Thanks Frankie, I didn't see the "Name that Plant" section until you mentioned it. I will definitely post some pictures there and if all else fails contact the co-operative.

We have a separate section of the garden for edible plants, but I also have no issue with blueberry or fig plants on the hill. Mainly we want plants that would be self sustaining and require minimal continued care. I don't have a problem trimming once a year and doing minimal amounts of work though.

The left half of the hill gets sun from 10am to 5pm in the summer, and the right half gets sun from 10am until sunset. The hill faces west with the forest blocking the sun in the morning, and the house blocking half of the hill in the evening.

To make this look good, all you need is a single groundcover upholstering the whole area. To add more interest (as you've expressed in your sample photos) you can subdivide the area into a variety of "groundcovers." This is a balancing act. Add too many, and the area may become jumbled or disheveled looking and be more difficult to care for. As I see it, since there is a nice looking wooded area for a backdrop, it would be useful to use the area in question as a foreground for this view. A main objective in that case would be to NOT place plants in the area that obstruct the background view. It would be useful to place plants of greater height toward the left and right, adjacent to the existing evergreen clusters, as a height-transitional zone. I've mapped out a scheme of how you might do this. The scheme only illustrates heights and is only a general guide to an idea. It's not a planting plan per se. The areas could be further subdivided to add more plant varieties, if that's your objective. You would still need to maintain overall order to avoid a disheveled look. The scheme is relative. You could add or reduce height to the overall area. Or you could make taller areas even taller, providing a greater range of plant heights.

Personally, I do not care for walls that descend with a "saw-tooth" finish (descending in levels looks better.) The easiest fix is to plant something low growing that trails, which would cover the upper edge and smooth it out.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read through my lengthy post and sending back your well thought out feedback. We really appreciate it.

Yes, in the summer the forest really comes alive. We do have a neighbor further up the hill that we have been wanting to get a little winter screening from, which I think is why I was originally considering screening with some evergreens. However, I see some logic in your plan.

We love the idea of hydrangeas, and have attempted to start one bush so far, but it wasn't happy where we put it. I'll have

In general though, I think you're right that we need to simplify. Its a hodgepodge right now mainly due to the prior landscaper, and partly of our own doing. So far we've had the 'weekend gardener' syndrome where we didn't have an overall plan to work towards. Your layout is a nice step in the right direction with the beginning of a cohesive attack plan.

In order to respond to the need for winter screening from uphill neighbor, you would need to illustrate this with a picture.

Hey yardvaark, you're right, its hard to fully understand the landscape without the appropriate pictures.

In retrospect, it may be nearly impossible to screen the neighbors in the winter without totally obscuring the woods. In summer, there is enough undergrowth that the house is practically invisible.

Would love any other thoughts. Thanks yardvaark and anyone else that may have any input.

The solution one makes depends on where the lot line is. Hopefully it is nearer to them and farther from you. My preference would be to screen as near the lot line as possible. It may be tricky to find a shrubby, woody plant that will tolerate the shade. First thing I would do is observe similar nearby areas and see what might be growing in them that would work for you. Another idea that occurs to me is to create a suspended trellis using existing trees as the primary supports, and grow Virginia creeper on it. VC grows everywhere and tolerates the shade. This would involve running medium duty chain, swag style, from tree to tree (to eye hooks) and drop vertical cords (@ 24" intervals) from the chain to corresponding stakes in the ground. VC will grow to the top and fill in.

So it sounds like you think it could be done, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the landscape area that we're focusing on now. A hanging VA creeper shield is an interesting idea. I'd be a bit afraid that it would strangle the pines over the long term. I guess for now it makes sense to fix the closest (and year round) eyesore, and then later attempt to address the privacy.

Any other thoughts are welcome. Thanks again Yardvaark.

Hi James,

Your local garden center will have all the best cold-hardy perennials and ornamental grasses for your 6A Virginia climate. You can't go wrong with Switchgrass (Panicum virgatum) in mass. To attract butterflies, grow Butterfly Weed (Asclepias tuberosa) and Purple Coneflower (Echinacea).

I love your evergreen trees. They look great. You can always move perennials if the spacing gets tight in a few years.

Good luck!

Thanks so much Mr. Guide. We do have a few local garden centers that we have visited fairly frequently in the past. But we never had a cohesive plan of attack. We would simply add a plant here and there based on nothing more than what looked good at the time. I will certainly ask them about your suggested plants in addition to checking out their local offerings.

My wife and I are a bit nervous about moving some of our established plants, as we haven't had the best luck at getting some of our other garden additions to be really happy once planted. I imagine a lot of success in moving a plant depends on how much dirt you bring with it.

Yes, James, roots and soil are important for transplant.

Timing is most critical. Google search when to transplant a certain type of plant. Most are fine to transplant when Winter dormant or the beginning of Spring. Perennials are easier than evergreen trees to transplant, no doubt about that.

Yes, JD, the screening does not need to be in the vicinity of the area currently in question. As long as you have a view you like, there is no reason to stop it shorter than you must. Usually, having depth within the field of view is a good thing, so usually screening, if needed, is more often done near the property lines.

While Virginia creeper could cover small trees, I don't know it to smother the tops of large trees. It seems to co-exist with trees, surviving in their shade. It's a common native plant that seems to grow nearly anywhere and everywhere. Also, it's an example and I'm sure there there are other plants that would work, but you'd need to do some research to learn what they are.

I may have missed something in the preceding posts about the natural rocks and fountain. From the photos I see a serious conflict between Nature (the randomly placed rocks leading toward your patio) and the walls that Nature appears to blast through and suddenly end. To achieve a cohesive design, it seems to me (total amateur) that you should make a choice between Nature and Formal patio. One is crashing into the other in a dismayingly unresolved progression.

Your place has so much going for it that it would be a shame to leave the avalanche of rocks as they are, looking so unfinished. I strongly suggest working out a more formal ending pool for the stream. Either that, or deconstructing the unnatural retaining wall and rebuilding with a more natural design. Something's gotta give... I would love to see how the story ends. Please update with photos.

Hey kiminpl, I appreciate your thoughts. I see what you're talking about in the photos, the natural rocks appear to be blasting through the retaining wall. Some of your thoughts may only be applicable due to it being winter. In summer, we will often embed a few pots of fountain grass into the rock pond area. I think that really helps to blend the area together and look much more natural. In fact, the addition of any vegetation around the rock bed really helps blend it all together. So far we've just been challenged to get anything to live more than a season. But I think that's been mainly due to poor plant choices.

Gardens should be cultivated and neat close to home and progressively more open with drifts and rock outcroppings. I noticed the rocky waterfall area also.

A very good reference to use regarding plantings is this invasive list from the Arboretum of Virginia. Introducing Virginia Creeper would be a mistake.http://www.virginia.edu/blandy/blandy_web/arboretum/virginia_invasive_plants.pdf

I didn't want to mention the rock slide that crashed through the wall if it wasn't already bothering the homeowner's. Sometimes people don't want to have their attention drawn to something that's expensive to fix, if they're otherwise accepting of it. Since it came up, I'll not disagree with kiminpl's comments about the two elements being radically out of sync. I think the problem lies entirely with the rock fountain. We notice that the rocks are of relatively uniform, small size. In nature we would see some boulders in the mix. Also, the chute is straight, like a manufactured object. At the termination point, the stacking of stones is not at all like nature would do it, stable and in equilibrium. Instead, some stones are stacked vertically so an accidental bump could send them tumbling. That the "stream" has a given width at its base, but where it penetrates the wall it is only half that width, which looks unnatural. The pool at the base should be wider -- probably considerably wider -- than the stream, if it is to look natural. And It seems that replicating/simulating nature is the whole point.

Looking at an example of a natural stream (or a good fake stream!) a quasi-alternating arrangement of boulders occurs more or less along the sides (encircled in yellow.) The boulders are "helped" by large, dome-shaped plant masses (encircled in orange) furthering the random, alternating arrangement. One might think of their arrangement as how a steel ball might travel a pinball course (red line.) In some cases these boulders extend, separate and outside of the stream, adding depth and drama to the scene. In the case of the property in question, no boulders to speak of exist at all! I would be tempted to mortar some stones together, making simulated boulders. (To be sure, though, it would require someone with an artistic sense to do this and massage the existing contents into a more natural arrangement.) Consolidating stones into larger masses could help to create more of a meandering effect. (It looks like the actual path of water flow might be curved.) It could also help to narrow the overall stream so that it fits better with the wall opening. It's going to be nearly impossible for me to describe in a concise way how the stream should meet the wall, but I think this portion needs a complete redesign. While the largest "boulders" might begin to penetrate the wall, I don't think all the "gravel" looks good spilling out and filling the pool. It should be more pool and less stream bed on the patio side of the wall. Given that the "pool" probably needs to be filled with gravel, it might be a smaller, different colored (dark) stone that simulates the effect of water. Don't know if this will help. Usually, creating these things like this are not for people working it out as they go. It generally takes someone with experience.

In defense of my earlier vine screen suggestion. Sometimes, difficult circumstances call for out-of-the-box solutions. It's a matter of evaluating the possibilities and doing what works best and is most practical. I don't have the phobia about some of the plants that many people call invasive and find that working with some of the vines are not that difficult. But it is up to each to evaluate this for himself. To be sure, if a plant arrived here a long time ago and invaded, it is probably considered a "native" and now revered for this status. If it arrived anytime in the last 200 years and is the least rambunctious, it is probably abhorred by many. As a native, I don't think there's anywhere Virginia creeper doesn't already grow in the eastern US. I've lived near or with it before and did not find it to be unmanageable, though it is vigorous. I guess one must decide what their fear level is.

You guys won't hurt my feelings. I appreciate the input.

The funny thing is that when we bought the house, the fountain was as straight as it could be without any strewn rocks at all. That was one of the first things I attempted to do, by mixing up the rocks a bit and creating a bit of randomness, but I agree - I don't think I did it enough. At the time it was a huge improvement. I'd like to try not to tear out the existing concrete base, but I agree that it needs more "nature". I think that the forthcoming greenery will also be a huge help.

I'm not big on modifying the fountain basin structure much at this stage, but that could become a long term goal. The rock stacking on the basin was done to reduce splashing where the main stream met the rock bed. Before stair-stepping it, the splash zone was quite large.

Nobody TRYING to hurt feelings but sometimes it seems that way.

Good luck on whatever you do with the water feature.

Well, I figured I'd circle back... its been a long summer with a lot of work going into this hill area. Our budget was $3k, and we ended up spending about $3.6k, not too over budget.

We learned a lot through this process... its not complete, for sure, but its 1000% better in our minds. We're done for this year. Next year we may add a few more plants here and there.

We're still struggling with keeping some purple salvia alive on the hill. If anyone has advice on that, please chime in. (Maybe I should make a new thread for that.)

This is the area directly behind the house:

The area to the right, behind the house:

Looking up from the driveway at the same area as above:

Panorama of the whole space:

Thanks for all of your help guys. Let me know what you think!

Wow oh wow! That looks great now! Well done! I don't check in here often, but I certainly am glad I did today.

We have a nightmare hill in our backyard and here we also have marine clay. My dream is to fix our landscaping to make our hill stable and pretty (that has been the idea for 18 years now-sheesh). I may retire this spring, so that may be the time to start working on ours. Just giving all of you a heads up! haha.

Jim, I'm curious ... what took the largest part of the budget?

It looks much better having plants in it. Much better than faded mulch. Congratulation.

We probably could have stayed under budget if we had done the mulching ourselves. We just ran out of time in the summer (plus, the hill would have made it a mighty difficult challenge to tackle), so we hired a crew. Their labor was the variable that wasn't taken into account originally. The largest chunk of the budget was just buying plants... so.. many.. plants.. When you sink that much money into plants, its frustrating when some of them die. There's a definite learning curve to finding the right spot for the right plants.

Congratulations, that was a big undertaking. I hope you will remember to update in a year or so. It looks very natural, which is good.

Nice job! Re the salvia, track down the very recent thread on salvias in the perennial forum - i think it was called salvia for shade? I struggle with salvias also and learned how different the varieties are and which conditions each needs. My suggestion for you now is to remove the small boulders you are using to edge the lawn and just make a trench edge. The stones add yet another stone distraction when I think it was agreed that the longterm goal should be simplifying/merging/integrating the stone wall and stone stream. To me, that means separating the natural stone elements from the formal ones (staircase, pavers, wall). Don't be discouraged by the loss of plants. The survivors are sure to grow, spread and multiply until you have a new problem:)