If your main/only reason for replacing is that the cabinet runs are shallower than standard, how shallow are they? We managed to get a real kitchen sink and a Bosch dishwasher in a 22 inch deep cabinet run (old house here too).

Sorry but your virtual room photo is not visible to me. Could you repost?

What an exciting project!

We really need a detailed floorplan with dimensions in order to help you out. Maybe that is all on the virtual room photo we can't see? You might want to search for the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First" discussion as it has a lot of tips on what we need to best help you and other things you should become familiar with to help you understand what goes into creating a functional space.

Personally, I think what is there looks fine for a rental. If you can make it work like crl_ has, I would just spruce it up and rent.

I would NOT soil that vintage kitchen with Lowe's, or any other mass produced boxes!

Re-build only what's necessary, perhaps just the sink run lowers, but definitely match existing. Or, as others have said, there are options for shallow lower counters...

I can sympathize. However, I would seriously reconsider a major renovation for a rental unit. There's just no way to recoup the expense through the rent and renters will frequently not take as good care of your property.

First, try to figure out who might rent your place and then target to that potential renter.

I would spruce it up:

Clean everything so it's shiny and smells good.

Repaint the walls with a more modern color, e.g. Sherwin Williams Agreeable Gray, Accessible Beige, BM Manchester Tan, etc. whatever goes with the counters and floor.

Add open shelves with baskets where those boards are now

Add an IKEA kitchen island next to that range. Forholla is the cheapest at 99.00 or get something similar.

Is there a way to add a range hood or maybe even an OTR microwave?

And maybe some IKEA Grundtal shelves above if you're generous.

Also a shelf next to the range for a microwave, like above the cart/island

Move the fridge more into the corner and add a wine rack above if you're feeling generous.

If the blinds are in good condition, leave them. If not, get some from IKEA (they have new cheap honeycomb blinds).

Maybe add a new kitchen faucet.

Style with some black and white art (Paris is good :), some herbal pots in the window, and an inexpensive IKEA runner.

If the fridge is in bad condition, consider painting with black chalkboard paint.

A few possibilities to consider:

1..Is it possible to somehow relocate the refrigerator to the pantry?
In renovating small four-square I stuck a too-large-for-the-space refrigerator into what had been a pantry off an adjacent hallway. It sounds really awkward but it works. The counter to the left of the sink is the landing space for the hidden refrigerator. (For reference, the girl in the red jacket is looking out the window above the sink.) Two sets of tenants have found this set up quite workable.

2. Since you do not need a huge set of cabinets, it might be worth your while to try craigslist, which is where nearly everything in this kitchen came from. Even if we had had the money for all new cabinets, my experience is that tenants vary considerably in how they treat cabinetry. I.e., 'Did you hear the one about the dog that chewed up the bottom drawer where his snacks were kept?"

The house looks wonderful. Congratulations.

Even with good

Will try again to post photo from Lowes

Thanks for all your feedback. I agree that I don't want to do a major renovation if at all possible and as I said my original plan was to cut out a portion of the cabinets (i.e. where the missing drawer is) and put a dishwasher there, add some shelves or whatever to the inside of the lower cabinets (they are pretty much all empty boxes with no box floor) and change the counter and sink (counter is ugly and sink is bar-sized, literally). I know I don't have to do this but I really can't imagine having to deal with a bar-sized kitchen sink, tenant or not. While we don't want to do a complete renovation, we still want to treat the house well, if that makes sense. I was told because the cabinets are shallower and lower, this plan basically would be impossible. I would definitely love to hear from people who have worked with lower and shallower cabinets when it comes to sinks and dishwashers for options?????!!!

Regarding the refrigerator, if we move it into the corner, we would be blocking the doorway to the back hallway (more cabinets), and back staircase. This photo below is more the layout as it is right now, and has dimensions so you can see what I mean. The photo above from Lowe's is what I got to playing around on their virtual designer. The window is fabulous and I would never want to block a window but it would have been easier to have it elsewhere! You can't put any sort of fridge in the pantry - far too narrow. I suppose you could put it in the back hallway area but that is really far away from the sink/counter/stove, etc. The tenant who lived on the second floor before we bought the house had moved the fridge next to the stove and put a large art poster on the wall where the fridge is now with a small cafe-type table with 2 chairs. It looked terrific and I initially thought that's what I would do but then realized not having any place to put things next to the stove is a real pain in the butt. I'm also open to feedback about that part, though! I don't cook all that often but I enjoy it and hope to do more of it. I'm coming from an apartment that had a very small u-shaped kitchen as part of an open floor plan where everything was almost literally in arm's reach. I think the dimensions are slightly off in this drawing regarding the length of the room - if you put the refrigerator right next to the stove, they just fit in that space (the drawing I think makes it look like there is more space there than there is).

How many people would live in this place, i.e. for how many is the kitchen?

How deep are the cabinets on the sink wall? And how much height? There are dishwashers that are 22" deep (18" wide, which might be big enough). Is that too deep?

If you put the fridge next to the range, would there be space for an island on casters, right in the middle of the kitchen?

Or, how much space is there for the fridge if you put it in the corner, i.e. would a shallow fridge work?

You really need the exact dimensions of the existing sink run of cabinets to be able to tell what can work. Just shallower and lower is not enough information. As I said above we got a Bosch (800 series) to fit into a 22 inch deep cabinet run. If yours is even less than 22 inches, I'm not aware of a dishwasher that will fit, but maybe I missed one somehow. An ADA model dishwasher might help with the lower problem as I believe they are shorter than standard.

As far as sinks go, I opted for a kohler stages 45 (which is huge, but a fairly standard back to front measurement) and placed my faucets on the sides of the sink. (Sorry for the dark picture, hopefully it is good enough to illustrate.)

Other options i considered included bumping out just the sink cabinet, a wall mount faucet (doesn't look like you have enough wall space behind your sink, but I could be wrong--measure and check wall mount faucets' installation instructions), or a fireclay farm house sink (some are as little as 18 inches front to back I think) to leave room behind for a faucet. Farmhouse sinks are often installed protruding an inch or two from the cabinet so if you have 22 inches and install it out two inches I think that gives you 6 inches to fit a faucet in--you see what I mean about needing the actual measurements. I'm guessing you'd have to modify your sink cabinet to support a farmhouse sink.

What is around the kitchen? What is the "southern" part of the kitchen used for? Seating? Other? It's hard to give you the best advice without knowing what the rest of the floorplan looks like, what rooms are where, how they relate to each other, etc. My ideas below (re insetting fridge into wall). If that won't work, then I'd put the fridge next to range and use the rolling work table as previously suggested.

I am not sure what you mean by "empty boxes with no box floor." Is the bottom of the cabinets the floor? If so, that would be a deal breaker for me as a potential renter.

Who are your potential renters and your competition? The answers to those questions should help determine what you need to do.

I would not be wed to old cabinets just because they are old...especially in a kitchen; but cost versus renter damage is a major consideration. I would haunt Craigslist or do you have any carpentry skills? Making cabinet boxes does not look that difficult if you have acces to the tools needed. Doors look difficult to me but can be purchased ready-made...or would your doors work...maybe stripped if needed. How many coats of paint and how misaligned are the doors? The possibility of lead paint around dishes and food would give me pause if I was a potential renter but that is me.

Lead paint never hurt anybody unless you eat it. So don't chew the cabinets and you'll be fine.

OP said they are putting shelves and "floors" into the base cabinets.

As a landlord, I would do the work to make the current cabinets work and look nice and call it good. Or buy either one of the more inexpensive lines from Ikea or the unfinished cabinets off the back wall at HD and finish them myself (paint or stain). Unless you live in a high-end enough area where even rentals have better quality finishes. If so, you may need to do more to attract a renter. The answer really depends on your rental market.

OK - I'll try to respond to the questions / responses as best I can. The run of cabinets where the sink is are 22 inches deep, maybe 21.5 because there is a bit of molding near the top. The height is 33 inches from floor to top of cabinets, not counting counter. Yes, I did mean the cabinets are empty, floorless boxes. The floor of the cabinets is the original hardwood floor of the room - unfortunately the room itself has several layers of flooring over that. The previous owner just put the current (bland, ugly) beige tile in so even though I don't like it, it's staying. If it's possible to keep the cabinets I was envisioning installing a floor and shelves or drawers. This sounds like it still would be cheaper than ripping them out and starting over, although I would definitely have to hire someone to do that, so maybe not?? . . . I was thinking of stripping the paint and staining and I haven't ruled that out.

The "south" part of the room is empty of furniture, though I think the layout drawing does make it "longer" than it really is by a bit. Next to the refrigerator in the corner we currently have one of those metal shelving units and that's it. On the wall opposite from the sink there is a doorway (no door) which leads to a back hallway area (which has a built-in wall cabinet, stained not painted, and is presently being used for storing tools, extra stuff and cat litter boxes) and the door to the back staircase. The other door on that wall goes to our bedroom. On the wall that has the stove, if you are facing it, to the left there is the door to the pantry, longish, oddly L shaped but narrow. On the right, is the doorway (no door) to the butler's pantry (built-in lower and upper, glass-fronted cabinets on left, lower cabinets and window on the right. You walk through that, through a swinging door to the dining room (technically 1/2 of a double parlor), through that is the living room (pocket doors divide the rooms but they need a little work). Every room except bathroom has at least 2 ways in and out; dining and living room have 3. From the dining room you can also go to small hallway, from there bedroom, bathroom and 2nd bedroom we're calling the office. The kitchen I guess could be used as an eat in but it would limit transit through the room and there is no point with the dining room.

This apartment had been rented until we bought it, with empty cabinets that had no hardware, no dishwasher, etc. I'm not worried about finding tenants. I would like to find good tenants (I realize there are no guarantees) and if I make the kitchen a bit nicer I think that would attract more people, who might want to stay a bit, as opposed to college students, etc.

I'm not worried about lead paint. The house was de-leaded by the previous owner. My theory is that contributed to him selling the house before finishing the rehab because he had to lay out a lot of money for that unexpectedly (child who lived here had high levels, state inspected, etc.).

I plan to look into the shallower dishwashers because if that's an option it might tip the scales in favor of not ripping the cabinets out.

Funky camper - I hadn't seen your teeny notes on the layout. On the other side of that wall is the outside world - yard, city. If you look at the first and second pics at the top, you'll see there is an enormous wall cabinet perpendicular to the sink cabinets and then overhanging them. That is in good shape and staying. My original thought was to try to make that corner of base cabinets into an L because that space underneath seems sort of wasted, but then decided I would try to keep it simple for the rental. Plus I never figured out how to make it work on those virtual designers with regular cabinets so I think that's where custom work might come in (for our kitchen upstairs- next project).

I did check out the websites for the Euro dishwashers and Bosch in particular listed minimum box dimensions so even though the DW is 22" or a bit less, it still says you need 24" depth. Is there a reason it can't be right up against the wall? For those of you who have used those dishwashers with 22" depth cabinets, how far out did the appliance stick out? If it's just a bit I don't think that would bother me, especially since the counter will overhang a bit anyway . . . Thanks!

"... I would like to find good tenants...and if I make the kitchen a bit nicer I think that would attract more people, who might want to stay a bit, as opposed to college students, etc...."

If you're looking for longer term and, maybe, more responsible renters, then you need to do something about that Kitchen. To be honest, I would not rent with a Kitchen like that unless I was desperate - and then I would be looking for someplace else to move to as soon as I could afford and/or find it.

I know people are telling you to go cheap in the renovation, but keep in mind that going cheap probably means not getting the renters you prefer.

I think you do need to replace the cabinets and I would not put the refrigerator next to the range. IKEA cabinets are relatively inexpensive - I think when you weigh the cost of the cabinets against the time and effort of trying to cram a DW & decent sink in the existing cabinets, fixing/replacing doors & drawer fronts, and trying to add a "floor" to the cabinets, the IKEA cabinets will probably win. IKEA cabinets are made for DIY, so I strongly urge you to consider something like them.

BTW...smaller DWs are generally much more expensive than standard.

Oh, and those aren't cabinets as we think of them today, that's one big box with openings here and there. The back wall of the "box" is probably the wall of the house.

Is that floorplan to-scale? I'm asking b/c it does not appear to be, based on the pictures. E.g., the wall the refrigerator & rack are against is deeper than the few inches you show - assuming that's the wall on the bottom.

Rather than trying to use whatever it is you're using, I suggest getting out graph paper (you can download some from the web) and drawing it up by hand:

• Measure & label each wall/window/door/doorway & the distances b/w each wall/window/door/doorway. (Make the scale something easy to read - like 1 box per foot or 1 box per 6".) Include the trim in the window & door measurements.

• Then, take a picture of it and post it here.

• Finally, please post a bigger picture of it!

.

I think the tenant question is largely related to the market you are in. What kind of kitchens, etc does your competition have? If you need new cabinets to attract tenants, that's one thing. But if you are getting them solely because a dishwasher and sink won't fit, then investigating your options makes sense.

Our old cabinets were 22 inches deep and we managed to squeeze in a Bosch 800 series dishwasher. I think that's the shallowest you will find, though I have heard the asko also works in less than standard depth cabinets? Ours stuck out a tiny bit. I don't think anyone but me ever really noticed. I don't know about the height measurement.

Ikea cabinets are awesome for DIY. But if you can't build bottoms for the existing cabinets etc DIY, then you probably can't install IKEA cabinets DIY either. I can assemble IKEA cabinets but I wouldn't want to tackle installing them, nor would I be able to build floors and shelves and such for the existing cabinets. I think those are more or less equivalent on the skill level.

I redid the kitchen in a rental house we own. The sub-floor was damaged due to a plumbing drain leak, and needed to be replaced, which necessitated removing everything above the sub-floor. The old cabinets were built-in-place as yours appear to be, and there was no way to remove the lower cabinets without destroying them.

My guiding principle for the remodel was: Its OK for it to be cheap (inexpensive), so long as it doesn't look cheap. The "new" cabinets were good quality used cabinets that a friend gave to us. The appliances were all used. The much improved layout owes thanks to the fine folks here in the Kitchen Forum.

Buehl notes that:

> BTW...smaller DWs are generally much more expensive than standard.

I would add that smaller DWs are also nearly impossible to find used, so a smaller, new dishwasher is much, much more expensive than a standard-sized, used dishwasher.

Before:

After:

Quick search yielded an 18" dishwasher at HD for 359.00.

Potential tenants other than students: Single faculty member, young professional?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SPT-18-in-Built-In-Dishwasher-in-Stainless-Steel-SD-9252SS/206115251

Cut-Out Front to Back Width (in.)

22.1

Dishwasher Size

18 In.

Cut-Out Height (in.)

32.2

Also, how many layers of floor are there? If you removed the current floor (what material is it???) is there a way to uncover the hardwood and also that the counters would be higher?

I would not start trying to remove the paint and stain the cabinets. The other consideration is if there's a pantry and a butler's pantry, you really don't need additional storage.

If you moved the fridge next to the range, would you have space for a movable island to put hot pots, pans?

It really does depend on your rental market. Investigate that fully before deciding on what to do. In my market, a complete kitchen would not result in one cent higher rent. Especially in a duplex situation. DH was convinced that remodeling one of our rentals would result in much higher rent and, thus, improve our cash flow. DH was wrong. A two-year remodeling project, costing thousands, hours and hours of work as it was all DIY, plus two years lost rent has resulted in a grand total of $100 more a month in rent. Totally due to our depressed market, LCOA, and job losses in our area. To be fair to DH, a huge percentage of the jobs lost were recent, after we had already gutted the house and, if that had not occurred, he probably would have been right

So, yes, know your market and local economic projections before making any major decisions on this project.

Same here, and I'm in a HCOL area.

Yeah, I'm in a hcola too and for the most part around here rent is related to location and number of bedrooms. Number of baths also plays into it some. As long as the kitchen is functional and clean I don't think it makes much difference how nice it is. This is an extremely tight rental market though with multiple tenants usually applying for any given unit. And many jurisdictions in my area have rent control so long term tenants (and little to no updating of a unit during tenancy) are not uncommon. Your local market conditions may be very very different.

From one of the drool worthy Paris pied a terres.

a+b kasha · More Info

I would repair the cabinets and spend the money replacing the counter tops. Nothing looks worse/ more out of place than granite countertops in an old house. I would have a matching cabinet built to go next to the stove to add some counter/ prep space and make it more visually anchored and substantial. I would leave the cabinets painted since it's a rental.

You may decide that you don't want to be landlords forever and want to sell someday. At least in this neighborhood (historic, our home is also 1914,) houses with "modernized" kitchens are a hard sell. The one next door to us has been on the market 89 days with only 6 showings and no offers- no one likes the "updated" kitchen and baths.