""Scientists long ago abandoned the idea that marijuana causes users to try other drugs...""

While it may not cause people to use other drugs in the physical, addictive sense, its pleasurable effects often prompt experimentation with other mind altering substances, many of which are addictive.

alcohol 'could' be considered a 'gateway' drug too!! and, most people who drink alcohol or smoke pot don't ever have a desire to try heroin- even those who get addicted to alcohol or pot!

what we need to figure out is why are so many young people willing to try heroin these days! when i was young, i never, EVER would try something like heroin and i didn't ever know anyone who did!! only time i saw it being used was in a restroom at a bar once. now, unfortunately, it really is a problem in so many areas of the us... many of the kids with caring and loving parents... sad and scary... :(

snookums, I think you might be confusing correlation with causation - I would think the more logical chain might be that the type of person to want to try mind altering things might try marijuana and try harder drugs as well.

An addictions doctor who once visited my addictions epidemiology class once described the pattern of prescription drug abuse as follows (approximately):

"Let's say you undergo surgery and are prescribed an opioid for pain relief. First few times you take it you're lifted out of yourself and it feels great, really awesome. But most patients only enjoy the vacation from their life for so long and then get tired of feeling unlike themselves - they want to get back to regular functioning and get on with their lives. Some patients, however, very much enjoy being 'on vacation' from their regular thoughts and emotions and these are the users we consider to be at risk for prescription drug abuse."

So much shared here. I LOVE what MissyMoo and Ellendi have shared. This mom needs to trust her gut about her daughter. No matter what anything thinks about drugs and alcohol, they are ILLEGAL and she could go to jail! She could also be self-medicating by checking out and not dealing with the pressures in her life. I have a 22 year old son that still doesn't have it together. Getting to that place of responsibility and self-sufficiency is often times not a straight path. This mom needs to love her daughter, of course but set loving healthy boundaries for her and send the strong message about what is unacceptable and not productive for her in her life moving forward. Home can be her soft place to fall and a place to collect herself. But mom CANNOT support her party away from home.

There is absolutely noway I would be paying on a lease with two classes being taken and bad grades in those two classes. Period!

Maybe I don't understand the definition of a gateway drug but I don't know of any addict who started using heroin, crack or anything else as their first drug of choice. I have learned more about addiction, drug use and addicts than I ever wanted to know and I will never believe that marijuana is not the first step on a slippery slope.

I hope that the op has found a point or two in these discussions that can help her moving forward and I wish her and her family good luck. I would think with her husband being a police officer they would have access to multiple agencies which could help. Best of luck to you, op.

Busy~ When I was young heroin meant needles , with the ability to now smoke and inhale, it's become more "acceptable". If you were willing to smoke a joint -a laced joint was not that far off.

4boys2- heroin still means needles for many- that is what's killing so many 'kids' these days- much less likely to od when smoking it...

I don't think weed is necessary a gateway drug, i.e., causing one to move on to heroin. The drugs and their effects aren't alike. But, if one is open to experimentation, to trying things, to perhaps taking a risk, you might be the type of person who will try both.

Hate sweet things? You probably won't load up at the dessert bar. If I like chocolate decadence, does it lead me to eating way too much crème brûlée? No, but both are sweets and have maybe more calories than is good for me.

None of the hundreds of people I know who smoked weed in college, or now, have ever tried heroin (at least not as far as I know). I just don't believe it logically follows that weed makes it more likely you will try heroin any more than it logically follows that drinking a glass of wine makes it more likely you will try heroin (and science also agrees with me).

Most people can weigh costs/benefits. Risk of weed: low. Risk of heroin: really pretty high.

Just like some people will break the law by speeding but won't necessarily take the risk of running a red. Or some people like cake and will eat a few pieces but won't eat the entire cake. It depends upon your risk tolerance and the addictiveness of your personality.

Of course people who are going to try heroin are probably going to do weed first when they start looking for an escape, because weed is easier to find and less risky. But if marijuana didn't exist, it's not like they'd just not become addicted.

One of the things that is often pointed out is if you legalize weed and people get it from licensed providers, then they're less likely to be put in touch with people who could also get them the harder stuff.

If you're going to a weed store and buying your marijuana and are pretty happy with your buzz, you'll have to be pretty motivated to specifically seek out a dealer to give you harder stuff. If your weed dealer has the pot and other stuff is right there and you've got an addictive personality, it may be easier to say "Give me some of that too, while we're at it."

Edited to add- I found this story interesting. A judge in Canada sentenced a guy growing marijuana plants to pay a $1.30 penalty, calling the laws criminalizing marijuana ridiculous. He commented: "the current laws, if fully enforced, would result in criminal records for more than half the population - including government lawyers and "perhaps judges."

I really think your daughter is suffering from depression. I recently went through a bout of major clinical depression and I can see similarities in what you've described with your daughter.

If it were my kid, I'd have her see a doctor to be evaluated for depression. Then I'd buy out of the lease, have her take time off school and come home and get the care she needs.

As to the smoking weed-now that it is fully legal here in Oregon, I am pretty shocked at the number of professional adults (not twenty somethings, but 40-50 and up) who are openly smoking weed. Frankly, it is no different than drinking-you can over indulge (with weed you burn out), and some people (like me) don't like the taste and effect. I fully and respectfully disagree about it being a gateway drug. Gate way drugs are things like prescription pills that lead to smoking meth or heroin-depending on the drug. Again, I personally know of several professional adults who are hooked on opiods. They're just one refill away from heroin. Marijuana is prescribed for pain relief and it's not addictive.

But getting back to your daughter-get her evaluated for depression. And as for you and your husband, a good family counsellor will do wonders. I see a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and I love him to pieces. My best friend sees a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner. It doesn't matter their pedigree-for you you wouldn't need one who can prescribe meds, so a LCSW is probably good.

Best of luck to you.

"interesting. A judge in Canada sentenced a guy growing marijuana plants to pay a $1.30 penalty, calling the laws criminalizing marijuana ridiculous. He commented: "the current laws, if fully enforced, would result in criminal records for more than half the population - including government lawyers and "perhaps judges."

Talk about ridiculousness and affluenza. Because it might affect lawyers and judges, his fellow group of people or himself, on something that he happens to approve of - reduced penalties and sentences on this one folks.

I guess cocaine will be next, since that has become a popular recreational drug among affluent people and professionals.

It's not affluence, it's just about as socially acceptable as alcohol. 44% of adult Canadians have used marijuana at least once. Considering it's demonstrably less harmful than alcohol (not to say it isn't harmful, it just isn't a poison - and I say this as a dedicated wine drinker), it's a crime and a sin how many people are in jail for it.

Three years ago, 66% of Canadians favoured decriminalization or legalization of marijuana. Now it is up to a whopping 86%!!! Including 75% of Conservative voters! I don't think Canadians are so unified on any other issue. So the judge was reflecting the views of the overwhelming majority of Canadians. I think for many the prospect of regulating marijuana sales and limiting sales to children is a motivator. Canadian teens lead the world in cannabis use.

"There’s just no good reason that so much police time and taxpayer money
is spent punishing people for marijuana when so many murders, rapes and
robberies go unsolved." The FBI's figures show that over half of the
nation's violent crimes, like murder, rape and assault, went unsolved in 2014.

source

I voted against legalization in Oregon. Not that I want people prosecuted, but I didn't want it to be so readily available. I guess I'm naive to think it isn't anyway.

I don't think sitting around stoned for hours is a good use of anyone's time or money. Do any of you who think it's no big deal to use marijuana really want your kids smoking it regularly like the OP's daughter? The OP really doesn't care about all the statistics. It's not a lifestyle she envisioned for her child when she sent her off to college. Is that what you would want for your child?

They are still doing studies to determine if there is a change in the brain for daily smokers. It sounds like the OP's daughter is a daily smoker. Who's financing that habit?

I would be somewhat concerned. I certainly wouldn't like them to be drinking daily, which is likely far worse for their physical and mental health (my province is known for its heavy drinkers).

I think marijuana and alcohol use in teens should be actively discouraged. Alcohol kills a lot more teens than marijuana.

Why would you be concerned?

As a symptom of the other potential problems discussed in the thread, for depression or a controlling relationship. I would always be concerned for my child if they were seeming to stray so far off path. Depending on their path of course. Many students struggle with independence. To my mind daily smoking is more likely to be a symptom than a disease (not that I don't know chronics as well).

i would be concerned with daily use of pot or alcohol too--- it can become less of a recreational substance then and has more potential for addiction when used daily-- alcohol of course can be physically addicting- pot less so physically, but certainly can be psychologically addicting...

I think the discussion went off on a tangent when alcohol use was brought up. There's a bit of an attitude of "I'd rather it be pot than alcohol". I'd rather it be neither. Even if my child was the most well-adjusted teen in the world, had a non-addictive personality, etc. etc., I still wouldn't want him using it as a recreational substance. If I wouldn't want him to take up cigarettes as a teen, why would I be okay with pot?

My late husband I have both been around the block several times. Started smoking as kids, alcohol, other recreational substances. So it's not like we were naive. We never encouraged our daughter to partake of any of these, but we were never coy or in denial about it either. For DH and me, quitting tobacco was one of the hardest things ever. We had friends who developed very bad alcohol addictions. Some are in successful recovery, some never made it out.

We never told DD, go ahead and smoke pot. But we did let her know that of the two, alcohol was worse and more likely to be abused. There was the night she borrowed our car and later we found a roach in the ashtray in the backseat. Of course she ratted out her friend. There were consequences for this stupidity (what if I was driving innocently to work, get pulled over and the officer finds a roach in my car), and she hated us for a few days for being horrible, mean parents, but, you play, you pay. Now? I laugh. We all survived.

Kids are gonna do stupid stuff. Better to arm them with some facts. All this happened before she turned 18 and was living under our roof. If there had been bad stuff going on, I would have cut the source of money.

This has been an interesting thread to follow. Clearly a complicated topic and underscores the immense difficulty in parenting.

Regarding heroin, one of the biggest "gateways" to it are prescription painkillers that are opioids and many kids become addicted when prescribed for sports injuries, car accidents etc. We have children in sports. Fortunately, none have been hurt but should they be, they will NOT take opioids for pain. Never, never, never.

My kids are still in middle school and high school. But I always thought one silver lining to our society's conspicuous consumption is that children who are accustomed to it cannot easily afford it in those 18-25 years. That's going to be my carrot... After 18 I will help my children with their cell bills, insurance, housing, etc. only if they are enrolled full-time in college, gainfully employed 40+ hrs/week, or a productive combination thereof.

I would prefer my kid use pot daily to either daily alcohol use or smoking cigarettes. I would not be thrilled with daily use but if I wasn't paying for it and she was doing well in school, I wouldn't be too upset. Doing poorly in school would be a big problem and the end of my financing of the lifestyle without immediate improvement. I also would not pay for pot- you want it, you buy it.

"it's a crime and a sin how many people
are in jail for it."

They are in jail because they broke the law.

I would think farming, dealing or repeat offenses
would see the heavier penalties involving jail time. I don't know how
severe the penalties are for possession. In the judicial system, I have
seen drug paraphernalia listed with DUI’s where there were fines, maybe with probation,
even when it was a repeat offense - not jail time.

I wonder what these people who were put in
jail were doing when they got caught. DUI? Dealing? Loud
party with drugs and alcohol that drew attention? Certainly they weren't in
their homes quietly relaxing for the rest of the evening, ie, staying off the
roads.

I can see that if people are serving jail time
for smoking pot, it is a shame, considering that other bad boy, alcohol, is legal
and that marijuana is also firmly rooted in our society. Two wrongs do not make a right, though. In the end, they chose to disrespect and
break the law. It is an illegal activity.
That they don't understand or care that there are consequences for that is
both odd and troubling. I also have to wonder how good their judgment is
when sober, more less while intoxicated.

I think if marijuana were legalized and readily
available for the masses to experiment with, there would be more users, therefore,
more intoxicated people, so more people who end up being a hazard on the roads.
People I have known to smoke often do it during the day, too, not just as an evening
cocktail. It’s not obvious, so they can be
high while doing their jobs. Not
uncommon. Since there is potential for (various
types of) accidents to occur while intoxicated - which can affect others, quite
tragically – mind-altering substances are a problem. I don't think we need any more people DUI, for
instance. We have had enough trouble
with the one that’s legal.

Also, in my experience, where there is weed
there is usually alcohol around too.

Note the section on mental health, brain function and memory:

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

MENTAL HEALTH, BRAIN FUNCTION, AND MEMORY

It has been suggested that marijuana is at the root of many mental disorders, including acute toxic psychosis, panic attacks (one of the very conditions it is being used experimentally to treat), flashbacks, delusions, depersonalization, hallucinations, paranoia, depression, and uncontrollable aggressiveness. Marijuana has long been known to trigger attacks of mental illness, such as bipolar (manic-depressive) psychosis and schizophrenia. This connection with mental illness should make health care providers for terminally ill patients and the patients themselves, who may already be suffering from some form of clinical depression, weigh very carefully the pros and cons of adopting a therapeutic course of marijuana.

In the short term, marijuana use impairs perception, judgment, thinking, memory, and learning; memory defects may persist six weeks after last use. Mental disorders connected with marijuana use merit their own category in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) IV, published by the American Psychiatric Association. These include Cannabis Intoxication (consisting of impaired motor coordination, anxiety, impaired judgment, sensation of slowed time, social withdrawal, and often includes perceptual disturbances; Cannabis Intoxication Delirium (memory deficit, disorientation); Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Delusions; Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Hallucinations; and Cannabis Induced Anxiety Disorder.

In addition, marijuana use has many indirect effects on health. Its effect on coordination, perception, and judgment means that it causes a number of accidents, vehicular and otherwise.

Whattodo92, are you still out there?

Snook, I'm not taking sides on "for" or "against" but that paper I think is from 1997. I know there has been much more research in the past nineteen years. Do you have anything resent?

Hmm. Well the one section on the immune system does source a research paper from 1997. I don't see anything indicating when the whole article was written. I hate that. It would seem Harvard thinks it's still valid since they have published it.

Here's a less specific article from 2014 which also includes information about the effects daily use has on teenage brains.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201403/heavy-marijuana-use-alters-teenage-brain-structure

Apparently they have linked casual use as well.

4/17/2014 by Best Best & Krieger LLP

Northwestern/Harvard Research on Effects of “Casual” Marijuana Use Points to Need for More Research

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/northwesternharvard-research-on-effects-45684/

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2014/04/casual-marijuana-use-linked-to-brain-abnormalities-in-students.html

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2013/12/marijuana-users-have-abnormal-brain-structure--poor-memory.html

http://discover.northwestern.edu/stories/marijuanas-effect-brain

Everything is bad for you. Let's ban all the things...

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/your-brain-on-sugar

Is sugar worse for you than, say, cocaine? According to a 2012 article in the journal Nature, it's a toxic substance that should be regulated like tobacco and alcohol. Researchers point to studies that show that too much sugar (both in the form of natural sucrose and high-fructose corn syrup) not only makes us fat, it also wreaks havoc on our liver, mucks up our metabolism, impairs brain function, and may leave us susceptible to heart disease, diabetes, even cancer

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/05/20/video-games-brain/#.VprjMTYjvzI

A small study has found that people who play action games on a regular basis may undergo brain changes associated with certain kinds of neurological and psychiatric disorders. If this linkage holds up under scrutiny, it could mean that gamers are putting their minds at risk.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18856_6-shocking-ways-tv-rewires-your-brain.html

Scientists tracked more than 1,000 29-month-old babies and their television habits and the effects of excess TV were downright startling -- even after researchers accounted for all the other factors that would explain differences in behavior. The more television a child watched as a toddler, the more likely it was that he'd be fat, bullied, bad at math, inactive and prone to misbehavior in the classroom.

Seriously, moderation. And criminalization is WAY more detrimental than the effects of marijuana.

Meanwhile, lots of studies out there about health benefits of cannabis too!

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/20-medical-benefits-marijuana-you-probably-never-knew.html

Brain structure abnormalities and disorders don't phase you? Interesting.

'The commonality I keep hearing on this thread is, the person has to
WANT to be helped. Well of course, really this goes without saying. But
as a parent, it's our job to step in when our gut feeling is saying that
things are not right here.'

Well put.

It's an act of love to notice that our daughter or son is in need.

It's an act of wisdom to offer this help without using control.

Can you go to see your daughter, in person, and communicate how you feel about the situation?

Why Do I Stay?

Snookums, the initial page you found is a student project from 1999, not a medical article "published by Harvard." http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/

the link between heavy marijuana use and schizophrenia in teens has been long investigated. One of the rationales for legalization is to reduce the amount of illicit dealers selling to children. Although post legalization teen use has remained steady in Colorado (not declined).

To the OP.... I went through something similar with the pot smoking and the bad boyfriend once. However, I was older than 19 and both my parents had died. I got out of that relationship as I learned it was so unhealthy for me. Now I am married and am with a wonderful strong man. I have had bouts of depression but found someone who doesn't and I think for me, that is important. However, that is just my story.

I hope you will see someone for yourself first. I would find a counselor that has good ratings. Once you go, if you do not like him/her then find another. I think it is the mostly healthy thing you can do. Right now you cannot control anything outside of your own emotions/stress/panic. Once you are able to sit down and talk with someone and get some feedback, learn to cope and deal with this stress you will be far better and clearer on making any decisions regarding your daughter.

I am sorry you are going through this. It must be very difficult and beyond stressful.

Please keep us posted ((hugs))

NPR update today on teen pot use and psychosis.Flaws in study finding no link between teen pot use and psychosis

"Snookums, the initial page you found is a student project from 1999, not a medical article "published by Harvard."http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/"

Robo, regardless of whether you think the students at Harvard are able to make a lick of sense or do good research, Harvard and other credible groups have, in fact, been involved in these studies. The links to serious brain and mental health problems noted in that article have been going on for a very long time - for a reason. They are valid and the research continues to confirm that. The warning signs are there and they are valid and credible in the eyes of very intelligent, highly educated people and organizations.

Pooh it all to your heart's desire but by the time people wait for the 100% proof they need, it will be too late for countless more people. That is something that happens all the time.

P.S.

Here is another article (published by the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the UK) that covers the gamut from physical and mental health to car accidents and addiction.

psych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabis.aspx

OP may not be following the thread anymore.

Yeah, I thought this thread ended.

Ended. Yet I don't know the end. Hope all is well!

If my kid smoked pot occasionally, I would not be too concerned, but not sure why this devolved into the pros and cons of pot, since the OP posted that it was much more than that!! Smoking pot, hanging out with a controlling boyfriend, and not being very motivated in school could be a temporary bad spell as a person adjusts to being on their own, or it could be signs of depression and a downward spiral. I teach college, and that combo would indicate depression to me. Each sign on their own, probably not, but all together, perhaps. What to do about it is another story. I have a friend who had a son who was in an abusive and inappropriate relationship for years, and also had trouble finishing college. It took him a long time. They kept communication open, had to stomach a lot of heartache as he made bad choices and suffered the consequences, had to set clear boundaries, tried to get him any help he would accept and use. He kicked around for quite a while but did graduate and eventually got out of the relationship. Some kids just take a little more time than others, their path is not as straight forward. Try to accept that this may be a more difficult path for your child, and steel yourself for being there however you can. There may be no quick fix, it may be a case for stoicism. But keep communicating and keep looking for openings for helpful suggestions, while keeping boundary issues and realism in mind. Kind of a middle road that is difficult to follow.

Oh, another one of my students went through almost this exact thing. She eventually dropped out of school for a while, but I got a nice note from her several years later that she had graduated from another school that she transferred to and got a job. So try and keep that perspective in mind, there is not always one ideal path that all kids need to go on, some take detours but get there in the end. They go through a rough patch, but find their way out!

" but not sure why this devolved into the pros and cons of pot, since the OP posted that it was much more than that!! Smoking pot, hanging out with a controlling boyfriend, and not being very motivated in school could be a temporary bad spell as a person adjusts to being on their own, or it could be signs of depression and a downward spiral. "

Marijuana is a depressant and it affects motivation.

The discussion shifted to pros & cons because some feel there is nothing to be concerned about if people smoke marijuana.

I would not be too concerned, but not sure why this devolved into the pros and cons of pot, since the OP posted that it was much more than that!!

Lpink, the OP hasn't been back since the day she started this thread. I don't see where she said it was much more than pot.

She said: "My 19 yr old daughter is doing drugs, marijuana I think and has been since she has been dating this loser of a boyfriend."

She did talk about a lot more than the pot.

She did talk about a lot more than the pot.

Would you mind sharing it? I can't find anything. This was the only other comment I found ... How do I know if it is just marijuana? Now I am scared it is something else. And that came after comments from other people here, suggesting it was more.

"She has always kind of struggled in school, but managed to do ok. I think that has affected her self esteem and that is where this is all coming from, she doesn't feel like she is as good as her friends. She only took 2 classes last fall, due to getting overwhelmed, we were ok with that, but didn't know all this was going on. I really think she is hung up on this guy and is trying to do whatever to keep him. She does seem depressed at times, but kind of goes back to her old self when she is with us. She didn't do any of this in high school, was a popular kid with lots of friends. I am sick, like I said, she doesn't seem to have any friends anymore."

"Yes, I will say I am more concerned about the changes in her behavior. He really seems to be isolating her and it scares me to death."

"She is the one that told me about the pot and that she is in her room with this guy all the time and pretty much doing nothing."

"Her self esteem seems to have dwindled, she doesn't even fix up herself very much. Just not like her at all. I have asked if she feels depressed, but she doesn't answer at all. "

I was referring to other drugs. Could find no mention.

They can not know what type of drugs their daughter is doing. She did say they know she is lying about things, regarding talks with her father. They saw online activities showing that.

I would hazard a guess that whether the OP comes back or not, her concerns are common concern for parents of young adults. Just from what I have seen working with them for the past 15 years and having been one myself. Lots of people go through the drug using/inappropriate boyfriend/mediocre school performance phase and come out OK. Lying to loved ones isn't relegated to young adults either. Sometimes these young adults realize that the drugs are affecting their grades and tone it down, they get their heart broken and they learn better, they flounder, change majors, drop out of school and work for a while, find their passion or realize they'd better knuckle down. Sometimes bad things happen--they move on to worse and addictive drugs, get pulled into crime, sexually transmitted diseases, get pregnant, end up living in a van down by the river (or their parents basement). I've seen it all. The tough thing for any parent is knowing how to help, knowing what can help, figuring out appropriate boundaries, or just plain sitting back and being OK with life playing out how it does for your adult child. An attitude of detached compassion can be cultivated.