Okay, it's not growing so fast now -- I moved it from indoors under lights, to out in the cold over a month ago -- but the possibility of taking a cutting shouldn't be too far off. And you're right, it could still have that sort of vigor and be tetraploid. As it gets older, I hope for more clues. Of planned crosses with Saint Nicholas, 11 are now little plants, having survived infancy without sickness. I used mixed pollens, so I can't tell which are which yet, except for the mossy-looking ones (Salet, or *maybe* Chapeau de Napoleon). Most of the others look varying degrees of Damask, and most are probably from Pickering FS, but some may have to bloom before I can be sure which pollens took. There are also at least 5 Autumn Damask seedlings which look like they'll make it, and so much OP Single Musk that the culling process is ongoing. About thirty OP Grandma's Hat also germinated, but over 90% were sickly and/or misshapen. I don't know whether they're sickly because GH selfs badly, or whether GH makes sick babies regardless of the pollen used, but its promising start has definitely tarnished. One seedling of Tuscany Superb looks like it will make it. About thirty plants, all told. Others mostly haven't felt like germinating yet, if at all. No thanks to the squirrels, my dinky Saint Nicholas pretty much saved the year. I wish I had more of it! Since none of those seedlings can be expected to bloom this year, I'm now planning a bunch more F1s. And I have to say, the closer spring gets, the more I'm tempted to try an alternative direction, which I think aligns with yours. Although I absolutely will keep working on Damask Perpetuals, I realize that the odds of getting one to rebloom are low, and that even having a fine seed parent for them, might not be enough to make future breeders want to risk trying it. Chinensis rebloom is just SO much more within reach. So this year I'm hedging my bet, and will also try my hand at (gasp!) Hybrid Perpetuals. Breeders will include, to be sure, Alfred Colomb, Ardoisee de Lyon, "Barbara's Pasture Rose," Eugene de Beauharnais, Gloire des Rosomanes, Jacques Cartier, Reine des Violettes, Rose du Roi (of commerce), Salet (again), and Sydonie. It *may* include too modern Hugh Dickson, too sickly La Reine, or too sterile "Glendora." The basic idea will be the same -- boost female fertility in old roses -- but I would want to keep up the outcross-backcross process indefinitely, with the goal of bringing successive generations closer to the ancient European classes, and farther away from HPs. Early on, they might still be useful for breeding Bourbons, HPs, Austin types, or species crosses. So expect the next batch to include things like: Saint Nicholas x Reine des Violettes Gloire des Rosomanes x Saint Nicholas Tuscany Superb x Alfred Colomb Hebe's Lip x Jacques Cartier (When looking for some other information, I came across and re-read a Paul Barden blog from 10 years ago, in which he wished for something virtually identical to Indigo, which had just enough chinensis in it to ease the breeding of (at least slightly) remontant offspring. Although he intended to try it using Modern Shrubs and a different breeding methodology, the basic idea is the same. I'm using old roses for that job in an effort to restrict how modern descendants can look and smell, since glossy foliage and some other modern traits are dominant. While either approach could work, I'm hoping mine will quickly produce some useful results, since I don't feel quite young enough to try Paul's method for this particular job, and don't have the acreage to rush it.) Last year's Damask Perpetuals will be going on as before -- Pickering, Pink Leda, Autumn Damask, Duchess of Portland -- with Indigo and another Pickering plant joining the effort. Hebe's Lip will be getting a lot of pollen, as I suspect it's where SN got its female fertility from. Every year I try a few long shots, using tiny amounts of pollen from functionally sterile roses on my best seed parents, and will continue doing so. (Though it's way too early to be sure, one of my SN seedlings looks like it could be from Duchesse de Rohan pollen I put on it; it has foliage as oval as any of my Autumn Damask seedlings, but far less thorns. After years of failing with roses like that, this gives me hope!) My Single Musk is much happier lately, so it can expect a bunch of pollens, mainly directed at the moschata x gallica needed for a Damask do-over. If you like, I'll put some Gloire des Rosomanes pollen on it too, and send you any hips which result. If there's anything you'd love to see tried with things which I grow, and I've mentioned no intention of doing such crosses, let me know. Some of my roses, like Gloire des Rosomanes, will have a lot more flowers than I will have plans for.

And using binomial nomeclature is the ONLY way to be certain two people are, indeed, talking about the same plant!

Here's a few shots from my collection. Everyone is familiar with the Delft blue and white, I'm sure. Here are two good examples. There are from about the same period, late 17th/early 18th century: This tile is the oldest in my collection, dated to right about 1580. It has had some major repair work (but so has Joan Rivers). It's still a fairly valuable piece due to scarcity: This is a very nice polychrome tile from 1600-1630: The Dutch got beautifully creative during the art nouveau/art deco periods. And here's a nice example of a Porceleyne Fles tile. I've never had it dated, but I'm guessing turn of the 19th century: I'm no great authority on these tiles (I know just enough to be a danger to my savings account when I spelunk on e-bay). But they really are fun to collect and study. Hope you enjoyed. Steven

No, no saving, I did try adding yeast at the end - no luck. I've been having the worst time in the kitchen lately, I must be too distracted lately or something. I made some more this morning and though "perfect" what wasn't perfect - my oven temp, I had it 25 degrees too hot. I thought I remembered the temp from last time I made them until I pulled them out the oven, one pan burned and the other just overcooked. Sigh.