Fine hair-like thorns? Like raspberries? The blackberries in Griffith Park have the more traditional rose-like thorns. They grow in large tangled messes about 3 or four feet tall and however deep. Lots and lots of spider webs, too. It was probably not ursinus, I guess. I did some more researching... The Wikipedia entry on blackberries had some interesting background on the development of the thornless varieties. The thornless-erect varieties have been developed (primarily) at the University of Arkansas, and they share some common traits, including that they are "less vigorous" but tolerate cold better than the semi-erect varieties. (Navaho, Ouachita, Cherokee, Apache, Arapaho and Kiowa.) They propagate through root runners. Many of the Eastern semi-erect thornless varieties were developed through USDA-ARS in Maryland and were hybridized from the UK's Merton Thornless. "The semi-erect blackberries are thornless, crown forming, incredibly vigorous, and need a trellis for support. Cultivars of this type include the very popular Chester Thornless as well as Triple Crown, Loch Ness, 'Loch Tay', Smoothstem, Hull Thornless, Dirksen Thornless and Black Satin." Many of the trailing varieties have been developed though USDA-ARS's Oregon facility. (Black Diamond, Black Pearl and Nightfall as well as the very early ripening Obsidian and Metolius.) The erect ones tend to be the most cold-hardy, the trailing ones the least. I am having the greatest difficulty finding information about chill hours for blackberries. Not a clue to be found, anywhere. It would be nice to have all this in a convenient blackberry FAQ. I thought I researched the subject of blackberries fairly well before ordering the Arapaho, years ago. I've been patting myself on the back for being so thorough in picking the best variety... and then I waited, and waited, and waited. From reading older threads on the forum here, I can see now that there are many people that have had problems with Arapaho just "not growing" after being planted, so my problem is not unique. Why? I don't know. Maybe the UofA thornless plants have more temperamental soil or climate requirements than the other thornless varieties. I read one article last night about experiments growing commercial varietes in Arizona, and the worst performing of the lot were the UofA varieties. The Texas developed varieties performed very well. Key quote: "Most of the blackberries planted had new shoot growth three to four weeks after planting. Up to three plants of each variety did not have a growth flush; these plants had all died by summer 1994. All the plants of the 'Arapaho', 'Cherokee' and 'Shawnee' cultivars had died by spring 1995. All the plants of 'Cheyenne', 'Choctaw' and 'Navajo' cultivars had died by spring 1997. We attribute the mortality to lack of chilling. Arkansas varieties apparently do not grow well in southern Arizona because of the warm winters, as suggested by Moore (1984)." Arizona article (Dr. Moore is the man behind the whole UofA breeding program for the past 40 years.) I guess I made a mistake going with Arapaho. Such a shame, though, to have to find out this way. Three years wasted. It looks, now, as though I would have been better off with semi-erect thornless varieties (like Triple Crown) that were developed at Maryland. Does anybody have any leads on chill hour requirements? It would be nice if we could make a table.

Thank you fruitnut and Voyager034. Voyager034: Hadn't thought about boysenberry. What made you select boysenberry over blackberry? Are your boysenberry thornless? Do they taste more like blackberries or raspberries? Do you think they are hardier than blackberries? Fruitnut: 1) How often do you have to tie the canes? Every couple of days? Once a week? 2) Once a cane arches back down to the pot, do you cut it off or loop it back around? 3) Do you incorporate all the canes from a plant, or do you limit it to a small number of the most promising canes? 4) I've read a couple of approaches to managing / pruning blackberries. What are you doing? Do you cut off the tips or do you let the canes grow to maximum height? What do you do with the laterals? Do you tie them into your wreath parallel to the canes, or do are they short enough to just let them hang out? 5) Will you choose 5 gallon pots next time? Thanks

Hello Loud, Thanks for the link to the Black Pearl blackberry. It was interesting to note that they have actual pedigrees for plants. I raised and showed Yorkshire Terriers for quite awhile and of course, dogs have pedigrees, but I didn't think of anything like plants as having them, but it makes sense if one is developing a new variety, they would need to keep track of what was used to do so. Thanks for answering my questions. I wouldn't think that blackberries that would do well up North would do well down this far South. We used to be able to ride out to the country and go along fencelines to pick wild blackberries and dewberries, but that is no more. It was a lot of fun with the kids. I don't miss the torn up hands, though. Used to make my hands itch so badly from all the scratches. I do appreciate the thornless blackberries and mine taste very good. noss

I really like this thread, as I am especially interested in blackberry flavor. Ouchita - planted as a large specimen in 2014. Vigorous, upright grower, throwing canes 10' in the air. It is also suckering like crazy, up to 10' feet away, which I view as a plus. Earliest fruit for me this year, mid June and is finishing now, with no more unripe berries left on the bush. I may be harvesting early, but I find this one quite sour. Chester - planted in 2014, only the roots survived an early frost. It recovered extremely well and is another vigorous grower. It has been tip-rooting and I have about four new plants out of that. The fruit is ripening in the last week of June and I expect to continue through the first few weeks of July, based on the unripe berries on the plant. These harvest sweet than Ouchita. Neither have much flavor beyond sweet / sour. I planted Black Satin and Apache this year on a hill in partial shade, we'll see how they do. Apache's first cane bore a lot of fruit this year, nothing outstanding in the flavor department.