Can't think of nothing to add so just going to wish you the best bart! Hopefully you get things all worked out!

This is a tough question Bart. I have sort of been in the same situation. In order too do my yard and empty lot it takes 3 dump trucks with 6 yards of mulch. I could not afford it any more.

I did as HoovB suggested for a few years sometimes it cost 50 dollars. Others times it was free. I can't physically do that anymore. Should you do this think about where your pile will sit. Mine had to sit in sun until it was shoveled out. So if the trees were cut while the leaves were on the pile would become dangerously hot. With a smoke plume rising up from the pile. I was careful after that to get it in early spring or late fall. They also don't grind it up as well as regular mulch and much harder too shovel up.

I swear I've tried a thousand different plants. Nothing worked that well.

Now I use straw but it's not the prettiest solution. With straw you must be mindful of droughty years and possible fires. They tell you to get straw minus the seeds. Well, there ain't no such thing honey! Not around here anyway. This year I bought enough straw for next year. Opened the bails too hopefully let the seeds dry up or rot before spring. I have a place too do this not every one would. Then again you're not guaranteed what may have been used on the straw while in the field. Until this point I'll say that I've never before seen my soil so alive. Thousands of worms, good beetles, firefly larvae and on and on. Since using straw for a while now I can dig by hand 6 to 8 inches down with my bare hands.

Good luck with what you decide to do.

Bart, I have no experience with a very large property like yours, so people such as hoovbe and Patty will have much more helpful advice about developing and mulching. My advice is about the plants themselves. With few pennies to spare when I started gardening, I found that buying 1 decent sized perennial, the bigger the better, of each variety that I envisioned planting, was the most cost effective. I used each as mother plants for cuttings, and while those were growing on to a size that I could plant out, I cleared and prepared the section of garden I next wanted to develop. Many perennials can also be grown from seed and I did this too. I planted at least 20" away from the roses, but as the perennials grew they covered the spaces, and also reseeded themselves over the years, so now I just remove any that grow right against the base of the roses. I do my major feeding after the perennials are cut back in winter and when I have finished the rose pruning. I wish you all the best in your garden endeavours. Melodye

Bart... I forgot to add what hoovb said about one area at a time is the best idea. The kind of woodland plants as you described are tough plants. I fear that perennials will be over run by the stronger weeds if the weeds are not controlled first. There are ground cover sedums that I've had that will grow in woodland conditions. I threw them in shade once without planting them. In 2 years they covered the whole north side garden. If they are in a moist spot they don't develop deep roots and where easy too remove when I had plants to place there.

I started gardening out here in desert sagebrush dirt that had never grown anything but weeds and native plants. I planted as many free perennial divisions as I could get from my gardening friend who had lots to share, and I'm still growing many of those years later. The shrubs and some roses were planted by our landscapers, who were a real bunch of incompetents. I spent lots of time on my knees pulling every weed that dared sprout. Once we upgraded our watering system, the original perennials, plus some I had purchased started to reseed and produce volunteers, which I transplanted all over my garden. The volunteers begat their own seedlings and things started to fill in. And of course, I planted more roses, annuals and perennials, and flowering shrubs. The final step was sowing all kinds of seed, both purchased and gathered, that could be direct sown, and didn't have to be started inside. Things really filled in then, and now my weeds have decreased to the point where they are easily removed in the spring and totally crowded out by my plants as the season progresses. Plants that reseed well here are rudbeckia, coneflowers, Jupiter's Beard (valerian), cosmos, alyssum, snapdragons, occasionally campanula, Four O'Clocks, Datura, some Shasta Daisy, catmint, lavender, Russian Sage, salvia, hollyhocks, poppies, and on and on. Some of these plants might be invasive in your area, so do your research, and avoid those. and of course, your soil and woodland environment are very different from mine. But the progression is : use as many free and cheap plants, as possible; transplant like a maniac all those volunteer seedlings you can use; direct sow like crazy; pull every weed in sight as you progress in your filling in of your flower beds. I never sprayed weeds a single time. Diane

I also did as hoov and Patty suggested, concentrating on one area at a time. The front of the house came first, then the sides, and finally the back. I used lots of composted manure on everything, including the roses. The roses also get Plant Tone and other goodies. I didn't worry about plants getting too close to the roses--if certain plants got aggressive I pulled them back or out. I did use some groundcovers which can be a pain to remove when they've outlived their usefulness, or become invasive, which can certainly happen. I still have violets filling one bed, and they are strictly contained. Sweet woodruff was OK for a while, and when I had other plants to fill in the area it grew in, I pulled the sweet woodruff out en masse, like a carpet (pretty funny, actually). Avoid bishop's weed. I had pretty good luck with evening primrose as a groundcover for a while, but it can be invasive in different climates. Diane

I've used mondo grass. The good thing is that it spreads fast. The bad thing is that it spreads fast. I've also used moss flox and creeping jenny. I would love to cut down on the amount of mulch I need.

thanks all ! I guess I didn't make it clear that the weed situation in the areas in which I intend to plant is (or at least, seems to be) pretty much under control. When I said that it's "time to re-do the whole thing", what I intended was that the old mulch has dwindled down a good deal, and it's time to intervene again, because though there are no weeds now ,there will be again soon if I don't either a) re-mulch or b) fill the spaces up with other plants (and then mulch around these in their turn ,of course, but it would require less mulch since space would be occupied by the new plants). Of course there are plenty of areas which ,though mulched, are not yet at a point for planting up, and plenty of OTHER areas that have yet to be cultivated and/or mulched,but I am not talking about these areas; I am talking about spots where, during the past summer, I had few to no weeds. Hiring someone to chop down trees and then chip up the wood would probably wind up being WAY more expensive than just buying a ready-made truck-load full,as well as being totally impractical ,since my land is on a steep slope, and the wooded areas are all below the rose garden area, and on extremely uneven terrain to boot! I actually asked the wood-chip man (whose company also does other big outdoor jobs) if they could help me construct the lower portion of my fence, but they can't since the terrain is too rough for them to be able to get their machinery down there! At least with the truck-o-chips method, all they have to do is back the truck up inside the main gate (practically the only easily accessible area of my land) and dump them. It's OK as long as I only have to do this a couple more times max, because of the cost but maybe more because of the wear and tear this mulching job causes on my body: lugging the heavy bags of chips down to the garden wrecks havoc on you.Another plus to using more plants and less mulch: it would help reduce the damage caused by critters digging; they LOVE all those wide, empty spots of mulch, and make a mess. Ozmelodye,thanks especially for the tip about buying larger plants!!! This is very timely, since I was going to go for many smaller ones; instead now I think I'll get fewer but bigger ones...

O, I forgot...@ Diane...you talk of "concentrating on one area at a time..." could you possible give me a "guesstemite" as to how large was each seperate area, say in square yards/feet/ etc.? just to help me avoid over-reaching...?

Are you wanting plants for the wooded area of your garden too provide a pleasant background for the roses? Also too deter the weeds from creeping back in towards the roses.

If you're looking for woodland plants that will help with weeds and grow quickly there are many. I list some that can fend for themselves. There are also wild flowers that will grow from seed and look beautiful. The Cottage Garden forum has always been rather active those guys would have lots of ideas.

That too, Patty! that is another project that I dream of doing: "playing" with the wooded area nearest to the rose garden,making a "woodland garden" space!!! So, yes, yes ,yes please! do list! even though for now that project is on the back burner, it's fun to start thinking ahead...

Bart, I don't know what your winters are like and it is a succulent, but I have used saxifraga multicava as a fast growing ground cover. It thrives in sun, shade, dry and moist areas, its branches root where they touch the ground, bits that break off root easily and it is a profuse reseeder. No annual weeds grow through it. I guarantee that if it likes your garden, you will always have plenty to play around with! If you have open areas between the roses and wooded areas there are also wildflower mixes that will suit that location also. Melodye

Another that may make a good "living mulch" would be Alchemilla mollis. Many complain that it self-seeds too readily, but as a companion for roses that grow taller than it does, perhaps that propensity would work to your advantage. And it's hard to find something that clashes with it.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, I wonder if Italy is warmer and dryer than Alchemilla mollis prefers. It is looking less well here, somewhat parched, than in Alaska, where it always was perfection.

Bart...I just realized I don't know where you live. I just googled Illinois wildflowers. Best suggestions come from your state university sites. A couple suggestions for you.

If you ever plant hosta get the very thick leaved hosta as they are not bothered by slugs. Hosta grows very easily from seed that falls to the ground. But it needs a couple of years before it will look like what it's suppose too. Should you ever want seed just let me know. I can supply plenty.

Should you ever plant ferns stay away from the Ostrich variety. If left on it's own it will consume your entire wooded area.

Bugbane aka cimicifuga are easy if you stay with the spicies. The same with polemoniun.

Can't beat spring larkspur, sweet rocket and woodland phlox. Clouds of Perfume and Blue Moon do very well here and smell wonderful.

Strawberries are used a lot here. It is short lived as a perennial and do not get the alpine/wild variety if you don't want it to take over too much. Regular June bearing or ever bearing look great with their dainty flowers and shiny leaves.

Another thing people use a lot here is lambs ear, this might be a bit more tolerant of a dry spot.

Patty, I live in Italy! so it's VERY different from the USA! But I really appreciate all these responses to my thread. That's what a forum is for, I think: a place where you can throw out ideas, and discuss, and hear what other people say, and all the things help to stimulate thought. I am not very knowledgeable about perennials at all, and though some of the suggestions are kind of swaying from my original query about what would be good in the rose part of my project, I welcome the comments.Now, this Alchemilla mollis, for example:::I DO intend to Google this plant. Even if it is not particularly adapted to my situation, my experience has been that ...well, you Google one plant, and who knows where that info will take you??? like Bilbo Baggins, I guess.a bit...once you put your foot outside the door,who knows where you will go?

And this saxifraga multicava??? looks great! will I be able to find it here? also not sure how a succulent might do in my conditions, but here again, it's another thread from Ariadne that could help Theseus out of the maze, n'cest pas?

Bart I just saw that your in zone 8 in Italy. Please disregard my plant ideas. As these would not be the correct plants for your area. My apologies!

If you need to gain some control over weeds for a period before doing any planting (especially if you are planing to plant prerennials), there are 2 solutions. Herbicides, which I guess you are averse to, and solarization.

The latter can be very effective for up to a full year (depending on rainfall and weed kinds). Just cover the soil with overlapping clear polyethylene sheets, secure with rocks and leave in place for 3-6 weeks during high summer, say late May to August. Best results if covering is done following a significant rain event i.e. the soil is moist. Of course you have to do that away from the drip line of plants you don't want killed...

It works best if you have patches of land you need to subsequently turn into beds or shallowly cultivate.

Some more info here.