LA Times Article - Too poor to retire and too young to die

User

10 years ago

A very sobering and sad article. Lots of older people in the same boat and many more heading there in the coming years.

LA Times - Too poor to retire and too young to die

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Embothrium

10 years ago

last modified: 10 years ago

A relative that used to work in real estate ended up in later years with most of her business being elderly people who - due to medical expenses etc. - were forced to sell the houses they had planned to die in.

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Comments (68)

sleeperblues
10 years ago
I wouldn't be so quick at equating job success as luck, AG. Because someone has not gotten laid off or fired or whatever you want to call it doesn't mean they are lucky, it may mean that they have worked hard and are an asset to their company and not a detriment.

I do feel bad for the lady in the article, but as others have said her lack of money management skills have brought her to the place she is now. I can guarantee that 50,000.00 credit card debt will continue to rise just from the unpaid interest. I am amazed that she had her credit limit raised by 1000.00. It will be an upaid debt that is laid on the shoulders of the consumers who DO pay their bills.
arkansas girl
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I'm talking about lay offs, not people being fired because they sucked at their jobs. Tell that to the thousands that lost their high paying manufacturing jobs up here in Ohio! UGH! As I was saying "lack of empathy"! OH yeah, they must have been lackeys because they got laid off. Whatever! OH yeah and how about all the manufacturers that closed up shop and moved to China or Mexico and all those high paying jobs were lost. I guess that's because the employees weren't hard working enough?
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sleeperblues
10 years ago
Yeah, you can just let life suck you down or you can get over it. I have plenty of acquaintances and family members who lost their jobs in manufacturing, but they worked hard to find new jobs or even new careers. There are many people, both women and men, who lost their jobs mid-career and went back to school to become nurses. There is always a way if you try hard enough, but sadly too many people choose not to try. That's a whole other discussion. You say I have a lack of empathy, but I say I have a strong work ethic. If I lost my job and had to work, I'd do whatever I had to do to put food on my table, not sit around on the dole or run up my credit cards.
User
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
We are all born with a certain set of circumstances and abilities. Barring, major catastrophe, it is how we use them that makes the difference. You have to position yourselves for luck and be ready when it comes. A lot of people have been lulled into ongoing security because we have never fought wars on our soil in our lifetimes. Most of us have never had to to worry about having enough to eat.

My dh and I didn't have a lot of opportunities in our home state so we left and we have moved around as we thought was beneficial or advisable. We're now in an area that is experiencing major layoffs. It's going to be a defining time for many. It could be for us too. I don't see looking at these people especially this first woman and realizing that that we can or should make different choices as looking down on her. It's either a lesson to be learned or something to think about. I sort of feel that this story was presented to try to make us feel sorry for her. I don't. The choice has always been hers.
arkansas girl
10 years ago
Yeah tell that 60 year old man that's been working for 30 years to just go back to school and get a new career...LMAO! How crazy is that? Maybe that 80 year old woman needs to just go back and get a new career, what's wrong Granny don't you have enough ambition? WOW! What job can an 80 year old get? That's just whacky talking!
User
Original Author
10 years ago
My husband was
laid off due to 9/11 and finally decided to start his own business once
unemployment ran out. Jobs were few and far between, especially for
those over 50. We are finally at the point where the business
generates
about half of what he used to make, but the layoff will cause him to
get a much lower social security payment, even with postponing SS until
age 70. So him missing out on having a good salary for well over a
decade will affect us for the rest of our lives. We also took a huge hit
on our investments in 2008, which doesn't help.
Several of
hubby's co-workers ended up foreclosed and
bankrupt because they were only able to find very low-paying jobs,
several of them worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time. One of them ended up
divorced and homeless and it
took him years to get back on his feet. Yes, hard work and planning
definitely help, but luck and a good economy has a lot to do with it as well.
Embothrium
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Most new millionaires inherit. The minority of actual self made wealthy often report in interviews that they were extraordinarily lucky - in the right place at the right time.

Onassis propelled his already substantial fortune into the stratosphere by breaking a union. The sky is the limit if you have no qualms about harming other people to line your own pockets or benefit yourself in other ways.

This is what we have going on today, another Age of Robber Barons. How motivated, disciplined, careful or thrifty the rest of us may or may not be has no bearing on the big picture, the big picture that is the real determinant of our overall fortunes.
jeaninwa
10 years ago
I will never be able to retire. I will have to work until I can't...then............................
sleeperblues
10 years ago
Arkansas girl, why so angry? You know I wasn't inferring that the 80 year old woman find a new career. I'm happy I could provide you a good chuckle as you LYAO. I don't really see the point of getting so worked up by the opinion of someone you don't even know. Relax.
Lindsey_CA
10 years ago
"The article said she doesn't eat big macs even though they are cheap because she is watching her health."

Yes, I stand corrected.
Lindsey_CA
10 years ago
Arkansas_Girl you seem to have a lot of pent-up anger. Is this comment of yours directed at me? "It's hard for people with a pot of money to feel empathy for those that are without. I've seen so many people act like they were just the smartest person...never mind that their husbands were super lucky to have gotten a great job and managed to never once in his 30 plus years of employment, gotten laid off. That's not called smart, it's called LUCKY!"

As I said in my original comment, above, we donate a LOT to charity. And that's because we DO have empathy for those who are less fortunate than we are.

I wouldn't agree that my husband was "lucky" to not have been laid off. He went to college, graduate school, and law school. He worked to put himself through school so that he wouldn't have student loan debt. Because of that, he went to law school at night, so it took four years instead of the three years it takes when going full time. He passed the Bar exam the first (and only) time he took it because he studied for it. When retired (and even prior to his retirement), several cities and counties here in California were asking him to come work for them. But he prefers being retired and enjoying life.
Texas_Gem
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I have to agree with Lindsey here.

We aren't "lucky" and I, frankly, resent anyone who would put my and my husband's hard work, sacrifice, dedication, and hours spent away from his family to achieve financial security, as being "lucky."

Luck isn't what drove him to work 45+ hours a week at a crap job, only to go to college classes at night and be home just long enough to give our daughter a kiss on the forehead on her first birthday before rushing off to night classes.

Luck isn't what drove him to, even after graduating college, studying for hours every night to take a test to certify in his field.

Luck isn't what propelled my best friend to continue studying for, and pass, the bar to become a licensed attorney.

Luck isn't what drove my friend to work herself half to death doing a medical residency while also working a minimum wage part time job to make ends meet.

"Luck" has nothing to do with it. It is perseverance, more than luck, that determines success, IMHO.

It is also the same reason I have been coaching my own children to look at a career in something that is indispensable.

There are only so many things that can be outsourced. Medical care, actual hands on work (IT, plumbing, electrical, etc) are things people will ALWAYS need and things which can't be solved over the phone with a guy in India.

I understand how someone 50+ years ago couldn't predict the future global economy but come on....

Why would anyone realistically expect to not only work their whole life on what equates to a menial task but also expect it to give them a cushy retirement?

I'm sorry but I'm not sorry that manufacturing jobs have been outsourced.

Welcome to reality.

Why the h*ll would/should we pay premium dollars to people in the US to essentially push buttons?

I'm sorry, truly I am but if you never developed skills beyond pushing buttons, how or why is it suddenly my responsibility to pay for you?

Surely you realized at some point that you were beating a dead horse, that you were getting paid far more than you should be for a job that anyone can do.

Manufacturing being outsourced isn't the problem, people expecting to retire from it is.
Embothrium
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Manufacturing being outsourced isn't the problem, people expecting to retire from it is.

Why is a major source of employment not paying a complete living including a retirement acceptable to you? How do you see that as a major facet of a functioning society?

Sounds like a slave state to me.
lucillle
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I don't think any company or country OWES people a 'complete living'. Competition is what makes businesses survive.

A minimum wage and social security prevents a slave state, but it doesn't guarantee a life of comfort. In many societies extended family lives together, providing a cushion in case one falls ill or loses a job. Here in the U.S. that is less common, but doesn't mean that it can't be done.

I agree that the wealthy have an edge. But from that agreement, does not automatically spring agreement to fix wages and jobs.

I rode out the 'managed care' deal decades ago where they started laying off nurses. All of a sudden people started dying much more often in hospitals.

So, although there is managed care now, many nurses benefited in terms of higher wages used to lure them back to the hospitals they had been laid off from. I think there are some careers that are in demand, and one is certainly able to research and see what is out there in terms of job security.

I think if one is in a job like manufacturing, one should 'retool' and learn something else when the handwriting is on the wall. Most of the time, there are indications that this is a trend or might happen.
rob333 (zone 7b)
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
No country owes... but what if their poor decisions that caused the housing market crash made her homeless.... do they owe her anything? Shouldn't she have been more protected?
rob333 (zone 7b)
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
A career that is indispensable. Let's see, I was in insurance for 18 years. Everyone needs insurance right? Only, they changed the entire face of it in 1997 and now they've changed it again for ACA. And all the workers had to change. My boss sold his business. I couldn't go back to where I was because they were laying off. So, everyone needs medical care, right? Now that I am in the medical industry, they're laying off people left and right (nurses, techs, admin, etc.) . MDs are leaving! NIH funding has been cut and cut and cut... All of the jobs I've expressed seem indispensable. After 30+ years of working hard, continuing education in fields that "everyone needs", what exactly am I supposed to do when they lay me off? I've made it through the worst of the rounds, but it's still tight, moneywise. What exactly is indispensable? What will be solid in fifty years? Both fields seemed rock solid thirty years ago. Not so much now! I have to say, it doesn't matter if you work hard and know a lot, there is a bit of "luck" in making it through.

My son, who since he was 2, wanted to be a genetic cardiologist, and hasn't entered university yet (2 years from now) is now saying he'll be a PhD. He's seeing what's going on and is now shying away from a medical career. What will happen when an entire generation sees what he sees and we've no one to care for us?
chisue
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I wonder if the woman featured in the story could have realized she would live beyond eighty.

Who today is financially prepared to live comfortably to 100 or beyond? And what will become of those who are not? (Could be you or yours.)
lucillle
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Rob,

You make good points. I don't think any career is indispensable although I think some seem in demand for longer periods of time. What do you think the answer is? Should there be guaranteed livings paid for life? Is that even feasible in today's competitive world?
Chi
10 years ago
There are a lot of things that haven't gone as they should. But that's life. And it's been the same throughout history. Sometimes it's just not fair. But for the most part, hard work and determination will allow a decent life.

The government can't be relied upon to do the right thing. People need to accept personal responsibility for their livelihood regardless of economic conditions. Yes, it sucks that so many people lost their homes in 2007-2008, but many of them should never have bought a home in the first place. The lenders are definitely at fault, but consumers also have the responsibility to know that they can't purchase a $500k house on a $30k salary, no matter what fancy financing is offered. It's just common sense.

There are ways to plan for this. There are ways to be extremely employable in a variety of fields. Pick a degree that will translate to multiple fields, like math or another quantitative subject. I picked an quantitative field and I can work in any industry that I want because numbers are universal. Go to a trade school. There will always be a demand for plumbers, electricians, mechanics. Those jobs cannot be outsourced and they can provide a very good living. Realize that many corporations are not your friend and will stab you in the back whenever they see fit. Always look out for yourself first and change jobs or update skills as needed to stay employable. Start saving as a teenager. Compound interest is your friend. Realize that there is a good chance social security will not exist in X amount of years and save accordingly.

There are people who have truly been dealt an unfair hand in life. But for most of us, there are options to take care of ourselves by using a little common sense, doing some research and realizing that the only people we can really count on are ourselves.
rob333 (zone 7b)
10 years ago
I think my point was more, that there are no guarantees, not even for those of us who work hard, and try hard. I do know it's not her fault. I do know it's not my fault too. No easy answers here
User
Original Author
10 years ago
^^Exactly. And who can honestly say they were able to foresee - and act on - every possible economic and financial circumstance when they were young? That is simply impossible. No one can prepare for all possible circumstances.
chisue
10 years ago
We should stop pushing only a 'college agenda' on every kid. We need all kinds of tradespeople, and many college degrees are pretty worthless in the Real World.

However, one cannot physically continue to DO many trades past a certain age. When Social Security was envisioned, society was largely farmers and tradespeople. Their bodies were worn out by age 65...and there was no modern medicine to keep them alive much longer.

Something has to give as we are saving the lives of infants who will never live unassisted and prolonging lives of dependent elders. I'm not making moral judgments, but how will our First World society cope? How are other societies coping?
Elmer J Fudd
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
"Tell that to the thousands that lost their high paying manufacturing jobs up here in Ohio!"

That's exactly why they lost their jobs, the UAW and other unions ballooned per worker costs to the point where semi-skilled blue collar workers were costing employers $100K per or more. That's why so many new auto plants have been built in the South and in Mexico over the last 20 years, to take advantage of lower labor costs. UAW labor costs had become unaffordable for the car companies. In the meantime, too many of those who lost their jobs from plant closings have stayed in the ghost towns that remain with no employment prospects yesterday, today or ever.

There are many sad personal stories to hear but as others have said, nothing is guaranteed. Those who choose to take a "woe is me" attitude will do less well than others, like Rob, who have adapted to changes in circumstances over time. (PS Rob - you probably know that a $1 billion budget increase was proposed for the NIH. It's been an easy punching bag in recent years for cuts, the proposal isn't enough to make a major difference.)

Embothrium, I think you base your comments on a lot of misinformation.

(Edit to add - I agree completely with chisue, college isn't for everyone. We need more trade schools and industrial arts education. Too many kids go into post secondary education, like community colleges, because they have limited alternatives. Germany has long had a very robust system of industrial training and apprenticeships for which participation by employers is mandatory. It's been very effective. )
rob333 (zone 7b)
10 years ago
I do know about the increase snidely. The sad part is, the American public (and other countries' populace) are the ones missing out on the research. I'm less worried about jobs, and more worried about health.
User
10 years ago
Wow. I'm glad I started saving for retirement in my twenties!
Susan Nunes
10 years ago
Instead of being arrogant and thinking you are better than her, try and walk in her shoes. The only things she should do is file for bankruptcy and sell the RV and live out of temporary housing to try and get back to her sister in California. You can save and save and save, and frankly, most of you are comfortable and married and have NO clue what it is like to be a single woman. All of it can be gone no matter how "smart" you think you are. Almost all of you are just a job or a health crisis disaster from being like her.
User
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
No one has a perfect life. In this country we get to choose how we live
our life. If we make bad choices, then we suffer the consequences. It's true a catastrophic extended job or health crisis could probably destroy all of us. That isn't what happened to her. I've always been told that failing to plan is planning to fail. She failed to plan. Single or married, you still have to look at your resources and figure out how to best use those resources. Unfortunately, we have a lot of people in this country who didn't give it their best effort when they could either. The poor decisions end up affecting everyone.
lucillle
10 years ago
"Instead of being arrogant and thinking you are better than her, try and walk in her shoes."

I am single, have made some poor choices in the past. I don't think anyone here is being arrogant. They are simply pointing out that she is making some poor present choices; but most are following up their opinion by saying that they are her choices to make, as are the consequences.

Poor past choices are waters under the bridge, but present and future choices can make the best of what one has to deal with (or not).
User
10 years ago
I agree with Lucille. The woman featured in the article admits that she didn't save money. Given the choice of needed dental work or a 100 dollar Frank Lloyd Wright venue, she chose FLW. I know there are people out there who can't catch a break...but this person is not one of them.
grainlady_ks
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
~ Confucius - He who does not economize will have to agonize.

~ Unknown - Life is a big test of many choices and for most people there are no bad choices - only bad outcomes.

~ Jewish proverb - A pessimist confronted with two bad choices, choses both.

~ Jean-Paul Sartre - We are our choices.

~ Eric Hoffer - You can never get enough of what you don't need to make you happy.

~ S.W. Straus - Thrift is not an affair of the pocket, but an affair of character.
nanny98
10 years ago
I really like Jean-Paul Sartre ....We ARE our choices. Thank you.
rob333 (zone 7b)
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I use to think that way, we are our choices, until others in my life made choices that I had no control over, and it ended up affecting me. I don't think I should have to live with the consequences of choices I didn't make, but bad stuff happens. Even to good, hard working people who make good, well informed decisions.

Good stuff happens to bad people. Do you think they've "earned" the consequences of their choices?
Elmer J Fudd
10 years ago
Just to offer a balanced view, a budget, a financial plan or even a retirement plan don't necessarily need to involve being thrifty or economical. Doing one simply lays out choices and estimates of spending. As with a driving trip, you need to think about the route beforehand if you expect to reach a specific destination.

It's planning ahead. Many people plan ahead for spending others may consider frivolous or wasteful. (I do and always have, it's part of the fun of life). If all their other bases covered, then so be it.
Chi
10 years ago
I don't think it's about earning or deserving good or bad things. The whole point is that sometimes things happen, unpredictably and through no fault of our own. But it's up to us to do what we can to prepare.
rgreen48
10 years ago
What works in the lab does not always work in the field.
chisue
10 years ago
Just as some indebted guy spends $20 on lottery tickets, this woman spent $100 on the trip. This 'makes sense' when neither amount will do anything significant to get you out of the hole you are in, but can bring a little sunshine into your hole. (Not advising a lifetime of such choices, but I 'get it'.)

"Choice" can imply more viable possibilities than exist. For instance, adoptees often blame their birthmothers for 'choosing' not to keep them. (The legal form a birthparent must sign is very accurately termed a 'surrender'.) A related misapprehension of 'choice' is well-illustrated in the movie "Sophie's Choice".
nanny98
10 years ago
I think that even tho other people's choices can affect our own well being...not always in good ways; the way one handles those consequences become part of our essential being or character or who we are.
joyfulguy
10 years ago
Some of the problem with many is time horizon: they find it hard to think/plan much beyond the end of their own nose. O.K. more than a hundred or so feet down the road.

When driving , the person who drives with awareness of what's going on within the nearest quarter mile ends up with fewer bashed fenders/painful personal realities.

Some years ago at a fall fair in a nearby town, I had a display suggesting the people learn how to make their money work harder, pay less income tax, etc. and a man asked me what right I had to call myself a financial advisor.

I told him of my training, that I'd sold mutual funds for a year, but my supervisor felt that I wasn't an asset, so was "decommissioned".

I liked the field, and continued, but sold no financial products, and told him that, since I had to charge for my time, all that I had to sell was looking at money a little differently than the average person, for if I looked at it as he did, s/he, figuring that s/he wasn't getting any benefit, wouldn't pay to talk to me for very long.

And if I looked at money and its management very differently than the interested person, s/he'd soon widen her/his eyes and run, saying, "No way am I going to trust guidance about the management of my precious money to that flake!".

All that I had to sell was looking at money management a little bit differently than the average person, and the place that I began to have a different view of money than average was when I grew up on the farm. He disagreed strongly ... saying that that had nothing to do with it!

I said that it did, for farmers had to look at money for current living and money to keep the business afloat, and expand it when possible, had to be kept apart in his mind.

He couldn't eat up all of the income from this year's crop in the next year, for there might be a low (or no) crop next year, so he had to prepare ahead for that, but most city folks were used to getting their paycheque regularly, so figured that it was o.k. to spend most of it, for there'd be another soon.

As for capital goods - most city folks bought a car, were making regular/routine payments from their current income, but many didn't think it important to save some from most paycheques as one lived, to build a financial cushion to be available in case of an emergency, e.g. blowing a transmission.

Buying a house, they made a downpayment and had mortgage costs, paid from usual income, but had neither planned to save some extra, month by month, to make an extra mortgage payment from time to time, with the full amount to pay down principal, in some of the years that one payment being as much repayment of principal as their regular monthly payments might achieve over six months or a year, in the early years, when most of the payment was going as interest on the large debt. Nor had many saved some extra, to deal with an emergency, e.g. replacing a roof or a furnace.

Farmers had to be concerned as to whether they should rebuild the motor on their tractor, or trade for a better combine ... or put a new roof on the barn ... or build another ... or get more cows ... pigs, etc. Farmers had to deal on an ongoing basis with those issues relating to their business, which city folks didn't.

The guy was not impressed.

Of such is life.

ole joyfuelled
3katz4me
10 years ago
My mother had a very low income, minimal savings and lived on social security and federally subsidized housing. She never blamed anyone else for her life situation. Her take on it was that you make your bed - you lie in it. She was frugal and never ran up any credit card debt - let alone $50K of it. She wasn't buying organic food either. I learned a great deal from her including personal accountability.
User
10 years ago
Ole Joyful, my philosophy and roots are much like yours. They have served me well.
pekemom
10 years ago
The part about not spending money for the dentist worried me, that should have been a priority.....
Elmer J Fudd
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
joyfulguy, I understand your having nostalgic feelings for bygone days but I think you're embellishing a bit.

What you describe is what people with inadequate income had to do to get by, not any inherent wisdom of these poor folks. The romantic mystique and aurora of the family farm were mostly left behind decades and decades ago. In many places, the smarter farmers realized that operating a family farm wasn't a reliable source of adequate income and they moved on to other occupations. I myself know two people with Midwestern origins, whose fathers wanted them to take over their family farm and neither one had any interest in doing so. Mostly for financial reasons, they wanted to live better lives than the rural existence on a farm could offer.
sjerin
10 years ago
Snidely, I don't see OJ embellishing anything. It appears he has lived in the country/small towns all his life and I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about. Boy, you sure can be a wet blanket at times!
Elmer J Fudd
10 years ago
Sorry, sj. By his own description, the guy he was speaking to wasn't convinced either. Whether learning from what farmers do leads to any insights or wisdom concerning financial matters is something I question. I explained why I felt that way. As a CPA, I think I have some understanding of personal and business finances.
chisue
10 years ago
Seems to me Farming is all about Big Risks!

(I'm almost to the end of Jane Smiley's trilogy, which starts with a farm family in Iowa around 1920 -- including a lot of history prior to then -- and ends in a supposed 2019.)
BB Galore
10 years ago
As I read the story, I wondered why this woman had no network of friends or family. No siblings, no children, no nieces/nephews, no church family...just some shallow, transient relationships and one deceased "bestie" who left her $20 grand.

The choices we make earlier in our lives catch up with us in old age (not always, but often enough to make a carelessly lived life an extreme risk). Neglect your health, your finances, your career path, and your family, and you will end up sick, poor, unemployable, and alone.
Lindsey_CA
10 years ago
The fact that this 79-year-old woman likes to eat organic food has been mentioned more than once. Unless she has eaten organic nearly her entire life, I can't help but wonder what good it's doing her now. Organic food is more expensive, and since she doesn't have a lot of money to spend... and since she's probably not reaping a lot of benefits from eating organic at this stage of her life... wouldn't her money go a lot farther if she didn't eat organic?
User
10 years ago
I finally had time to read the article. It's interesting.

I'm glad the lady had the means to live a full life and have some adventure.
BB Galore
10 years ago
"I'm glad the lady had the means to live a full life and have some adventure."

Did we read the same article? "Too poor to retire and too young to die" is not a tale of the bohemian adventures of a free spirit. She's not living a full life; she's living a desperate life. She's an old woman who has to take jobs where she's on her feet 12 hours a day, and lives in an RV that's on its last legs, without the means to make necessary repairs. She's hanging on to the memories of a former life when she could afford to indulge in little luxuries, in denial that her current situation is far more dire. She's one illness or injury from being hospitalized long enough to have her RV impounded, and will then be without a home or transportation. (She couldn't afford a speeding ticket, much less impound fees. There is no buffer in her life.) She may likely spend her remaining days in homeless shelters. The article spoke of no relatives or friends who would take her in.

Yes, she's trying to make lemonade out of lemons, but she can't afford the sugar that could make it drinkable. I fear for anyone's future to end up in such a sad, lonely, desperate place.
wildchild2x2
10 years ago
The New York City native had put herself through business school and had spent time as a bank executive secretary and a museum curator. She’d later started her own interior design consulting firm. That’s when she bought Big Foot, using it as a mobile office to meet clients across California.

After her retirement in 2007, she had planned on selling the double-wide to finance a lifelong dream: touring the nation from behind the wheel of Big Foot.

I read the same article. Sounds like a full life to me. The recession hit and she wasn't able to follow through with her long term financial plan. It was a shoestring budget to some who choose live "safe" but she did have a plan. So she did the best she could and still held on to control of her life for seven more years. Maybe barely but it is her full life. She did it her way.

LA Times Article - Too poor to retire and too young to die

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