Floor lamp with CFL flood/spot light shining down. Or In a closet with a bucket light like the ones I use. If you use my bucket light in a closet this year your tree will be way to big to use the bucket light next winter.

Unfortunately I don't, That side of the house had a shed built onto it, so no windows are usable, and trees or porches shade all the other windows. It's a very dark, shady house. I know it's not much, but I live on a very limited budget. Instead of using one high wattage bulb, I could use multiple smaller ones to combine up to the desired wattage couldn't I? I could craft my own holder for the multiple fixtures with some reflective ways to ensure the light usage is maximized. You mean 200w CFL, correct? Perhaps asking the correct lumen output would have been better as the lumens varies by light type, brand, and wattage. I found a site with a lumen chart, and it said 5000 lumens per square foot. The 200W CFL I've looked at give off 10k lumens, so that sounds in line with those requirements. I could go a bit higher on the budget, but not much higher. Thanks Steve and pip for the input so far.

They have nice led grow lights now. Low power consumption.

And low output. It's a lie that led are more efficient that fluorescent. Led are better than t12 through t5 but t5 ho tie or beat led.

Divide lumens by watts then do the same for a t5 ho fixture and you'll see I'm right.

Use cfls if you can't afford anything else. You can slowly add more later.

My household led lights are 92 lumens per watt. 828 lumens 9 watts. They are a19 style but the actual diode is what matters it's a great diode. My t5 ho grow light is 92 lumens per watt. 5000 lumens 52 watts.

In this case I have to admit that I've been hard on led. But keep in mind these are expensive led's not cheaper ones.

Here is why t5 ho still beats led. All bulbs loose effeciency. You have to keep buying expensive led assemblies to replace them. You only have to buy bulbs to renew a t5.

400 watt t5 fixture, under 200 including shipping from eBay. 40000 lumens total.

400 watts of led's requires 45 bulbs at $6 each is 270.

Already watt for watt t5 puts out the same lumens at $70 cheaper. Now add the cost of 45 fixtures to hold the lamps.

Now a real grow fixture with led's doesn't need a bunch of fixtures.

i can't find any 400w fixtures. Some say they are but they use the fake "equivalent" rating meant to compare to old inefficient tungsten lamps not other high efficiency lamps. Remember you need to go off actual power drawn not equivalent. Both led and florescent are rated in equivalency so don't forget to compare apples to apples.

Let's say that the fixture exists and costs the same as the t5 at 200 including shipping. Sounds like they are equal right? Well once the bulbs get old and lose efficiency you need to spend 200 on a new led fixture or 56 for new high quality Philips bulbs.

Want to change spectrum from "blue" to "red"? Well either you can buy a new led fixture or new t5 bulbs.

And if the led fixture costs more?

Pip I to use fluorescents. My baby are the CFL's I can get 23 watt CFL's for $2 each on sale. The 13 Watter's go for $1 I have collected over 100 quality used light sockets for free (recycle). The nice thing about CFL's is they are one piece so they go on sale as one. They are cheaper than the T-12, T-8, T-5. While they are a little less efficient than the T-5's they are easier to reflect an direct to a small area such as in a bucket or garbage can as I do with my trees. My way is definitely not for most growers on this forum.

It depends on what your doing, you like the bucket thing so CFL makes sense.

If your budget was higher, I'd recommend a high-intensity discharge (HID) lamp. They have higher lumen/W ratings than LEDs, though they're getting closer with time.

The drawbacks are the high initial setup cost ($150 for a 400 W setup) and higher wattage requirements. Most HID lamp setups use either 400, 600, or 1000 watt bulbs. And if you do decide to go the HID lamp route, get metal halide (MH) and
not high pressure sodium (HPS). HPS is tough to "live" with because of the ugly orange light it emits.

In your situation, I'd say fluorescent lights (emphasis on plural) would be the best fit without breaking the bank.

-Tom

I'm not so sure about higher wattage requirements. Wattage should be determined by the size of the grow space and amount of sunlight it already gets. Regardless of source.

Also cmh ceramic metal halide is another choice. I've owned one in the past and if I went back to hid I wouldn't consider anything else. Consider that light too if you want hid it's definitely an option.

Hi Pip,

I was referring to the power draw, with an entry-level kit already drawing 400 W (which is a lot less scalable than adding or removing any number of T# fluorescent tubes/CFLs, depending on the need). But, as you say, it depends on the plant and environmental (not to mention monetary!) requirements.

I've heard mixed reviews about CMH, so I didn't recommend it. They are definitely an option, though.

-Tom

I liked it. Be aware of the uv downsides though

Noted! I ended up going the 1000 W MH route because of the intense bluish light (4500-6000 K) and high efficiency. I liked it so much that I have two now, but that's a whole different story.

I'm still waiting for the police to come knocking on my door thinking I have a marijuana growing operation going on.

-Tom

P.S. What UV downsides? Bleaching/burning?

Yeah bleaching and getting a sun tan.

Yeah, that's a major risk, especially if you leave the fixture's glass pane off (if it has one). I might have done that before... for a whole month... Needless to say, everything was a little whiter afterwards. Oops.

I was considering building my own setup and custom fixture, but that would probably cost more than I'd prefer so I kept searching and I found Apollo Horticulture 250 Watt CFL Grow Light Bulb System which comes with both bulb and a fixture with reflector for $59.95. It says it outputs 11,050 lumen for the 2700k light, which is the one I ordered. They also had a 6400k version. Did I order the right light color/temperature for a lemon tree I want to flower? I couldn't find whether the 2700k or the 6400k were best for fruiting trees. Would it be wise to supplement with a couple lower watt 6400k bulbs for leafy growth as well?

"It's a lie that led are more efficient that fluorescent. "

Whereas that may be true for lumen efficiency, it is false for power efficiency within the PAR spectrum. Lumen efficiency weighs light output by human eye sensitivity which is irrelevant to plant growth. On the basis of power output within the PAR spectrum, household A19 LED bulbs are more efficient than household fluorescent bulbs. More specifically, at equal lumen and color temperatures, A19 LED bulbs have more power output in the red region, 600 nm to 700 nm. The photosynthetic action curves of most plants peak at 660 nm but typical fluorescents have a narrow band peaking at 611 nm with almost no output above 630 nm whereas A19 LED bulbs have substantial power output around 660 nm. At equal power outputs, the human eye is about a tenth as sensitive to light at 660 nm as it is to light as 611 nm but plants are more sensitive to 660 nm light. Thus, A19 LED bulbs provide additional, nearly invisible red light that plants use but contribute little to the bulb's lumen rating. You can verify this by inspecting spectral power density charts such as these:

http://www.designingwithleds.com/light-spectrum-charts-data/#Bulb

http://www.designingwithleds.com/light-spectrum-charts-data/#Fluorescent

Regarding lumen calculation, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit

Regarding photosynthetic action curves, see

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra001.png

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra002.png

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra003.png

Since the advantage of LED bulbs is at the red end of the spectrum, lower color temperature LED bulbs are preferable.

You speak of led as if all led are the same, even at same color temp there are vastly different diodes out there.

If you fine tune the led selection you might get more use from led's.

But it you would need to examine the spectral chart like mentioned. Most people won't go that far into it. Even led grow light manufacturers choose diodes based on cost.

But it it still remains that all bulbs loose efficiency with age and your costs sky rocket with led.

"You speak of led as if all led are the same"

No, I clearly said, "household A19 LED bulbs." More specifically, I was talking about the cheapest, 60 W replacement, 800 lumen, 8.5 watt, A19 LED bulbs such as the Great Value (brand) bulbs that are on sale at Walmart for $2.44 from 10/16/15 to 10/31/15. If you can find a spectral chart for it, I bet that it will be almost the same as the one I showed you.

Incidentally, isn't it remarkable that most people prefer to buy LCD TV sets with LED backlighting to LCD TV sets with fluorescent backlighting?

You don't want to replace your Fluorescent lighting in the back of your TV. LED lighting last longer.

The electric use between the 2 are about the same with the LED's being the less expensive. $ for $ buying Fluorescent bulbs is much cheaper than LED bulbs. Also, we use these light in winter so the slight extra electric use in CfL's goes to heat the house and the plants' grow space.

Live long and prosper.

Spoc

Wise decision to add a grow light to help your plant overwinter.LED still isn't where it needs to be to be considered a truly viable alternative to other types of grow lights. Metal halide is still king for overwintering tropicals. 50 isn't enough but grow systems are cheaper than ever and offer more than ever as regards modern tech advances. It's still a bargain. I run with a MH 1000 bulb and good airflow. With only four months of weather here that allow for outside cultivation it's more critical than if I were in a higher zone. Send a query and I'll address anything you have.The blue white spectral appearance of the MH is still better than anything else and even when LED setups reach the vaunted promise land as they will in several years maybe, MH will still be my preference. To the human eye, metal halide is unsurpassed. Take your plants to another level all together with a grow light and you'll wonder why you didn't do it earlier.

I am doing incredibly well with my 13 watt daylight CFL and i can grow 15 trees for just under 200 watts

No, I clearly said, "household A19 LED bulbs."

A19 is the shape of the bulb. It has no bearing on what diode is in it. The fact that you don't even know that would prove your out of your league here.

chose led if you wish. Choose t5ho if you care about long term cost.

"You speak of led as if all led are the same"

"A19 is the shape of the bulb. It has no bearing on what diode is in it."

I said "household A19 LED bulbs" and it was the bare plural "bulbs" that you misinterpreted. Bare plurals rarely mean "all." Later I said "typical fluorescents" therefore you should have surmised that I meant "typical A19 LED bulbs."

Currently, the vast majority of such bulbs are made the same way, blue LEDs are covered with a phosphor that converts some of the blue light to red, yellow and green light. The same can be said for fluorescent bulbs, i.e., the vast majority are very similar although it is possible to find some that are radically different.

Why then are some 9w brighter then some 23w led's if they are all basically the same?

Ive thrown away many led's. Due to them being a waste of electricity.

I dont care what people buy. Spend money on led's that cost more to replace when they go bad if you wish.

i know what technology gets my money. T5ho. The one that I can change bulbs in without having to spend a fortune.

The only fluorescent I've used are the compact, high intensity tubes that were marketed originally for reef tanks. I used them for some succulents back in the day and they were effective for sure. With the correct spectrum, it's amazing the results you can get with low wattage set ups. I'd use fluorescent before LEDS. I like how the spectrum can be manipulated to narrow bands along with LEDs high efficiency. Penetration is a problem, as in the light penetrating vegetation or water if it's a fish tank. I've heard anecdotal from people regarding the lack of durability and problems with warranty issues. Costs are high. The word I've heard is, if you like led just wait. You'll likely not be disappointed. I spoke with one aquarist dealer who made the vaunted switchover to LEDs too soon came to regret it. As far as what he was able to sell to his customers. He pushed this lighting hard and while yes it eventually will be superior to other lighting in various respects he could not get past the higher cost and with issues of durability and the manufacturing guarantee, he did lose money. In the last year, I've been told LED has made strides.

"Why then are some 9w brighter then some 23w led's if they are all basically the same?"

You are the only person here to say or imply the word "all." Please, stop hallucinating the word, "all," in my sentences. Are you a schizophrenic?

"Ive thrown away many led's. Due to them being a waste of electricity."

Although I haven't said it before, typical household LED bulbs are relatively bad for home lighting, i.e., almost the only thing that they are good for is growing plants. This is because they produce too much yellow light near 590 nm which lowers the color rendering index (CRI) to about 82 and accentuates yellowish blotches on Caucasian skin. Typical household fluorescents have a CRI above 90 and very little output near 590 nm. However, some atypical household LED bulbs have a neodymium glass filter that removes light near 590 nm which results in a CRI above 90 but lowers the lumen output. Of course, these would not be as good for growing plants.

That's right aruzinsky, I'm a schizo. How did you know? Thanks for your clear and cogent post. You made some great points. Good luck with your light setup.

"Currently, the vast majority of such bulbs are made the same way, blue LEDs are covered with a phosphor that converts some of the blue light to red, yellow and green light"

You imply that most bulbs are the same then cry that I reference you claiming they all are mostly the same. You sir might be the schizo.

I have no idea what you're talking about. This is two consecutive posts where you're talking about schizophrenia. I don't have time for your nonsense. Sorry. Best of luck

Two different people mentioned schizophrenia and neither were talking to you. Put the booze down.

"You imply that most bulbs are the same then cry that I reference you claiming they all are mostly the same. You sir might be the schizo."

Now you are hallucinating "mostly" in you own sentence when, in fact, you originally said "basically." And, not knowing the difference between "all" and "most" is even worse than not knowing the difference between "all" and "vast majority." I said "vast majority."

karlosveloces, I was talking to pip313 as indicted by his quoted sentence. I give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that your screen resolution and eyesight are such that you have difficulty seeing quotation marks. Can you see this --> " ? If not, try setting your screen resolution to 1280 x 720.

Wondering if aquarium plants growing lights with right light spectrum 6500k, are suitable for using to overwinter citrus plant? Any opinions?

Yes, 6500k florescent is acceptable. Do you already have it? If not shop around, you could pay a premium for "aquarium plant lights" when there really is no difference as long as the bulb technology is the same i.e. T5 vs t5 or t8 vs t8

Not yet but local stores doesn`t have what to offer only Osram fluora T8. And as for aquarium lamps there is plenty of selection T5 T5HO. And these lamps produce lumens per W.

I dont know if its enoutgh light to owerwinter young Limequat with x2 lamps T8 Osram Fluora 36w each produce 1400 lumens. And with 2 i will get 2800 about.

CFL put out a better lumen to watt. A 23w CFL puts out 1500 lumens.

one t5ho bulb 4 feet long puts out 5000 lumens at 54 watts.

I have sunblaze 8 bulb 4 foot t5, 40,000 lumens for 189 including shipping from eBay.

cfl would be cheaper and just as bright as that t8

Whats the difference between 6500k and 6700k? I could find only this bulb on local stores. Strange wawelenght comparing with other grow ligths. Can i use this for my citrus at winter?

Could you? Sure but it's 39w not 54. What wattage is your fixture? And do you have grow stores around?

No grow stores around in country sadly. Its universal fixture can use T5 bulbs 849mm. Can use T5HO 39w or T5 21W. I wanted T5 lighting system of its efficiency. Few local stores can offer only T8 Fixtures with Osram Fluora but in my opinion 36w output 1400 lumens. kinda low for citrus whitch trying to put new growth and blooms at late auttum.

Yeah. Sorry but you would need 6-8 preferably 8 bulbs for good indoor growth. I wouldn't focus on winter growth if ordering a true grow light isn't an option.

Many people do just fine overwintering indoor and getting growth outside in the summer.

Its always staying indoors, i have no other choice. I live in flat with central heating system temperatures are always about 71-75 F, cant change that.

The problem is that i want to get rid of plant leave loss at winter, in my opinion the cause is high temperature and low light levels (at the moment we have about 9 hours total and everyday gets lower). Last 2 seasions i`ve used CFL bulb 5w 6500k about 800 lm. I experienced little leaf loss about 10-15 %. And now when plant grew CFL bulb doesnt cover whole plant and its already having leaf loss.

Now it is blooming and having new grow flush. Last season was the same( but without blooming this year its first) and all the new leaves and branches died with some old healthy leaf drop. I need better lighting to get rid of that make lighting timing and temperature balance.

Please suggest something.

2 foot or 4 foot t5ho 8 bulb fixture.

250 to 400w metal halide

250 to 400w high pressure sodium

250 to 400w ceramic metal halide.

you need to replace the sun. The sun puts down up to 100w every square foot. The minimum I run and that I would run is 50w for every square foot of growing area.

I am running 23 watts for 3 square feet on my New Zealand lemonade tree. I hope it is good or I will have to get a screw in light bulb 3 way splitter so I can run 3 bulb on one ceramic fixture.

Do you want growth or just overwinter it?

I am getting growth and flowering.

I'm sure the fact that the light is contained by the garbage can helps, it renders inverse square irrelevant.

But for those inverse square still applies to, and those with bigger plants, 23w would not suffice.

Has the tree always stayed inside under that same light? I'll admit I did send you the bigger one and didn't keep mine directly under light. Yours is doing better than mine. I've also repotted it a few times due to bad soil and not knowing what mix I was going to settle with.

The garbage can holds the heat in with a 5-10 degrease rise. The can glows white inside and that is like being in the open with no shade near by. replanting is a real stumper. Good luck with your tree it should take off as soon as the roots settle in.

Pip You are correct in that my 23 watt bulb will not be any good for a plant that does not fit in to my garbage can. The light has no penetration power. All it does is keep the top and upper sides growing until next summer. I will have to come up with something similar to your set up or put it in a reliable heated greenhouse for it to do well. This is the only tree that will not go in ground but will remain potted its entire life. So next year I will be looking seriously at some of the best lights you mentioned. My bucket lights are good for only one winter on small trees. The trees are too big the next year.