I have been coming back to this thread and find all your replies intresting. I'm 55 and think I look ok considered my age. I always use green eyeliner and mascara even tho I have my lashes and brows professionally colored as I said in my former reply. A long time ago one of my former neighbor came by and took one look at me and took my hand and said congratulations I see you are pregnant again. I did not say a word but glanced at the foyer mirror and thought OMG I have no makeup on, I had not gained any weight so that was not a reason . Another funny story. After I turned 40 my red hair started to fade and from that day I have had it colored. Well on day after changing hairdressers and she was having a hard time finding my right color I was standing in line at my supermarket and I swear this is true. Our local baker was shopping and he stopped where I was and said your hair is too dark and when I was walking out of the store one of my former teachers walked by and said the same thing. I kid you not. They were right of course.

I'm 70 and think I look okay for my age. I'm not trying to look younger, just good for my age. Also, I think I've earned the right to wear makeup or go bare-faced sans apology. After wearing sensible short hair throughout middle age, it's now to my shoulders and gray as a ghost. Fortunately it's thick and healthy so what the hell. Today at the library, the two gray librarians and I were having a bit of a gray celebration.

When I was in Junior High I sat next to a girl who every day applied so much pancake make-up there was a line of demarcation around her face. White skin on one side and orangey paste on the other. It bothered me a great deal, and I thought she looked like a clown. In those days I would take particular notice of women of all ages and it seemed nearly everyone had a thick layer of something on their faces: I didn't like it and decided I never wanted to clog up my skin - in the ensuing decades have never bothered with foundation or any facial powder, etc. By high school, I was questioning and irritated by society's double standard of acceptance of male's natural selves while expecting woman to somehow "enhance" themselves; not being ok or acceptable without doing so. I did wear eye shadow on occasion and mascara regularly only in my twenties, and then after that only lipstick through my 40's. Lip gloss/balm since, although I realize when writing this I haven't even worn any of that in the last year or two. If make-up works for others, fine, but I'm so glad I never felt like I needed or wanted it. And the money I've saved!

"auntjen

I think it's what we become accustomed to seeing reflected in the mirror & what become, in essence, little security blankets that make us hold to makeup rituals as much or more than their true effect on how others see us.

Well said. Yes - little security blankets. That's exactly what all of this has been for me throughout my life."

To me, figuring out why I needed the security blankets in the first place was what enabled me to stop wearing makeup all the time. And stop having everything be color coordinated and match. And stop ironing every single item of clothing before I wore it. And stop striving for a perfect home. And quit apologizing for dust and piles and whatever.

For me, it was much more than a reflection in a mirror. If the outside looked good, then surely the inside was good as well. Well, the inside wasn't. Once I got gut wrenchingly honest about that, and made some significant changes, I was able to stop wearing makeup all the time...and now it's perfectly ok to be wrinkled, too.

Jmc101- beautifully put.

I did not even start wearing make up until my mid forties---never wore it as a young woman, even when I got married. I had one lipstick for about 20 years!

Now, I wear makeup about once a week or two. I just do not like all the time spent doing it, as it takes me at least 15 minutes to apply since its not second nature. I don't wear much and am unfailingly complimented when I do, but even that hasn't inspired me to wear makeup every day or even every other day. My skin is nicely clear for my age and I think that is at least partly attributable to NOT wearing makeup.

its funny, Jen---I always thought that women who wore makeup daily and whose faces always looked so "finished" we're just more organized or cared much more about their appearance than I do. It didn't really occur to me that someone might wear makeup out of a feeling of insecurity.

I am very particular about my clothes but even though I am not a cover girl I guess am happier than I realized with my appearance.***

*** editing to say perhaps "happier than I realized with my appearance" is not the right thought, perhaps I should have said "less interested in what others think" than I realized. I guess both are good!

Have any of you watched Love, Lust or Run? Stacy London's new show with make unders. Some of them are pretty stunning. She's also been doing "fresh face Friday's" where she as well as others post pics of themselves with no makeup on. Even Stacy in some cases looks better with no makeup than with some of her overdone Morticia looks.

Would you believe this gal is 33, the mother of 3? She was often mistaken for her kids' babysitter and frequently "shopped" her kids' closets.

I was in the heavily made-up camp in my youth; like others it seemed to be a rite of passage into adult femalehood. My mother "put her face on" each day and wore red lipstick, dyed her hair auburn. I was obsessed with having blonde hair and also having it perfectly styled. I became a hairdresser, which supported both stylish/perfect hair and also perfectly applied make-up. I lightened my hair for years and loved how it looked. I wouldn't be caught dead without my make up or my hair done up.

My first little inkling of awareness was reading National Geographic and seeing native people around the world in what looked to me like the most ridiculously made up faces, piercings, stretched lips and earlobes, etc. I thought "how can they think that looks good?" Then I realized Western women were doing exactly the same thing and that we probably looked just a weird to those natives as they did to me. Hmmm.

When I was about 40, I moved to a new town and got involved in working at a domestic violence shelter that was run as a feminist cooperative. The women there were the most confident, as well as political people I'd ever known. No one wore make up, few shaved their underarms or legs. How women smelled was just fine; no perfume to try to smell "better", no make up to try to look "better." It was a little shocking to me at first and I'm sure I looked like a Martian in their midst. But slowly I came to appreciate how superfluous the trappings of "femininity" were and pretty dramatically gave it all up. And never looked back.

What I loved most of all about this were the men who were involved with these women were not at all fazed by this style of being female. In fact, they admired and were drawn to it - women who were just who they were. There were just so many more important considerations, make up, fake nails, all that was just not an issue at all. And my husband of 20 years didn't seem to care a bit, either, even though he'd fallen in love with and married the other "me."

So I really understand the journey; I've been there and ended up here. it's fine! The people I love still love me; new people don't seem to be put off or even notice, but I still run in circles where women just don't really do any of that stuff. Jen, I hope you get to a comfortable place for yourself. Your friend from school was as brainwashed by the beauty industry as anyone else in thinking you looked "better" with mascara. You didn't. You just looked more like the images she was used to seeing in the media.

Olychick wrote: "Your friend from school was as brainwashed by the beauty industry as anyone else in thinking you looked "better" with mascara. You didn't. You just looked more like the images she was used to seeing in the media."
So true!

This really is a great and interesting thread to read. I've gained some new perspectives.

One thing I meant to mention in my earlier post .... I think location is another factor in the equation. More-so in our growing up years, before internet.

I've lived in Europe and Canada, and have spent extensive time in many areas of the US. Here in Texas, I've noticed many women are more "made-up" than other places I've visited and lived. Not 100%, no exceptions, but on average.

So, just as any other situation--decorating styles, fashion, lifestyles, etc--geography has some measure of influence, in my opinion.

I woke up this morning thinking about this thread and how I started wearing makeup. My mom wore makeup expertly and she was adamant that I learn how to apply makeup well. That's all well and good, but that was the only thing she taught me. She never talked to me about sex, relationships, money, education . . . No just the importance of a well put together face. Oh, yes, she also taught me how to cook and clean.

I have no idea how I managed to become a self-supporting feminist.

I don't have a lot of time to respond, as I'm heading out on a business trip (wearing just a smidgen of mascara on my upper lashes!), but it strikes me as so true that there are very real geographical differences that come into play here. I live near Dallas and the women here are generally all dolled up, most of the time. Visiting a mountain resort town in Colorado gives me a different perspective completely. Most of the women in Durango, for example, are very natural and down-to-earth in their appearance. Outdoorsy. I find myself stuck somewhere between the two.

I do go out without makeup. I wore no eye makeup last week to work, and went out completely bare faced yesterday to shop. It's not that I can't do it -- it's that I feel less comfortable when I'm not "done." I want to get to the point where I feel perfectly fine either way.

You'll get there Jen. No rush, just let it happen. Or not, if you find you're really not comfortable. Do what works for "YOU".

Magdalena, LOL! My mother also looks perfect, every single day. She was our Girl Scout leader for about two years...what an education that was! For our personal care badge we had facials and a woman from Neiman Marcus came to teach us how to put make up on. She never got over the fact that it just didn't "take" in my case.

***Adding here that I don't see anything at all "wrong" with wearing cosmetics. They do enhance certain features and our current standard of beauty is based on enhancement. I think people should wear and do what makes them feel good about themselves, and not to satisfy anyone else.

Oh KSWL, that's hilarious! Both my sister and I can run around bare-faced for weeks. Mom hates it when we all have an outing together and she's the only one wearing makeup.

Just to clarify, when I said I didn’t feel attractive when I
couldn’t wear makeup for weeks I don’t believe it's because of insecurities. As ridiculous as that may
sound to some people, my opinions on makeup are more fact to me than
opinion. I also view it as an art and
talent. I believe in putting your best
foot forward, and that means different things for different people. For me it means wearing makeup. I actually enjoy applying it. I’m not talking full or heavy faced
either. The after picture Annie posted
below is more to my preference or even lighter/less. In general, I think motives are always important to check. I do believe it's true that the person inside is way more important than our outer shell.

It bothers me that there seems to be a stigma for people who do like, wear, and have an opinion on it by those who don't share the same, or as intense, interest. I'm sure that could be said for a lot of things and I'm sure someone will flip that around. To that I say, not everyone (including me) is viewing those without in a negative light. To each his own.

I'm curious ... if you avoid makeup do you also live with your natural hair color?

Oh gosh no!

This morning I used concealer, foundation, eyeshadow (two shades), eyeliner, mascara, lipgloss, and blush. And I curled my lashes. Took me a leisurely 7 minutes. I'll do it again tomorrow if I feel like it, or not. My call. I make no apologies. :p

"I'm curious ... if you avoid makeup do you also live with your natural hair color?"

Yes, I do. I quit highlighting about 5 years ago. I had a wonderful guy in PA who was the best colorist, but never found anyone down here who could get it quite right for me. Sigh. I am 63 and I don't have any gray yet (well three hairs maybe). I wish I did! It would give some oomph to my dishwater blonde/mousey hair. However, if the school year continues the way it has started, I will be completely gray by the new year. ;-0

I got bored with my natural hair color around age 40, and started coloring it now and again. But I don't maintain it. Just color it and let it grow out. Roots? Pfft! Well, not really. When I color now, I leave the top layer of hair (which is still really light blonde, though the back and sides are quite gray) in its natural state and lowlight the rest. Since the top layer isn't colored, the roots aren't so obvious. I've done red, brown, burgundy, magenta. Mostly, though, I like my natural hair.

"I'm curious ... if you avoid makeup do you also live with your natural hair color?"

I do now, after years of lightening it. It's almost all gray now, but ironically, it is gray that looks blonde. The one thing I do to "enhance" is perm my hair. It's very fine and slippery and I can't stand having it hanging on my neck or over my ears. The only way I can keep it up is to perm it and pull it up and clip it.

Catching up with this discussion. Still so very interesting... Auntjen this topic is very relevant obviously.

I initially brought up the "you look tired" comments I get when I don't wear makeup. Some have noted this comment by others is insulting and passive aggressive. I fully agree. The person who has said it to me the most in my adult years is my mother and that's a whole other discussion for another day.

Regarding hair I color mine. I started going gray in my 20s and I'm now in my 40s. One day I'll let it all go natural but for the timebeing I'm proudly fighting mother nature on this one.

Makeup is tricky because there is a very fine line between what application/amount makes a person look younger vs. what application/amount makes them look older. Some women inadvertently age themselves by wearing excess makeup, while others definitely take 10 years off, with the addition of makeup and or hair styling. (The 5th woman shown in the Christopher Hopkins makeover video that Annie posted, is an example of the latter.) Either way, if someone is happy with how THEY look, and hasn't asked for opinions on how they look, it's simply wrong for anyone to infer they 'just need to try this or that.'

Personally, what I notice more than the addition or lack of makeup, is teeth. I don't find that crooked teeth, (like my own) detract too much from someone's overall smile. Many of us simply can't afford braces or veneers. Dark yellow teeth, on the other hand, age people, (of either sex) in my opinion much more than grey hair or wrinkles.

My teeth are too sensitive for bleaching products, and other methods don't really whiten them. So I do drink from straws or rinse my mouth after drinking a 'staining' beverage, whenever possible, to at least keep them from turning really yellow. Other than those who have medical issues that prevent them from being able to use a tooth whitener, at least the cost of store bought whiteners isn't prohibitive, as the results can last for several months or more.

I started wearing makeup when I was probably about 14. My Mom wore makeup for special occasions and such, but on an ordinary day she wore just a bit of blush and lipgloss.

I took makeup very seriously and I never went through the bright blue eye shadow phase or any such. I never bought drugstore stuff, either. I generally believed in subtle makeup.

As I get older, I wear stronger makeup. Brighter lips and darker eyeliner. This was an outgrowth of having makeup artists work on me a few times for work-related reasons. I was a bit shocked at the makeup, but I had to admit it looked good. I adjust for RL and for the situation of course, but generally I have taken it up a notch in the last 5 years or so.

I think makeup, like dress up, is part fun and part power trip. I don't do either of them every day, but I do enjoy it and I do think it is wise to when I want to convey a certain image. I think it's a pity men don't really have that choice; not much they can do to change their look.

All that said, there is certainly an element that I recognize where makeup plays into the entire objectification of women and that a lot of energy is squandered on what is arguably trivial.

I think it's a pity men don't really have that choice; not much they can do to change their look.

I agree! All they can do is shave or grow hair.

I have to admit that I was stunned when folks viewed "You look tired." as a passive aggressive remark. I have said that to both men and women when I thought they looked tired, or more tired than usual, and usually it was as an opener for them to tell me how hectic, exhausting, hard working or whatever else has been going on in their lives be it illness, or other difficulty. I have never said it or meant it in any other way. And the folks I've said it to have been more than willing to cooperate with their tales of woe.

A "How's it going?" won't accomplish the same thing? We know you, Annie, and of course you mean well, but the "You look tired." just doesn't sit well with me.

There are just many ways to show concern than to comment on appearance. But, this comment especially gets to me when I am not "tired" in the least.

Mtn, men do a lot more now than they used to. Facials, mani and pedi's, highlighting and dying hair etc. Just not make-up, or not that it's obvious.

i have to agree with you annie... I don't know many people who would consider being and looking tired to be a terrible thing and being asked about it an insult... but, I often don't get enough sleep and I guess enough of the people I associate with don't either! :)

'how's it going' is something I would say to a grocery store check out person or a neighbor I pass walking the dogs, or to a group of friends meeting for lunch, etc. I would only say, 'you look tired' (or stressed or worried, or sad, or happy or whatever) to a friend or someone I knew fairly well and there was time for one on one conversation...

"You look tired" would seem a good way to open the door for a discussion without a prying, "what's wrong?"

I guess I'm always surprised at how people hear something different from what is meant...that people will take offense when absolutely none is intended. I remember when that pol was forced to resign because he called a budget "niggardly"...a word with completely separate derivations, origins, meaning and no racial implications whatsoever. For the speaker who bears no ill intent, it can feel like an ambush (no relation to any derogatory words for a woman's anatomy intended).

On the plus side, there is nothing as annoying to a true passive aggressive than for the intended victim to ignore the person's intent and respond as if the concern were genuine. :-)

Lol KSWL.

I agree that "you look tired" is certainly not a compliment, and arguably an insult. I also agree that diction is only one element of communication, and most people can discern the speaker's intent through context, tone, facial expression, etc.

i choose to ascribe good intent to others, it just makes life more pleasant. If I'm wrong they usually make that clear soon enough!

true! 'haven't had a good night's sleep for 4 days!' might 'quiet them' !?

I don't understand the passive aggressive aspect of 'you look tired'... are you interpreting that as someone saying, 'you're looking old' or 'I don't like your hair' or 'you wear too much or too little eye makeup' ??? I guess I just don't hang around people who would say you look tired and mean something else!!

add- I think using 'niggardly' is poor judgment for a politician regardless of intent and word meaning... too similar to the derogatory...

I can't say anyone has ever told me "you look tired." I have been told, "you sound tired" and I've always taken it sincerely.

I do my best to not ascribe ulterior motives to things people say unless they have previously given me reason to do so.

Some (many?) people just blurt out whatever comes into their mind w/o thinking first. I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt & don't automatically assume it's malicious or spiteful - more likely just clueless....

When I say "Oh, Suzie, you look tired today" or "Do you feel bad today"?, I genuinely am expressing concern for the person. I would only say things like this to people I care about (friends, co-workers, family) and they KNOW I care by noticing. I ALWAYS knew when one of my good friends/co-worker was getting a migraine - I told her I could see it in her eyes and expression. She knew I CARED about how she was feeling.

Edited to add - I feel the same way about the old "Bless your heart" saying that many think of as derogatory. Several people have expressed that that phrase is basically a nice way of making fun of someone or pitying their mentality. I don't feel that way when I or others genuinely mean it. If someone I care about is expressing stress, a problem, an issue they are struggling with, etc., and I say "Oh, bless your heart" I mean it - that is one way I have of saying "I am so sorry you are dealing with this". Of course, I could just say "I am so sorry" but my family and friends know what I mean.

I don't think "you look tired" is always meant to be mean...but when you hear it exclusively on the days when you walk out of the house without makeup, NOT days you are actually tired, it feels different to the receiver, it sounds like "gee, you look terrible barefaced." There are lots of 'harmless' remarks that don't feel so harmless if you hear them repeatedly - like 6'4" friend of mine who heard "Jeez, yer tall! How's the weather up there?" every time she left the house. Intent wasn't terrible but after a few years it made her feel like a freak: you have to be a strong person to put up with unsolicited comments on your appearance every day without letting it bother you. For me of course it's the 'you've lost weight!' comments -- maybe if it was something I'd been working hard on and actually was losing weight, I'd be proud to hear such a comment, but I'm not and I'm not.

My best friend(who I am visiting at the moment!)told me about a recent incident. She and another friend were at the friend's house and a couple of long-time male friends dropped by to say hello. It was summer, and both women were wearing capris. I guess sometime during the conversation, one of the men blurted out, ' why is it older women always have such white legs?' I hope i'm not being too crude, but my retort would have been, 'why do older men always have such small di***'? Yes, I can be vulgar and crass if provoked, and I would definitely have been provoked by that remark.

The other day a neighbor stopped by and remarked that she was surprised that my house didn't smell like cats since I have 2. I could've taken offense, I suppose, but I didn't. I was just surprised that her expectation was that cats=smelly house. And I wondered what kinds of housekeepers she hung around with.

Perhaps finding insult where none is intended might be because the comment hits upon an insecurity? Certainly not in all cases, I guess it depends on who is making the comment.

I say this because one day my trainer was very upset because a woman at the gym said he was looking skinny. I was standing right there, she meant it as a compliment and was totally sincere, but he sure didn't take it that way. Later I talked to him about it and he said that as a kid, he was skinny as a rail and he has to work very hard to keep his muscular body. The guy looks like Chris Hemsworth when he's in Thor character but that comment really messed him up.

A friend told me I looked tired one day about two years ago and I still think about it, wondering what made me look so tired! I didn't find it insulting exactly, just puzzling because I wasn't feeling tired!

I often think it's time to spruce up my look with a little more makeup -- with age I have acquired paler lips and fewer eyelashes. But I'm too lazy most of the time. My makeup routine takes about 3 minutes -- tinted moisturizer, blush, a bit of concealer, and done. Before I leave the house I add some lip gloss, which I reapply a few times usually throughout the day. If I want to put in more effort, I'll do a quick swipe of eye shadow and mascara. I know I look better when I wear a bit of eye makeup, but usually I just can't be bothered. Fortunately I have dark eyes, lashes, and eyebrows, so nothing disappears when I don't wear makeup, but I do look nicer when I "enhance" my eyes.

I wear makeup to prevent others from being scared of my face. I was makeup-free for much of today (working at home, waiting for a delivery) and when I glanced in the mirror, I found myself scary.

I have noticed as I get older, too, how much what color I wear (in clothing) affects how my face looks. For instance, I look much better if I wear a bright pink or orange/rust shirt than I do when I wear a gray shirt. I have been trying to be more conscious of that, and I really do feel better when I wear color. (And I probably look less "tired"!)

I used to wear black, until I saw a photo of myself. I look like death warmed over in black (close to my face, anyway--I still wear black bottoms). "You look tired" is a gross understatement on how I look in a black shirt.

"I think using 'niggardly' is poor judgment for a politician
regardless of intent and word meaning... too similar to the
derogatory..."

Hijacking for a moment-this is just silly!!! As a certified unofficial Language Lady, I protest the attempt to forbid a homonym. Really, the words have absolutely nothing to do with each other and niggardly has no connotation of being a racist identifier. I suggest it's preferable to use words people may not be familiar with, and encourage them to look. it. up.

you need to know your constituents tho!! I don't know who it was who was forced to resign(and forced resignation is ridiculous if that happened for that reason!), but using a word so close to such an inflammatory word is a poor choice imo! it's wonderful to encourage people to expand their vocabulary, but if some of your audience may have a more limited vocabulary and you are hoping to reach them, I think the words you choose to use are very important!!

David Howard was forced to resign over his vocabulary.

Re word usage, but where do you draw the line? Do you remember the controversy over calling people fleeing New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina refugees? If they weren't people seeking refuge from a storm, then what were they? And how does that take on a racist connotation?

At some point, isn't it better to help people learn new words to clarify communication? Or at the very least cut people some slack for not realizing the innocent comment they made with no ill intent, was an affront to someone.

i think using a more varied vocabulary is appropriate in the written word (although most newspapers are written for an average 9th grade reading level i think i remember reading) ... if someone doesn't understand a word, they can look it up! but, when people are listening to a speech or the news or whatever, people might think they hear something and get enraged!! people are reactive and the speaker needs to understand that!!

the issue with Katrina is that the term refugee is usually used when people are fleeing their land to a foreign country... it was used correctly technically, but offense was still taken.

it's really not surprising at all -- we see how quickly people become offended here for goodness sakes... !!!!!

thx annie-- it seems that the mayor will rehire him which is very good to see!!

Busy, I always understood the average functional reading level to be 6th grade.

Somewhat tangential, but this TED talk I came across made me think of this post.

I thought this was interesting:

Models and real life

I also thought Amy Schumer's "12 Angry Men" bit was quite amusing and insightful. I would link to it but I do not know where one can find it free it its entirety anywhere. It is on Hulu.

My new favorite word is "untrustable."