hey al .. ignore the idiots ... life is too short to be irritated by them... you said: So what part of Zone 5 are you in that you can plant early May? i said to start them about 4 weeks prior to last frost ... i see my sentence was rather vague .. lol ... but let me clarify further ... they need to be about 4 to 6 weeks old when they go out .... so to that you should add how long they take to germinate .... and i dont have that info off hand .... as noted.. its on the pack.. lol ... i am in adrian MI ... just south of ann arbor ... and out here in the country.. last frost date is reliably the last week of may ... and since the 'rent anniversary is 5/25 .... i can say that we have used that date as our plant out date for the 40 years i have been paying attention .... mx is in metro Detroit .. and z6 [ i have a theory about retained heat by cement causing the increased zone] .. i really question her comment that she is frost free around 5/1 ... take that with a grain of salt .. as i can see her out there building little TP's on a cold-forecasted night .. she is totally a full contact gardener ... petal to the metal ... she will get away with a few things that some of us who are not as full contact ..... only you will define were you are in that spectrum .... in my world.. i plant them out ... when i dont have to worry about them ... otherwise i leave them in the closed garage at night .. last year all the neighbors were bemoaning a late poor crop of tom's .... and we decided a late cold spell retarded proper flowering and fruit set .... after a very warm .. hot april ... may was back to march temps .... tom's are all about soil warmth.. and last year.. it was out of phase ... but in the case of tomatoes ... they are VERY.. VERY susceptible to frost ... so i would hesitate ... after investing all that effort to grow them... to not be sticking them out too early ... good luck ken

I have been gardening in what I call "glacier slurry" and you call glacier till since '04. The only tool that worked for me was a hand mattack and I dug deep wide holes and perk tested them. My backfill was natural soil and purchased compost because my housepad/gardening area was cut out of a slope. There is probably little plant organic material in the gardening area because of it being cut out of the slope ... except for the decayed mulch material I have applied twice a year over the last several years. The glacier slurry is porous and drains well, which means that anything I use will end up in our water supply, the Trinity River. Until last year, I tried to get by with organics and time-released fertilizers, but the plants just didn't thrive. They did OK, but I knew something was missing. Last spring, after the estimated last frost date in April, I applied 1/4 cup of calcium nitrate to the larger roses and less to the smaller roses. I watered well the day before and then watered again the same day I applied the CN. It was enough to kick start the roses and they did a LOT better last season. Altho' the roses do leaf out earlier than they should, most of that growth is blind growth. I think it's the plant trying to feed itself through photosynthesis. We always get a late frost or snow before the middle of April and that growth generally dies off or gets pruned off. We have temps in the high 90s or low 100s for weeks at a time during the summer and time released foods are just burned up too quickly to be reliable, so last year, I did a combination of organics and synthetics and all of the plants were healthier than in prior years. In my experience, it's hard to find the right balance to feed the plants and not pollute our water source. I think I have planted the last of the roses I am going to plant, except for replacements for roses that don't do well in this climate. I know I don't want to dig any more rose holes in this stuff. Smiles, Lyn

Well, all the tomatoes are planted at my house - so far, slow/lousy germination. Some of the cherries sprouted quickly, but the vast majority (brand new seed) are still 'stuck in the mud'. All the tomatoes are in 72 cell trays on a heating mat, so it isn't the temp. Still plenty of time, and I need to put up the new shelf system from Lowes. The current one is completely full and I haven't potted anything up yet. It's still way too early to put stuff in the greenhouse/shed so it looks like a second 5 shelf system with lights. For the first time I planted all my Spring peas indoors - both snap and snow. Last year they all rotted in the ground since it was so cold and wet. I'll get them out a week or too later, but they will all be babies rather than seed. Broc, lettuce, beets, spinach, bok choy, nappa cabbage and the rest of the Spring stuff is coming along. Just another week or two until they go out into the garden. Pumpkins, water melon, melons, cucumbers (6 kinds this year), peppers and the rest (along with the slow tomatoes) are up and growing. I guess I should take some pictures for the Nobel Prize committee ... Andrew

Thanks Sue. I assumed that when the seed package said 72 day to maturity it was from when the seed germinated. OK, I found another seed pack that said from transplant. I will be starting form a cutting that is about 10 inches long buried so that only two or three small leaves are above the ground. They really grow quick. Like the one in the pink container. The cutting will start off growing fast. As the weather is getting cooler, out of the 90 degrees, the cutting should grow fast until the weather gets much cooler. It seems like it is going to be guess work as I have never done this before. Next year I should know a little more about the time it takes to produce big green tomatoes like the tomato plant on the right. May be someone else with a green house has already done this. As long as I have tomatoes that have set I should be alright. I just donÂt want to grow a tomato plant all winter that never sets tomatoes. Karyl ====