Kitchen layout: solve this impossible equation
Comments (29)
rantontoo
8 years ago
bpath
8 years agoRelated Discussions
Holy 70s, Batman! Help with condo kitchen layout please!
Comments (46)So. The guys finished up their part yesterday and now it's up to me to do the rest. Their work looks pretty good if you don't look real hard at all the details (which I am going to stop doing in a day or two, I hope, since done is done). These are Applad cabinets from IKEA (semi-gloss white--love them!) and their solid beech butcherblock Numerar counters. The sink is a big honking 16-guage near-zero radius corner Vigo from the O site, faucet from IKEA. The shelf was ripped from one 8' Numerar counter and installed on 10" corner brackets from the hardware store which were screwed into studs every 2 feet. I'd originally gotten some of those posts where you have to drill holes into the shelf edge and slip it onto the posts but they weren't sturdy enough for an 11" deep 1.5" thick solid hardwood shelf that will have cast iron pots on it---so I switched to this method (thanks to my daughter for finding it online!). It is STRONG. The parts that show on the wall under the shelf will be patched and tiled over. The undersides of the shelf were routed out so that the bracket is recessed--will see about patching that over with thin strips cut from leftover butcherblock using a circular saw. They also routed out a channel for the LED tape lights (again, thanks to Yllimuh!) so you can't see the tape unless you crane your neck under there which I do not intend to do ever. LOVE the LEDs. The outlets with the transformers are inside cabinets at the ends and they fished the wire through the wall on the side with no uppers. Still waiting for the appliance people to come back and install the DW and slide-in range, which I hope will happen in the next few days. I paid them for installation months ago but it had to wait until now. I am going to get the IKEA "Bursta" table in the 32" square size (with two pullout leaves which i think make it about 60" long?) and keep it pushed up against the wall most of the time with 2-3 chairs around it. It can be moved into the living room if I ever want to have 4+ people at a sit-down meal. Or just pulled out into the kitchen a bit. It'd be cramped in there but it would only be for rare occasions so it's fine with me. I think I'm going to repaint the walls. They are a very pale gray but I think they'll look better the same color as the ceiling and soffits. There are too many planes in there to have different colors going on, even subtle ones. Oh, also, I skim coated the sand textured walls (except for the vertical parts of the soffits) by rolling on thinned joint compound with a paint roller (!) and squeegeeing it smooth with a Magic Trowel (!!!!). It worked amazingly well and was much easier than the conventional skim coating method! It took only 2 coats. I also bought a drywall sander Shop-vac attachment for $25 on Amazon--WAY worth it to not have to drape the doorways and clean up dust off everything for weeks afterward. It vacuumed literally all the dust as I sanded. I didn't even wear a mask. Amazing. Overhead light only LED lighting only from the other end of the room looking at the opposite side - 24"W fridge goes in the first tall empty space and the end unit is a 24" wide pullout pantry...See MoreLayout--reformatting LR as kitchen?
Comments (35)Hello again... I am still plugging away at this silly old house :) So I did go see Sarah Susanka last week, and it was really wonderful! I just agree so much with her thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. I came home with a renewed desire to REALLY try to make our current space work for our family, without adding on, at least on the main floor. I am also taking my husband to see her model home this weekend, so he can get a better understanding of some of her ideas--some of it is just a "feeling" you get from being in the space, rather than an idea that shows up on the floorplan, or "map" of the space... Anyway, my latest idea is to move my driveway entrance door and basement stairs to the back of the house. I see many advantages to doing this: ~ creates a rear entrance/family-foyer space at our primary entrance spot (I was greatly inspired by Mom23E's recent post on this and the ideas people shared...) ~ stairs down to basement here gives up access to an large unused space in our basement, under the kitchen, that used to be a laundry room, so has utility sink. Could be a great mudroom spot--lockers for sports gear, winter gear, school bags, etc. ~ moving the basement access from current location allows me to merge my kitchen/dining rooms, possibly even combining them? I do like having a formal DR, but we don't use it regularly, although we do have big family parties here, so it does get used, and when it does, it's the big table with both leaves in it, so I still need the space, but not an entire room. ~ sliding the kitchen toward the DR also makes the kitchen at an even level with the rest of the house, making it a bit less cut-off than it currently is. ~ I really do not want the basement stairs underneath our UP stairs b/c that will put the stairs right in the middle of our basement finished rec room area. If they instead go down under the current kitchen, it will give us good access to that space under the kitchen, which currently in unused also in part, b/c it is cut-off by the current location of the basement steps. ~I am a little afraid of losing all my light and windows and view of my backyard which I currently have in my kitchen. I can easily watch my little kids playing in the backyard, and I'd like to keep some of that view, if at all possible. But it is not by biggest priority. So, that leads me to my question? How can I BEST use this space? I'm especially caught up in how to configure the rear-entrance/basement steps/landing/dropzone area. What we currently have is a door at the ground level, then we go up 4 steps into the kitchen. Can I just replicate this in the back? I like it b/c it make sit seems easier to run down to the mudroom or up to the kitchen, as opposed to going up a few steps on the outside, then into the house, but having to go down a full flight of stairs to the mudroom (if that makes sense!) But no matter how we do it, the area where the down stairs are will be dead-space on the main level, for the most part, so that is important to consider. Anyway, I will put the blank floorplans here, and if anyone has any ideas, suggestions, photos, etc, I would greatly appreciate it. We are meeting with a new architect, who I met at the Susanka workshop last week, so I am hopeful! Here is the space, blank: Here was one idea I had, but it doesn't effectively deal with the basement steps. I need help :) I think the kitchen/dining room could be opened up more, combined, but still maintain the space in the DR for a big table. That wall isn't structural so could come out completely. Is it possible to reconfigure this space in the way I am imagining? It is, right???...See MoreThose darn corners - Please help with my awkward kitchen layout!
Comments (8)Thanks, everyone, for your ideas so far! Stan Z - Nixing the upper corner cab is an interesting idea! I love the balance it would bring to that wall. I'm just not sure if I would be able to reach everything, and I'm paranoid about not having enough storage (especially if the W/D goes in the "pantry"). Do you think it would look better if I put another upper cabinet to the right of the stove (instead of open shelves) to balance that out? If I end up with the second design (corner Susan and larger 24" to the right of the stove) I was planning on putting an upper there. I've definitely gone back and forth on the peninsula thing... but we're pretty set on keeping a separate dining room. desertsteph - sorry about the measurements on the floorplan not showing up well! I didn't realize the image would post so small. I will simplify the drawing so it's easier to read once I get home. The curved line is a door (in my terrible drafting skills). Those are the stairs to the second floor, and the stairs to the basement are underneath it (enter through the dining room). I just included that to show that the flow of traffic is going in that direction. The kitchen originally had the opening on the other side, but I think it makes more sense to direct the traffic on that side. No bathroom on the first floor, unfortunately, but we have a street level walkout basement with another bathroom. There really isn't space for one on the first floor, and probably less than half the houses in the neighborhood have added one, so I'm not too worried about it. mgmum - Switching the DW and sink is a definite possibility. I thought if I kept the bar seating there I thought it would be better to have the dishwasher next to it instead of the sink (since we probably wouldn't be loading the dishwasher while someone is there, but we might be working at the sink). Maybe that's just not true, though. That is an exterior wall by the bar - it's a garden window looking out at the patio (the shape in the mockup is correct but I couldn't figure out how to make the panes see through). buehl - I'm open to the sink going somewhere other than by the window... it just seems like the most obvious place that people think is "correct". I've never had a dishwasher so I keep thinking in terms of my old paradigm. It's going to be an adjustment (the good kind!). Honestly the window doesn't have a great view - it looks at the brick wall of the house across the street. I'm more concerned about the dishwasher door or sink being too close to the breakfast bar if someone is sitting there and snacking or chatting with the cook. At first I was being stubborn about the blind corner, but once I realized it might not fit into the design, I began to think that a corner Susan would be better anyway. I'm kind of the same size as a small child, but that sounds like a royal pain to deal with. I think I just got dazzled by the fancy pullout at Ikea! Maybe it's better to void the corner to fix the issue of the stove and sink being too close. I'll take another look at what that would look like. mama goose_gw zn6OH - Yes, that window is pre-existing. It's actually not a pass through and doesn't even open except a little vent at the top! It's not the highest quality window but I don't mind it and would probably prefer to change it out later down the road to save some money. It does seem like one of those "while you're at it" things, though... it's probably more cost effective to do everything at once if I can scrape up some more. I do like your U shape design a lot, but I was reeeeeally hoping to put some seating in the kitchen since the dining room is separate. Good point about the fridge - for some reason I was thinking it would stick out enough (though it definitely doesn't the way I drew it) or we would put a filler piece there to allow it to open. I'll have to double check on that. lavender_lass - You just said the magic word! I blew my bathroom budget by a mile because I went on a tiling spree... but I'll probably wait to tile the kitchen and DIY it later on, so that might make it feasible. I do love those feature tile walls in a kitchen! Is the breakfast bar what's screwing me up here? Do I need to give up that dream?? Would people think I made a giant mistake if the sink is still under the window but not centered? I could tell that idea gave my contractor a twitch when I brought it up!...See Moreimpossible kitchen layout! - need ideas
Comments (24)As Espofford noted in his initial post, the larger room has a lot of obstacles to a functional layout. These issues combined with the constraints on the space (no windows/walls/doorways can change) makes the room even more difficult to place a kitchen. With roommates, it becomes even more important to create a space that is usable for more than one person - even if it's just to make breakfast in the morning or make a sandwich on the weekend. Trying to cram everything into the larger room will make it almost impossible for more than one person to work in the kitchen at the same time. BTW...I wouldn't go with small appliances if there are three men living there! . When you add roommates to equation, Sena's layout makes even more sense - although I might consider a hybrid of the MamaGoose's Cleanup Zone and the rest of Sena's layout. One change I'd make to the smaller room is to move the sink toward the center to create two Prep Zones, one on either side of the prep sink to allow two people to work in that space. Something like this: Layout #2: You have, potentially, three Prep Zones - the two main ones in the smaller/lower Kitchen and a secondary one in the larger/upper Kitchen. The secondary would only be available if no one is cleaning up or unloading the DW. I know the prep sink in the lower Kitchen is in front of the wall somewhat, but you will probably be working mostly to either side of the sink - which puts you in front of the windows. There is quite a bit of base cab storage in the lower Kitchen and some upper cabinet storage. To the left of the range hood, there is a 6" filler pullout. This pullout could hold spices and other cooking aids. The Cleanup Zone is in the upper Kitchen with plenty of dish storage in upper cabinets. It's light on base cabinets, but you do have a 36" wide x 27" deep cabinet in the Snack Center. Speaking of the Snack Center, it contains the MW. The counters and upper & lower cabinets are all 3" deeper than standard to increase storage and workspace as well as give you more room for the MW that's hanging from the upper cabinet. You may want to invest in a rolling cart to transfer items from the refrigerator and pantries to the lower Kitchen. You could store it in the corner in the lower Kitchen when it's not in use. There is a pullout Utility cab to the left of the refrigerator for broom, dustpan, etc. There are two pantries. You could add a third in the lower Kitchen where I show the rolling cart - then you could each have your own pantry! If you do decide to add a third, I suggest something freestanding so it can be removed when you're preparing the house for sale in a few years. This layout keeps your aisles wider to accommodate traffic through the Kitchens, especially the upper Kitchen. Since this is the path to/from the bathroom, basement, and driveway, you should keep the path wide enough to accommodate bringing large items or even bags of groceries without bumping into cabinets/counters or even people working in the Kitchen! [Upper cabinet filler pullout example: https://www.rev-a-shelf.com/p-252-filler-pullout-organizer-with-wood-adjustable-shelves-wall-accessories.aspx] . Layout #2 Zone Map: . . "I want to move to the bigger room as its bigger, hvac controlled and has basement access underneath for plumbing/electrical" If the kitchen is in the smaller room currently, then you must already have water & electricity in that room. How has it functioned as a Kitchen all these years if you have no heat? Philadelphia isn't exactly warm in the winter (it's not like places farther north, but it still gets cold there - my DH is from Philly and most of his family still lives there. I'm from snowy Western NY - the south towns, so I know how cold winters can get!) Where is the current sink located?...See More
mama goose_gw zn6OH
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoHere's an idea that keeps the sink in its current location, using
standard, less expensive appliances. There is a framed wall behind the fridge,
with cabinets slid in to fill the gaps, and a back panel covering the
back of the cabinets and slide-in range. The electric could be run to the fridge through the wall above the window/pass through. It looks like there's a 220 plug on the wall on the right--maybe that could be run through the wall, and through the cabinet beside the range, or through the toekick area. (I have no idea if that meets safety code--you might want to check that.) If no one will be doing a lot of cooking, you could have a MW drawer, a couple of induction hot plates, and countertop oven instead of the range. Shallow shelves beside the overhang could hold paperback books, DVDs, extra canned goods, etc.If you need a few more inches in the aisle, you could use bathroom cabinets on the sink wall--they are not as deep as standard kitchen cabinets. Using open shelves beside the window would keep a more open feel, and guests could see where dishes are stored.
funkycamper
8 years agofunkycamper
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agobpath
8 years agorantontoo
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agorantontoo
8 years agoMizLizzie
8 years ago
lisa_a
8 years agoI'm with MizLizzie. I think you need to go with apartment sized appliances: 24" fridge (the one she linked to is nice), 24" sink cab and a 24" range. It's too small a space to use standard size appliances, especially if it's likely to be for guests and possibly a college student or two.
I started designing a kitchen but then I realized that until I knew how the living area would play out and how it would affect the kitchen area, I couldn't really finish the kitchen. So I took a stab at the whole space. Here's what I came up with:
I opted for an apartment sized sofa (68" long, 36" deep) and a coffee table that lifts to convert into a dining table. There are some spendy ones on the market but you may be able to find something for a reasonable price. Friends have a coffee table that raises up so you can sit on the couch to eat. They bought it at a mass retail furniture store and it was very reasonable.
Anyhoo, this piece of furniture will do double-duty (although if you really do rent to college students, it's a good bent that they will eat on the couch). I added 2 upholstered dining chairs to the seating area. I suggest you fill much of the long wall with built-in storage with room for a flat screen TV.
Now that I've designed space in the living area for eating, I could devote more space in the kitchen to storage, which is in short supply. Instead of a seating overhang behind the range, I added 9" d, 42" tall cab storage. I didn't want to make it any deeper than that so as not to crowd the doorway (is it really only 24" wide?).
I did not center the 24" range on the peninsula, opting to put a little more on one side than the other and to accommodate IKEA cab sizes. I strongly suggest you add an island hood for the range, especially if this will be a gas range (good idea to get combustion gases out). It will also help keep the walls, carpeting, etc, cleaner since the hood will remove grease and food smells.
The cab on the backside of the peninsula will have to be an IKEA hack (cabs aren't shallower than 15").
I added between stud storage on the interior wall. You can do closed door storage like this:
100 Square Foot Kitchen Remodel · More InfoOr open storage like this:
Saddle Butte · More InfoThe advantage of open storage is that you won't have to watch door clearances between it and the adjacent cabs.
There is one upper in the kitchen but I added open shelving across the window for more storage. IKEA has 9" deep wall shelves.
Kitchen · More InfoDo you know about toe kick drawers to boost storage? A boon for small spaces.
An Elegantly Functional Kitchen in Durham · More InfoWell, there's my idea for you. HTH!
If you haven't already, I think you should check out Sarah Susanka's books on small home living. Lots of good ideas that would help this small apt live larger than it is. It would be money well invested if you live in an area where rents are high.
lisa_a
8 years agobpath
8 years ago
lazy_gardens
8 years agolisa_a
8 years agoSo this space only needs to be kitchen and dining area? That changes things. I thought this was the entire living area.I would do 15" deep IKEA pantry cabs on one wall and a banquette bench with drawers on the opposite wall. That will allow room for a 24" bench with a 42" wide table (overlaps bench by 4") with plenty of seating for eating, coffee, working on a laptop, etc. and a 43" aisle between table and pantry cabs. I generally spec 24" depth for a bench to allow enough depth for a padded, slanted back for comfortable seating.
You could even add shallow cabs at each end of the bench as shown below. As long as they are shallower than the bench, guests will still be able to easily slide on and off the bench.
Bluebell, PA traditional · More InfoOr you could do a hardback and add throw pillows for cushioning.
Traditional Kitchen · More Infolisa_a
8 years agolisa_a
8 years agoWhoa, you have your work cut out for you! I know some places are extreme about permits and inspections but I think I'd be happy somewhere in the middle, knowing someone was checking to make sure I hadn't overlooked something. But if it works for you, great.
What is your ultimate goal with this apartment? Do you intend to rent it out sometime in the future? If so, then I think fixing the lay-out beyond the kitchen area would help it rent easily and quickly and for a good price, especially because it's a good sized unit.
Perhaps something like this (very rough drawing):
I swapped the location of living room and bedroom 1, removed a wall (fixes the narrow doorway to hallway problem), moved the locations for doors for the bathroom and bedroom #2 and added a storage closet. I'm not sure how the bathroom is laid out but hopefully this doesn't necessitate much in the way of plumbing changes.
This creates a connected kitchen, dining room and living room with better options for creating a decent kitchen. I'm still spec'ing a 24" w fridge but you could do a 30" range instead of a 24" range, plus it's cheaper to vent against a wall than over a peninsula. You could eve do a OTR range (over the range). The island would be 21" deep and about 55" long. Sink stays where it is but you'd have elbow room to the left of the sink with this option. I did a quick calc and it should all be doable with IKEA cabs so that helps keep the cost of the kitchen down. You can also use IKEA cabs for the TV/bookcase units in the LR.
Anyhoo, just throwing this out there for you to ponder.
funkycamper
8 years ago
rebunky
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoOh boy! I can certainly relate to this one!
We just completely gutted a small cabin which was almost as bad as yours. It was so bad, we were afraid we would fall through the floor just walking thru due to the termite damage. Although, mine was pretty bad, I think you may have us beat! ;-)
If you look up my name, I think you should find my thread. I will try to find the photo of my "before" somewhere.
We aren't even close to being done at this point. It may take many months or possibly many years, (praying not) since we are building as we earn the $$$$....
But, thanks to GW, I have a layout! I commend you for finding GW and for taking on this DIY project yourself, seeing the potential.
I tried to read through your thread. I may have missed something. I never really got the impression that you wanted to rent this place out for money. Although, that doesn't really matter so much...either way...
Even if it is only for friends, relatives, casual company, or maybe your own college aged kids or grandkids to use, I am sure you will want to build it to code for their safety.
I understand that you are dealing with crap that you didn't do! You bought it "as is". My husband is a GC, so I have that advantage in our situation. I do think, with some help, you can still work with it.
The plus is later on, if you fix it correctly at this point, it could become a great rental income for you someday in the future.
That's pretty crazy thinking about that conversation you had with the building inspector. Wow, if I am understanding, they basically came out and said, "just do whatever you want and don't you make me come back out here!"
Well, I'd be like... don't worry... I won't! I'm picturing a lil' bit threatening scenio here, Maybe I'm reading into things??? Ha!
That said...and with your situation in mind, I must say...
Lisa: you are awesome!
That was my intitial thought. Although, I have to admit, I question myself constantly. Lately, I pretty much do not trust my brain. It's fried! But, switching the bedroom and living room was my gut reaction, so that gives me hope!
goodstuf73: Lisa could take this up as a profession. She only does this for her relaxing TKO layoutoholic good fun, but seriously she is on it!
Do you know what the load bearing wall is? I think it might be that one we would like to partially remove? Oh goodness...I'm not sure...but this?
I will definitely have to ask my dh, (his brain is fully functioning FYI!)
But just for fun...before I ask him...
Pictures please! They really help.
Is the garage under that front 40' long side you show in your drawing?
lisa_a
8 years agoWow, you *really* do have your work cut out for you! But it's going to be incredible when you're done.
So the bathroom door can't move but the wall could come down. How about this instead?
It accomplishes pretty much the same thing: a little more length in the kitchen.
btw, I'm pretty damned impressed at what you and your dad are taking on.
PS Did you get your retaining wall engineered? IOW, did you consult someone to make sure the wall will be structurally sound? In my area, any wall over 36" high must be engineered with specs for deeper footings to handle the weight of the soil it's holding back and the number and placement of seep holes to prevent water pressure building up behind the wall and bringing it down. It's been a long time since I read up on this stuff but this isn't one of those "oh, it's not a big deal, it's just the city being a PITA." There are valid reasons for the requirements and most people don't know what they are or that they even exist.
goodstuf73
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agorebunky
8 years agogoodstuf73
8 years agolisa_a
8 years ago
sheloveslayouts
8 years ago
Susan
8 years agorebunky
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoOh that is awesome! Please keep the updates coming! We bought this 24" fridge. LG. It got good reviews and NOT too expensive.
goodstuf73
8 years ago
goodstuf73Original Author