992
9 years ago
I agree with plllog, you've been making AP flour. Just mix the two and make pie crust. If you rely on how pastry looks and feels instead of just on measurements, it'll come out fine. Somehow, even though I always use King Arthur all purpose and I use the same old Farm Journal recipe and I use my own home rendered lard, each time I make pastry I need a bit more or less water or fat or flour to roll the dough. It's never the same, so I start with the given measurements, assess what the dough "needs", add that and go from there!

But what are you going to do when you run out of flour? (grin) You're going to have to go to the store at some point, unless Amazon Pantry will deliver for you!

Annie

Pie- out of AP flour, but have cake flour and bread flour

Comments (7)

lindac92

grainlady_ks

Related Discussions

lindac92

plllog

notjenniferwilson
Original Author

grainlady_ks

annie1992

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Pie- out of AP flour, but have cake flour and bread flour

Comments (7)

lindac92

grainlady_ks

Related Discussions

lindac92

plllog

notjenniferwilsonOriginal Author

grainlady_ks

annie1992

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

notjenniferwilson
Original Author