Happy birthday, loonlake! May you enjoy at least another 58 years! :-D

After I posted I realized that I probably didn't explain it too well. I had no problem with the woman being fit. From behind she was wearing in style clothing, youthful hair that came a bit below her shoulders, so I just assumed she was a good 10-20 years younger than myself. It's when she turned around that shocked me.

I posted this video a few months ago when we were talking about age appropriate dress, but no one commented. This explains exactly how I feel.

A little R rated, but not bad.

This morning I saw a FB photo that my cousin posted of her little girl. The children were supposed to dress up as if they were 100 years old today for a project. Mom powdered her hair and twisted it into a, loose bun. Added a long cable knit cardigan and a string of pearls (gasp). She looked like me (47).

Linelle, I agree. I've lived my years and I own them. I have no issue with revealing my age!

At some point, about most things in life, you have to decide " I don't care what other people think". It's very helpful.

Actually, I wonder (not worry) more about people calling something "dated", rather than if they call it "old ladyish". No, I'd never use either term. Well, for me, "dated" means my own current kitchen where there is no sufficient number of electrical outlets for the appliances I have. That's not remotely equivalent.

Otherwise, "dated" and "oldlady-ish" seems to mean something retro but not quite ready enough to be termed acceptably "vintage" by the "trendy".

Design what you like, and what works for YOU. Advice is good for function, but form works best if up to you.

I strongly disagree that there's any "kernel of truth" to the blanket statements "blacks can dance" and "Jews are smart." IMO people use the phrase a "kernel of truth" because they suppose it to somehow be less of a stereotype than saying something is true, when looked at logically they've said it already.

How about this: "old people are old," or "young people are young." I am well and truly sick of people saying you're as young as you feel, 60 is the new 40, age is a state of mind, and all the other things thought up by older people to keep from being marginalized. And yet just saying those things is self-marginalizing, as it is tantamount to admitting younger is better!

I don't agree that younger is better, and I think people should own their age and not apologize for it with those ridiculous sayings.

She looked nice & very fit. But when she turned around she was decades older with a lot of wrinkles which blew my mind, and not in a good way.

I don't want to be that woman. lol

So you'd rather be out of shape because it matches your face?

I'm a proud 73 year 'old' with a young attitute, and have been asked repeadedly if my 53 yo dd is my sister. I used to think it was because *she* looks so young, but now i've come to realize i'm not the average 'old lady' or what is perceived as an old lady. I'm still 'blonde-ish', with hair that would probably be considered 'too long' for someone 'my age'. I also wear make up, stylish clothes(sometimes fitted in the 'right places'!), sing out loud, dance, love junk jewelry, can tell a raunchy joke, look at *younger* men(and admit that's my preference!), and really enjoy life more than I did in my 30's! And yes, I Do *own* my age, every minute of it. Young is definitely overated. I know from first hand experience, and it 'don't get no better than this!' ;)

Terriks, did you read where I had no problem with her being fit? It was the overall look from behind. Very youthful. Watch the video above and you'll see what I'm talking about, except she wasn't in short shorts. :) What happened to tact here?

kswl, no one said any of that.

People say those things on threads here all the time, Tibb. Mtnrdredux made that generalization about blacks and Jews. You can't stereotype a "kernel"; either you have or haven't. It's like being a little pregnant :-)

Patty, even your remarks about owning your age are wrapped up with how much younger people perceive you to be, as though younger must be----is, inevitably-----better than one's actual age. This is how insidious the age bias is in our everyday expressions. People don't like the phrase "old lady decorating" and yet everyone still repeats the old saw "you're as young as you feel." I am merely pointing out that inconsistency. It seems to have a stranglehold in our speech and popular culture.

kswl, that comment was in response to my saying that comedians will tell you that what makes things funny is when there is a kernel of truth in there. men's examples were not good examples of what I'd said because she chose examples of stereotyping that involves isms, i.e.: anti-Semitism and racism. (Btw, I have never seen anyone say anything like that here, ever. Doesn't mean it hasn't been said, but I've never seen it, and I'm in Hot Topics a lot!).

The problem is that you then ran with those examples, furthering the straying from what I'd said as if I'd said those things as examples of "kernels of truth". I did not, and to imply such a thing was reckless on your part.

I clearly stated that there are ugly, negative stereotypes that are never acceptable, and mtn. promptly used two but out of context. To say there are no stereotypes is to be intellectually dishonest. Culture inherently creates them,a nd culture is a good thing. Comedians, for example, then use hyperbole to caricature those things, and it is often very, very funny, esp. if one can laugh at oneself (which granted, many cannot do).

Not all stereotypes are the same. When they are used to put down or suggest another person or group is inferior because of that "difference", then they are ignorant and more likely and ism.

But my biggest objection to your comment was that it suggested that I had used those two ugly things as examples of "acceptable" stereotyping, and I did and do not. But to suggest that very good humor is very often based on stereotypes and "kernels of truth" is just not honest. There absolutely are kernels of truth in many things. Otherwise, everything would be either 100% true, no humor, no art, no poetry....or 100% false. And we know that is not the case.

kswl

"old people are old," or "young people are young."

This is true chronologically. However, these are also true:

you're as young as you feel and age is a state of mind

If you haven't seen the studies Langer has done on aging and self perception, you might find them interesting. There is apparently a significant part of our age that is malleable and defined by our own perceptions, expectations and culture.

And I've already explained how 60 is the new 40 when looking at life expectancy.

As I said before that young isn't necessarily better than old, but different. But good health and feeling well is definitely better than ill health and feeling poorly, and it is the latter that typically occurs more frequently as we age. However, not experiencing aging and illness and death is not an option.

Culture inherently creates them [stereotypes]

Actually I thought it was the smallness of our minds that created stereotypes. I mean that literally, though clearly it can apply figuratively as well. In order for the brain to capture and make use of all the information it receives, it categorizes information it deems valuable, ignores a lot and then looks for patterns that match existing information to reinforce it. It takes awareness, effort and learning to reject existing patterns in favor of new ones.

Stereotypes need not be negative. If you look at a tree with awareness and don't attach the label "tree" to it, you can see it in greater detail. As soon as you label it "tree" your perception of it changes. It's just part of being human.

Categorical labeling is a tool that humans use to resolve the impossible complexity of the environments we grapple to perceive.

Tibbrix, none of my comments was made in reference to anything you said. In fact, i didnt read your comments.

Annie, I am well aware of your explanation of the moving target of life expectancy. I am not disputing it---it's obvious.

We need to get past having to explain or apologize for age or deny the stereotypes by using them. Sixty is sixty. The functionality of sixty may change but the number is real. The sixty year old may look or feel like a forty year old or may have the same number of years left that a forty year old used to. But that 60 year old is still 60, and has the emotional depth and fund of knowledge of a person who has lived those years. We marginalize people when we try to reframe their age to a younger number, for whatever reason. In my opinion!

kswl, is it that people try to minimize their fund of knowledge by reframing their age? I don't think so. I think it's just about looking younger, given the strong correlation between aging and ill health vs. youth and vigor; being mentally sharp and up to date, vs. being mentally ossified and unaware. I was working with a fellow yesterday on kitchen design, who is running the family electrical and remodeling business, and he was using the CAD system to layout the kitchen no problem. It did come up in the conversation that he is now 81 years old. That's impressive. I also appreciated his referring to me as young lady!

I think a lot of the reason the young look down on the old (remember the days of never trust anyone over 30?) is, subliminally, they want to be able to blame the old for getting that way, so it gives them an avenue to think they have some control so "that won't happen to me!" Of course the reality is otherwise.

People may have lots of negative stereotypes about the word "old" but that is their problem. I have always tried not to make other people's problems my problem. I am old and find it to be just a statement describing the passing of time. However, I guess it is good that I "look lots younger" (or so I've been told), since age discrimination in the workplace is realer than real. There's no one way to be "old" just as there is no one way to be a human. But for myself and most of my "old" friends, the stereotype that we are inflexible, weak or sickly, stick-in-the-muds, not able to update our minds or skills, dismissive of new ideas, out of touch, etc., etc. is inaccurate and hurtful. Speaking for myself, I am MORE open to new ideas now, since I am bored with the old ones and also I realize that I don't have as much of my life left as I used to, so "times a wastin."

I go to the oldsters for creative, energetic ideas. The youngsters these days that I work with seem to be very conservative and kind of afraid to take chances and pessimistic. I know this is a stereotype too, but I work at a college and see them every day, so I do get that sense, and I'm not the only one. Uncertain economic times heighten this mindset, and for good reason!

Wow peeps! We can still discuss and be civil to each other at the same time.

Annie - you have a study for everything! LOL

Oakley - You said "I don't want to be that woman", I think Terri may have may be wondering why?

Artemis - you win the prize for the best term I could have used in place of "old ladyish" - dated. I'll try to remember that in the future!!

I was just watching Project Runway All Stars and they used the term "old lady" and they also talk a lot about "young" and "fresh". But I was thinking, as an alternative to "old lady", how's "matronly"? Though for me that always connotes someone with an large and low bosom, like Aunt Bea, or a lot of those women I grew up with from Eastern Europe whose bust line seemed to blend into the waistline in a single, solid block.

i do dye my hair, and can't imagine a point yet when i won't, but i have also been highlighting and dyeing my hair for yrs even before i began to turn gray...

but, i think i will be reluctant to ever have any surgery or injections in attempts to make myself look younger than i am because i do think it's kind of sad that youthful looks are so celebrated and aging not so much... i am, at least at this point, planning to choose not to have surgical or injectable procedures done on myself... i do plan to get new knees tho should i ever need them!!

to me, matronly describes body type more than age... like the large, sagging breasts and a thick waist, etc...

i do think that age becomes hard to guess as we age because there is so much variation in how we age, genetically, as well as all of the procedures that people have done. pattycakes, i would guess that a lot of women who have had their children young, as you did, probably hear that a lot at a certain age- it's probably not as prevalent for women who have had their kids between 30-40! i am sure you look great, tho!

reluctant to ever have any surgery or injections in attempts to make myself look younger than i am

As one who enjoys all things fashion/beauty/fitness related, I question whether looking younger is always/often the goal of surgery, injections, laser, etc. For me it's simply been a matter of wanting to look my best at whatever age I am. And I believe this also is the goal of any good physician who does surgery, injectables, etc.

idk, it seems to me that if the goal of the surgery or injections is to eliminate wrinkles and sagging and/or to add youthful fullness and tautness to areas that have lost it, etc, that your definition of looking your best = looking younger ...

i don't think i know anyone who has had work done who would have been satisfied if the results of the surgery actually made them look better but older... and, i know i don't always think the procedures always make the person look 'their best'... sometimes i have thought a friend looked better (to my eye at least) before the surgery or injection (esp of the lips)!

i know i dye my hair so that i look younger- i guess can call it 'looking my best' because i don't think i would like the way i look with gray hair-- at my age!!

I AM that lady! I am 65 and have plenty of wrinkles. Last year my cousin could not find me in a crowd because until I turned around he said he thought I was a 25 year old. That was not a problem for me! I just happened to be wearing jeans and a t-shirt. My DDs say that they will disown me if I ever wear anything from Alfred Dunner....:)

Sunday I attended the symphony and was astounded (and comforted) to see how many women are wearing their hair gray. It was a good cross-section of where I live, but gray ruled supreme!!

I cannot wait to go grey! My dad never did except for his sideburns. I am almost 64 and have just recently noticed three (yes, I counted) grey hairs in the front. I also might be mistaken for younger from behind. Don't care one way or the other. I am in pretty good shape, heavier than 10 years ago, but still thinner than most, and dress more for comfort than anything since I am a teacher, but being around all those young teachers may help me avoid too much "old lady" clothing. I am now going to look up Alfred Dunner!

Alfred Dunner! LOL! Just the other day I was trying to conjure up names of clothing lines with a "certain look", and Alfred Dunner is exactly what I was searching for!

I always feel so sorry for the models that have to wear unstylish clothes. It's like "I really wanted to be a model, and this is the only gig I could get". I notice that a lot of times online they show clothes with headless models or computer-generated models.

The problem with this outfit is not that is it "old ladyish"; it is juvenile. It looks like onesie couture.

The thing is that Alfred Dunner shirt would be cuter without that sailboat on it.

I refuse to wear horizontal stripes, and that sailboat top adds insult to injury by looking really boxy. I might be willing to wear this piece (by Seasalt) though, if I were in the mood to look all nautical and jaunty. At least it's somewhat fitted.

cyn, almost 64 and only 3 gray hairs? That was me, only at 19. Three hairs aren't even a novelty, more like kleenex lint.

The trouble with going gray is it isn't always a great look until you're 50%, unless you're lucky enough to have very dark hair. As my dark chestnut hair was turning gray, it just looked sad and faded. Then one day it became silver and people started complimenting me on it, not usually people who color their hair, because going gray scares them.

Also, going gray totally messes with the colors you can wear. I used to be able to wear any color, now I'm stuck with red and black.

Jen, I actually like that top, in fact, I wore one similar to it yesterday as it was about 85 degrees here. I'm small, so I can get away with horizontal stripes.

imo, it's not really even the sailboat or red and white stripes that makes the look 'unstylish'-- it's the outlined and square neckline, the wide and longish short sleeves, the buttons on the shoulders, along with the sailboat and red stripes!!

Well, ok, Linelle. Like I said, it is one of the better pieces I found. ;-D

This, however, isn't going to flatter a soul.

Jen, is that currently being sold?

It's being sold online at what looks to be a resale boutique. If you really want to punish your eyes, Google "Alfred Dunner spring jacket." Ouch.

By the way, these pieces remind me very much of things my beloved Grannie wore in her later years. I adored that woman, so poking fun at these things is a little bit of a double-edged sword for me. I think they're ugly as homemade sin, but on my Grannie? She always looked like an angel to me.

I actually love a lot of what could be called "old ladyish" style - e.g. floral muumuus, big florals, horizontal stripes, velour tracksuits. If I had ever been skinny and more into fashion for sure I would have gone bigtime into librarian/vintage chic. The best part of blogs like Advanced Style is that I think older women (and men) can get to a whole new level of self-expression and DNGAF (do not give a fudge) that I find super refreshing. Especially after about 80...I know a relatively large amount of nonagenarians and to a one they could not care less about what's in or out (but they do proudly call themselves old ladies!)

http://advancedstyle.blogspot.ca/

Now I need to track down the documentary..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWKTfqivbRQ 

"Up til 80 you always lie, after 80 you usually brag."

When it comes to clothing for that "certain look", let's not forget about Blair.

I've never heard of Blair, but heck, I'd wear their "sassy twinset!"

This thread is starting to sound like a bunch of mean girls poking fun at all the "geeky" girls in high school. Please post pictures of yourselves today so the rest of us can make comments - good or bad.

Don't know when my mom started buying things from Blair, but I'm guessing her 70s. When she died at 91, I took a fleece jacket that came from there. It's not something I would have bought for myself, but I'm not embarrassed to wear it.

Loonlake, there are some geeky clothes out there. Were that not true, terms like "mom jeans" or "ugly holiday sweaters" wouldn't be widely understood. It's nothing to take personally. It's certainly not meant to be about you or any other PERSON. It's about articles of clothing and their stylings (or lack thereof).

There's "librarian chic??!!" That definitely described my late mom. She was chic and she was a librarian. Shirley Jones didn't have nothin' on her!

Never heard of Blair, but what I clicked on look like baby clothes again.

Love it or hate it, it is noteworthy that clothing aimed at certain demographics ...with more life experience... really does have a lot in common with infantile clothing. Pastels or brights, lots of patterns and or graphics. I guess it's because both are viewed as non-sexual.

Well there is a lot that babies and the antique have in common...no hair, no teeth, wear diapers... :)

Talk about adults dressing like babies, did you see Dencia at the Grammys? Including the sequined drop drawers? Ridiculous.

Loonlake, just for you, here's me on the way to the library today.

Actually, after my Mom died (age 81), I went through her closets and took a bunch of her clothes. It was fortunate we were the same size. I was still working at the time and whenever I wore her stuff, I got compliments...when I wore my own, silence. What can I say? She was hipper than I! Of course, she got carded when she went to apply for the golden age pass in bowling...you had to be 80 to get it and they didn't believe she was!

Cindymac, the colors in the jacket are pretty. I think what would make the difference between "blair" or "alfred dunner" and not is the presence/lack of a waistline. If it were mine, I'd probably take in the side seams in some way in the waist area to give me a little more shape. Here are some before and after tailoring for men...same applies for women.

Vermont Country Store is another place to find styles untouched by time.

Annie, funny you say that about your mom's clothes. My mom's closet is full of infinitely more stylish pieces than I own. When I want to dress up for a special occasion, I raid her closet. Mine pales in ccomparison.

Annie, I wear it for walks and the occasional trip to the grocery store. It's fine as is for that.

Annie, can't believe you wore that dress, again. You already wore it out to lunch with me. It's getting old. Give it a rest.

cindymac, I think it would be really pleasant to wear a sweater of someone after they are gone. In college I had a glorious camel color cashmere swing coat that had been my grandmother's.

Cindy and Mtn Rd

:)