Congratulations on getting started with raised beds. Do you mind giving a little background about the design of your beds? For example, is there a specific reason for the high amounts of compost in the topsoil?

When I made raised beds, I used just the best topsoil I could find on my property. The soil was good quality clay soil, although it tended to be alkaline due to the local environment.

A local, high quality nursery in that location (Boise, Idaho) sold a product made from humic shale ore that I used to condition the clay. Excellent stuff called 'Huma Green' that is made from humic and fulvic acid and turns the clay into a chocolate cake crumbly soil. I applied homemade compost to the surface of that topsoil. The Huma Green had nitrogen in it and my tomatoes had a lot of leaf growth that year. I used a commercial vegetable garden fertilizer, too.

I have grown some of the stuff you're planning and didn't experience any problems.

Lately I have heard numerous reports of problems with both 'topsoil' and 'compost' purchased from local suppliers. I don't think anybody is intending fraud, but I suspect that the soil being sold is intended for lawns and landscaping and doesn't work well in vegetable gardens.

Paul

A good soil for a vegetable garden is composed of about 45 percent sand, 25 percent clay, 25 percent silt, and 5 percent organic matter, although
I prefer the organic matter level in my soil to be between 6 and 8 percent.

Compost, from what ever source, is meant to be a soil amendment and not a major component of soil, an additive but not half of the soil mix. While adding large amounts of organic material, compost, shredded leaves, and other vegetative waste, is necessary to achieve the 5 to 10 percent organic matter level, and while it will take time for the Soil Food Web to reduce the amount of organic material to the appropriate level of organic matter, a soil composed of too much organic matter can be as much of a problem as a soil with too little organic matter.

Be not swayed by someone telling you that what you need is some ephemeral substance called "topsoil" since that has no real meaning.

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/the_shocking_truth_about_topsoil

kimmq is kimmsr

Thank you both for your comments.

My raised bed(s) are 12" high, two will be 4'x8' and my current one is 4' x 7'. They were built on top of lawn (I put newspaper down and one layer of cardboard). There is a risk of wireworms so we removed as little sod as possible. There are lots of earthworms in the bed - it's great!

The fill was a 50/50 mix from a local supplier. Because of where I live, fish compost is a readily available resource, and when I started this garden bed last year I figured that this would be a good mix to add. It comes with a lot of wood chips in it at first, which I understand can be a problem. I know where the topsoil comes from and I have no concerns with it - mostly from undisturbed, uncontaminated forested land. The topsoil is mostly clay based here and on the acidic side. We do have a composter for kitchen scraps but it's not very much at all and most of it is not finished at this point.

So, if I were to purchase straight topsoil to fill about 80% of each bed - which I am now thinking of doing - and then added compost to top it off (perhaps a mixture of fish compost, chicken compost, mushroom compost...?) is this more on the right track? Should I be tilling it in? Or just leaving it on top?

Would there be anything else I should consider adding at the beginning of the season in terms of micronutrients?

I really am hoping to have a better year this time around!

It's tough to give definite recommendations under such conditions. The problem is that without seeing or knowing the traits of the soil (texture, fertility, etc) giving advice of what to amend with is going to be haphazard guesses and standbys.

The first thing to do is get at least 2 soil tests. One for the soil from last year's beds, and one from the soil you hope to use for this year's.

It's completely possible that the problems from last year's will have worked themselves out. Fish products are often very high in nitrogen... even too high. The wood chips 'lock up' nitrogen until they are completely broken down. So, among other possible problems, last year's yellowing leaves may have been due (or at least, partially due) to the reactions happening in the compost.

Some soil chemical reactions are actually not too good for plant roots. Salts are given off from reactions, and most garden plants are not fond of salts. Good irrigation and drainage will remove salts, but plants seem to prefer soils that have done most of the interaction. So, that's not to say they won't grow, nor that you won't get a harvest, but you'll usually do better adding materials that have already broken down well. Smaller additions pose little problems, but if your talking 50% of the soil is in flux, then it's basically a laboratory experiment. Soil tests reveal 'available nutrients'. If many reactions are still taking place, then 'availability' is not consistent.

So, get soil tests. Do some of the other tests that reveal soil structure and texture. Kimmq, who posted above. frequently posts a list of tests for density and texture. For detail, look back through his/her posts for those tests. The one that I prefer is a texture test. Take a glob of moist soil and squeeze it tight using one hand. Then poke at it with your finger. If it dents without breaking you are looking at a soil with structure similar to clay. If it disintegrates (or won't come together at all) you are looking at something similar to sand. If the organic pieces are large and preventing you from squeezing (like wood chips) then the soil in not in its final phase of break down and is still undergoing change.

What you want is for the clump to break apart into pieces, but not to fall apart into sand. This just offers an idea of texture, not nutrient value, nor it's reactive condition. If you need to see this test, I'm sure you can find a video on the web.

Also, depending on where you live, you may have a County Agricultural Agent. Take a decent sized soil sample to them and have them look at it. That's where most of us get soil tests anyway. Other options are local universities and colleges. Almost all have at least basic agriculture departments that can take a look.

So, I'm not saying that we can't help, but the combinations of factors and amendments are diverse, and the tests will give you definite starting places instead of guesses and suppositions.

Oh, and keep posting with updates! We all learn and enjoy vicarious gardening along with our own efforts.

ya'll puzzled me
were raised beds not created like hugelbeds, just with solid borders?
kinda like: fill the bottom with whole tree trunks, them limbs, then raw compost, leaves, manure ... only a fairly thin layer of topsoil on the very top?

ya'll puzzled me
what the hey are hugelbeds?

Lol... I too was a bit puzzled. I know about Hügelkultur, but have never tried, nor seen a reason to try it at any of the places I've gardened. The idea is interesting, and who knows, it might be helpful someday. Here's a link to what atl_veggie seems to be describing. Hügelkultur

There are more in depth descriptions around the web, but that Wiki article gives the basics.

atl_veggie, I did not completely understand your comment. Were you asking something of the OP, or of us who have commented? Did you mean to ask about raised beds in general?

The simple soil tests,

1) Soil test for organic
material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole
1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful
of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your
soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
can be bad as well.

5) Life. How many
earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
is not healthy.

By the way, anyone can copy and post these. They are not copyright protected.

kimmq is kimmsr

@rgreen48, my point is/was that I do not understand why the OP or the rest of the gang fill their raised beds with soil and soil only, in my understanding one of the benefits of a raised beds is the slow-release compost pile in the bottom like so
and in turn one of the benefits of the ultra coarse compost material is that you do not need much soil to fill your raised bed/s
downside: your raised beds only work 3 or 4 years before you should redo them

so I do not understand why anyone would fill a raised bed with fish compost & topsoil ONLY unless the only thing you want is more convenient height but not all the benefits of a true raised bed

Thanks, atl... I wasn't sure. I personally grow in beds right in the ground. I have decent soil, so I don't need to bring in anything except lots of organic matter, but I guess some find it convenient. I know, like you say, there are some people that like the extra height, and the comfort it can afford people with difficulties. Others have sand, or hardpan. I've learned to let each decide on their own. But I prefer, and my soil allows, for simple beds raised only from additions of organic matter. I suppose the more options to which people are exposed, and the more experience they gain, the better choices they can make for their own conditions.

rgreen48, did not try to impose anything on anyone
just puzzled about the fact, so simple
I have 'real' raised beds, slightly raised bed frames that keep the soil in place when everything tries to escape downstream to FL, a fair sized hugel that doubles as swale and 'normal' rows, so I guess that qualifies as "exposed to options" ;/

atl... sorry, I didn't mean to say you imposed on anyone. That was bad phrasing on my part.

I appreciate the discussion happening here and am grateful for the pointers.

First, @atl_veggie, may I clarify something? I am a brand-new to gardening. I am trying to avoid making the same mistake I did in my first season last year, hence, why I am here. My assumption (based on what I had read and researched before I built the first bed) was that some people do successfully have a vegetable garden in a soil mix that contains 50% compost. I have read this in a number of threads and other sources. Perhaps I erroneously assumed that having this compost present did not require further amendments as the required nutrients should be present. I'm not sure. Therefore, when the option of this fish compost/topsoil mix was available I thought, hey, that's great, let's go for it. I definitely did not realize the impact that fish products/decomposing wood chips could have.... here I was thinking, compost is compost, right? Clearly not so much...

FWIW, my raised bed (soon to be 3) was built because my small yard has a bit of a slope in the space that receives the most sun. I wish I had more land to have a large in-the-ground garden, but right now, that's not possible.

Anyway, I appreciate the multiple comments regarding soil testing. I will carry out those basic soil tests that you listed, @kimmq and @rgreen48, and report back. @rgreen48, you make a good point about having 50% of the composition of the soil being in flux due to continued decomposition and change... I suppose that is why the desired proportion of organic materials in good garden soil is between between 5-10(ish)% which makes total sense.

I live in Canada so I will have to look into what it costs for a private lab to do an analysis. Depending on the cost I might end up getting a home testing kit and take multiple samples from each bed to determine an average (I know they can be unreliable so hopefully that could mitigate any major discrepancies?). We have had a lot of rain so it is definitely possible that the issues from the first year have been washed away...

I am learning a great deal in these forums and in this thread! There is a lot of knowledge here! I really appreciate you taking the time to write your responses. The more I learn, the more I want to get it right the first (or second!) time :)

alt_veggie, your approach sounds like "Even though there are 100 ways to garden, I do it this particular [traditional but rather obscure and not well known] way, and I am completely mystified why EVERYONE does not do it the same way." News flash, other ways can work well too.

I may have missed something in the thread but I am curious about 'fish compost', particularly its being acidic. The composting process generally brings ingredients towards a neutral product. Of course the way to be sure what you have is to get those soil tests. Same goes for whether to add rock phosphate, etc. You should find out what you have before adding nutrients. Actually if your initial mix was half compost, I would be surprised if anything was severely deficient.

thank you for the flowers, let me hand them back: only because you don't know whatever-you-refer-to need not be "rather obscure and not well known"

you might want to consider reading up on some extention websites, older gardening books or permaculture books *shrugg*

tanya, Yeah, I have no idea how Agricultural Ext. services are offered in Canada. Your Government is usually more helpful than ours, so I'd really be surprised if you didn't have an office, with the testing services, available. I'd call or check in to a local school, college, or university, or local government and ask them. The teachers, or horticulture dept. directors should no doubt know, as well as your local government offices.

I live in Tn. and our County Ext. offers the tests for $7. However, it does cost more in other States. I really can't, in good conscience, recommend those home tests. I would exhaust your efforts on professional labs before spending money on the home tests. Please let me know if your local or (is it?) Provincial Government has provisions for tests, as now I am curious. I'm ignorant to the local Government structures in Canada. Do you have Counties? That's how our Ag. services are delineated.

Edit: Oh, and even though you had difficulties, and did use a lot of the fish compost, that should make for a VERY healthy bed in the long run. I surely wouldn't say using it was a mistake. I just think there's a learning curve on what it looks like finished, and how to use it properly. It's not available here, so I don't have the hands on knowledge to say what are good amounts. A web search should help, but sometimes it's tough to find good info.

On another forum they have taken soil testing and made a science out of finding the right lab. For awhile UMASS was the favorite pick as it was far and away more reliable and repeatable with test after test. More recently in the past few years Logan Labs in Ohio has been the number 1 pick. Their $25 test is all you need. To get that same amount of testing done at the Texas extension labs would cost at least 3x that much and the quality would be poorer, because those extra tests are not a routine test for them. Then if you want help understanding what to do, you can go to the Gardenweb Lawn Care forum and post the results. Someone will be along to read them for you. Morpheuspa is especially good at that. He'll tell you what products to use, when, how much, how often, how to apply, and where to get them. Go take a look at that forum to get an idea of what to expect.

Just an educated guess from someone who had the same problem last year:

Almost certainly your mix was too "green". That is, your wood chips used too much of the available N while decomposing. It will probably be better this year.

I don't know what a soil test would tell you. PH is important, but it's easier and cheaper to use a color matching test you can get from a hydroponic store or a pool supply store. It's highly unlikely that such a growing medium would be significantly deficient in either trace elements or P-K. N is a definite possibility but N is so fugitive that getting a worthwhile reading from your test is pointless and that's your most likely culprit.

Dave, someone living in Canada would not be able to utilize the soil test lab at
UMASS since shipping soil samples across international borders is quite complicated and costly. It is unfortunate that AgCanada does not do soil testing. There are, however, numerous soil testing labs in Canada.

kimmq is kimmsr

@alt_veggie: The issue was not whether I know what hugelkultur is, and yes I do know what it is. I was just trying to suggest that you'll get more converts if your case can be a little less, what's the word...zealous. No offense meant.

If you could get the fish compost and know that it has a lot of larger wood chips and nitrogen, you could certainly get it and let it sit and compost some more.

I don't know if there is necessarily a must-have in some kind of ratio, as much as it is about the soil network and making things right when you detect a deficiency. What I mean by that is you can start out with some right things, but you may still need to do more as the growing season goes. Some plants will also need more of one thing than another. It's not just something done at the beginning of the season before plants grow and then you're done.

"get more converts" ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Yes, you seemed to think everyone should do it that way and are puzzled that they don't.

sorry to disappoint you, I am too selfish to care about that, all I am trying to do is find a reason for doing it differently, if someone does it the way they do, they have a reason for doing so - at least I hope they do - maybe they knew something or thought about something I did not, and I can not seem to find a reason to fill raised beds with soil and mature compost only, especially if you have to buy the stuff