The outside:

Cory

wow awesome info, ok where do i begin. it will be attached to my house with the ridge running away from my house (east to west). it will be like 15' wide and 25' long. ( I am planning on pouring a foundation and having brick up the first three feet, then the glass house on top of it. I would like an aluminum frame with double paned glass (let me know if double paned is a bad idea). it will have a opening and closing ridge vent. i plan on heating it with a propane fired air furnace. with a backup wood stove for emergency power outages

the ground will be bluestone pavers laid loose on the existing dirt, I haven't given much thought to cooling it in the summer though. I'm guessing I will need a big fan vent for the wall.

I'm picturing it looking something like this, but a little bigger

The Manor · More Info

I would like to have it so the citrus blooms and grows through the winter. what temp will I need for that? will I need supplementary lighting for that?

Will I be able to plant trees in the ground inside the greenhouse?

Awesome set up Corey it looks like you definitely have your systems dialed!

That is exactly what I would like to get but no one sells hard panels anymore it seems or they keep talking me out of them anyway.

Sean that style would be amazing but I think for that size you would be looking at $100K or so- maybe you knew that already- if so awesome! I have looked into those before and they are crazy expensive mainly because of the glass.

Nice idea :) I live in Serbia, its really cold here in winter. My citrus trees are with qails in small room. Its 10○C there. I am thinking about building something like that. Good luck, and greetings from Serbia...

what are the alternative to hard panels?

The poly plastic sheeting- so I guess it would be more of a cold frame than a true greenhouse but it seems most commercial operations out here use them. I'll have to ask why not get the hard poly panels when I talk to my guy next, I am getting one priced out now.

Sean, it is going to be a beauty! You might want to read up more on the orientation of the roof. I didn't have much choice on mine because of my lot, but I wish the long side faced a little more south to get more sun in the winter. You would think it being glass on all sides it would get lots of light but it does make a difference the angle it comes in through the roof. This is a good time to be watching how the light shines on your yard in the winter. It is amazing how shadows come from very far away. It does make a difference on how the light enters it. All glass looks very nice, but it may not be as energy efficient. In the summer you will need shadecloth, and the winter you may want a heat saving blanket as you are in a cold climate. You will not be able to look out with them on anyway. My sister has glass and it is beautiful but expensive to heat. Also, think about maintenace....you have to get up on the roof somehow to fix broken panes and also the caulking eventually needs redoing. Very hard to climb up without falling through! It is hard to even find someone who will climb up there to fix it for you, especially in the ice and snow. Sometimes people leave the sides glass and the roof with multi-wall pvc or whatever. Glass is very heavy too so I would think requires a stronger frame. Not trying to discourage you from glass though. You can insulate the north wall and put reflective surface or white paint on it. The energy saving are more than the light lose from making a solid north wall. You will be able to plant trees in the ground, but then you can't move them outside In summer which they seem to prefer in my experience. It gives them a chance to have the pests taken care of by natural predators. When determining the width, think about leaving enough space for aisles. Mine is 12 ft and It is hard to fit a center row or benches and still have space for 2 aisles to get through. I wish mine was a few feet wider. I have a gravel floor which is great for humidity, but when pots tip over it is hard to clean up the bark chips, aliflor, or soil. I have put down those interlocking rubber mats in the aisles and where I knock things over the most which helps on the cleanup. Otherwise I am fine with the bluestone gravel. You will need to consider a backup heat plan in case you have a problem with delivery of your propane supply. (Oops, sorry I missed the wood burning furnace backup on first reading). I know plenty of people that never thought they couldn't get a propane delivery. One friend's street was closed down for weeks last winter as the delivery trucks could not get down her street because of downed trees and wires. She had no electricity either. She lives in a city, not a rural area. I have 2 natural gas heaters and never thought both could go out at the same time, but it has happened a couple of times for me, so now I have an electric backup, but maybe I should have a propane backup also as electric is not so reliable in snowy places. I also have a freeze alarm in mine. It will call you if the temperature drops too low or it gets too hot in the summer, or if the electric power goes out. It will call up to 3 phone lines in case you are unable to answer or are on vacation. You can also call in to monitor the temperature and battery backup voltage. Best investment!!! Better than loosing all your plants which has also happened to me pre-alarm. There is a learning curve to operating a greenhouse and getting all the gadgets to work properly. If you want to keep your trees growing year round, the roots have to be at least 55°F, but most citrus can get to freezing and slightly below if just for a short time without killing them. I keep my greenhouse at 63°F minimum because I also grow warm growing orchids in my greenhouse. The trees like it and they also get their amount of chill hours below I think 68°F for a certain amount of hours. They will really grow well in the 70's but they will need a chill period to develop fruit. It all depends on what you want your trees to grow. I also keep my trees off the floor so their soil is warm. Also, bugs will be less at lower temperatures. They love to feed on the new young leaf growth, and they also breed better in the warm temperatures and lower humidity if the heat is running continuously. I am sure there are others here with larger greenhouses than mine and made of different materials. Also there are many Canadians that know how to deal with colder weather than I experience. But this is a start and I can add more as I think of things. You seem to have a good idea of what ypu want, but it is nice to be able to run things by others who may have experience from hard knocks. Best wishes! You will love it!

Cory

Your plants will not need any sunlight on the lower 3-4 feet of pot and lower trunk. That is the best thing you can do for stability in construction and maximum leaf room in Height.

My setup against the south wall with the rig on the house sloping away perpendicular to the solar angle at February 21

One other comment about why I decided to build my greenhouse stand alone. I figured if there was a fire, flood from a broken pipe, or other tragedy in the greenhouse, hopefully it would not affect my home. Also, I don't often use chemicals in my greenhouse, but maybe once in a while it might be needed for pest control. With the greenhouse away from my house any smell or contamination will not be in my home. Another thing; I was afraid of snow sliding off the roof of my house onto the roof of my greenhouse, the way my house roof is. Make sure you don't have that problem. People worry about having to go outside to get to their greenhouse, but I have not found that to be a probem. I do have to make sure the air intakes for the gas furnaces don't get covered by snow because the automatic pilots would shut down the furnaces and I have to keep the path from my house to the greenhouse shovelled, but that has not really been a problem.

Cory

I'm in prime citrus area and one of the reasons that I bought my house was the three rows of original citrus trees in my back yard. I now have 58 trees in the original orchard that I've saved and planted and in pots. In the winter here it just freezes, grass gets frozen with ice for a few hours on the normal cold nights. Daytime in the winter here generally gets up at least into the high 40s except for a few days each winter. More typical is to get up to the 60s or even 70s even if it froze at night. I'm telling you this so that you know it isn't important if your greenhouse gets down to freezing at night as long as the sun warms it up during the day.

Now the few nights that happen once a decade or so that get down to the low 20s, that does damage.

In my area only Poncirus grow outside on winter.

I have 3 tangerine trees outside. They have had one night where temperatures dropped and stayed below 25F for 13 hours with 7 hours down to 21F !( F and back to 21F with no damage. They saw 20F for an hour another day. Choosing the right cultivar and rootstock can pay off.

In my garden temperatures dropps to 0F and lower. I want to try to graft Fortunella on Poncirus and plant it outside.

It will probably be best to get the meiwa variety. You will have to look hard for one grafted to Poncirus. I would advise getting the full size Poncirus and not flying dragon. As far north as we are the weather will dwarf the Meiwa on PT as Flying dragon would dwarf the tree in Atlanta GA.

Last and most important is that both of us live to far cold (north) to plant any kumquat tree outside in ground with out a cold frame/Greenhouse. I did not heat mine which is against the south wall of my house. North wall of my greenhouse was 70F from house.

Poncirus Trifoliata is deciduous and store food energy in its root. Citrus roots are evergreen and store extra energy in the leaves and twigs above ground. Don't use any hybrids of Trifoliata they are evergreen and lack the food storage abilities of their pure PT parents

Poncirus trifoliata outside with leaves and without leaves. Happy new year.

All my PT are outside to. The graft unions will die on almost any citrus available at our temperatures

Are you have some pictures? Are you have evergreen PT's? Thanks

All my outdoor citrus trees.

Three leafless PT's in 5 gallon buckets.

I forgot one

Cuban Shaddock

outside in ground under glass

You have nice plants. I have 0 against you :( :)

The math on greenhouses.

The resistance (R) for heat to move from blowing air to a solid ------------R=0.16

The Resistance (R) for heat to move from still air to a solid-------------------R=0.58

These values are the same in the opposite direction as above cases.

The Resistance for heat to move through the solid sheet of transparency is R>0.00

Polly/glass/lexan 2 layer still air R=0.58+0.58(Film 1)+0.58+0.58(film 2)=2.32

Rigid transparent 2 layer wind R=0.16+0.58------------+0.58+0.58-----------=1.90

poly plastic sheeting both sheets wave in the wind R= 0.16+0.16+0.16+0.16=0.64

Windy day glass 2 layer R=1.91

Windy day lexan 2 layer R=1.91
Windy day plexi 2 layer R-1.91

Poly plastic sheeting 2 L R=0.64 Ouch $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

glass outside poly inside R=1.91

The air gap between the 2 layers adds R a little only if there is no wind or the outside surface panel or both panels are rigid.

If each window panel is 2 layer argon gas your R=2.91 Shop around for this $$$

If the north wall is insulated framing (R19) That cuts heat loss near 1/3