Here, let's know what we're really discussing: On a practical note, when the adult moths will fly a couple of miles to find a mate or an appropriate host crop for their eggs, will 20 or 50 or 100 feet of isolation space make any real difference? Probably not IMHO. Your best bet is heavy use of Bt powder during the summer. I spread it around my garden on various crops about every 10 days. Alas, I admit that I do not get black swallowtail or monarch larvae in my yard, but I also don't have problems with cabbage worms or corn earworms or tomato hornworms. Unless I forget for at least a month. The beauty of Bt is that it's safe, cheap, and easy to apply. I use my "Dustin' Mizer" and do it on a windy day for maximum dispersal. Biologic warfare at its best. Here is a link that might be useful: Corn earworm aka tomato fruitworm

Sue, thanks for the tip on Heritage Roses NW. I will check into that. Here is my list. I didn't include the climbers because I think I know how to place them. And this list doesn't include all the Austins I want to get and all the OGRs I want to get now that I have found this forum! LOL All of these roses are mostly from Heirloom which is local for me and RU (from Pat's suggestions). Amazing Grace Abraham Darby Ambridge Rose Bonica Bolero Brigadoon Cassie Cecile Brunner Courageous Desiree Elle Flutterbye Frederic Mistral Graham Thomas Hot Cocoa Jacqueline Du Pre Jude The Obscure Lady Mitchell Lavaglut Lavender Dream Lemon Spice Louise Clements Miss Dior Molineux Mystic Beauty Outta The Blue Pat Austin Peach Blossom Pegasus Pillow Fight Pink Knock Out Pretty Jessica QueenÂs London Child Reconciliation Roberto Capucci Sans Soucci Sharifa Asma St. Swithun Sunsprite Tamora Tess Of The DÂurbervilles Thornbury Castle Tournament Of Roses Well-Being I am putting together a list of roses I want to get for the future and will have to plan for those roses too. Wow, this is a big job! So I will have, like I said, a bunch of OGRs and some more Austins to add to my plan but I don't have that list finalized yet. I wanted to see how much space I have left before I order more. Oh, and all the roses from Heirlooms are band size. And the ones from RU are gallons. I am having a hard time making sure all these bands stay watered. I have planted some roses from Heirloom before and they did fine without potting them into gallons first before putting them in the garden. So I would like to plant these bands as soon as possible. Thanks for your help! Karen

Seperation is only needed if you are trying to collect pure seed. And then you can still collect if you bag or cage your flowers. I plan on growing all my plants within 18" of one another and plan on growing everyting from Sweet Chocolates and Cervena Chushka to Naga's and Habanaros in the same bed.

I can't sleep worrying about all this, trying to do too much for me. You didn't say how far apart. Maybe the rototill guy will know. I want the guy to help me measure and mark 8 5' divisions for 4X4 posts (for climbing roses and clematis next year) I want to still have the tomatoes this year and get the posts going before the first frost if I can without damaging the tomatoes. If I get the posts in early enough, I might even be able to start some clematis and smaller rose starts (some online vendors ship them in much smaller pots than gallon, just takes them a little longer but so will waiting until spring). After all I've spent, I don't want to buy tomato cages this year because I may not grow them again or at least that many. I'd need the heavy duty round kind or the big square ones, at least 11 or 12, and they are more expensive. I picked up the heavy duty fence posts cheap, nice used ones, painted green. Maybe the soaker hose would work, but I've heard they clog and are are a pain to get unclogged if you even can, and our water has a lot of lime in it. Irrigation is better, easier to fix if you can find the problem but harder to design and install. I'd need to run it about 15 more feet to the water tap and buy one of those 2/4-way thingies, run it across the sidewalk (not a city one), cover it with a mat to lessen the chance of tripping over it. Thanks for the help. I don't have to plant every last one if it comes to that, 10 would be more than enough for me if they do anything. After I get the other going, I don't know what I will do about tomatoes, I really like having a few of my own every year and enough to can several quarts if possible. Can't have everything. I decided to have him dig 5' wide instead of 4. There is enough room, but 6' might be pushing it. I'll see what he thinks.