And did PSU realize you were doing a lawn and not plowing a farm or even a garden? Because if you rototill to build a lawn the soil will become progressively bumpier over the next 3 years. And when I say bumpier, I'm talking about breaking-your-lawnmower-wheels off bumpy. You'll hate it.

Lawns don't need anything blended into the soil. Everything happens at the surface. So save yourself a LOT of time, money, effort, and general hassle by skipping the rototill part.

If your surface is not perfectly flat, then the drag is a good idea. If you have high spots try to rake those loose and drag that soil to the low spots. By doing it this way you'll be literally 3 years ahead of the game. Your soil already has a solid structure so LEAVE IT ALONE.

After you spray the RU, water the area lightly, 3x per day, just like you would with new grass seed. The purpose of this step is to sprout all the weeds in the yard. Then next week spot spray those weeds with RU. Otherwise they will come up with the new grass seed and you can't spray.

Scatter the seed on the raw soil and roll it down with a water fillable roller (rented). Then start watering lightly 3x per day like you practiced the prior week. If you have KBG in your seed mix then you MUST continue watering the same way for a full month to germinate all the slow starting KBG.

Morpheuspa, who lives in your neighborhood, will help you with applying the chemicals. He's also going to suggest using an organic fertilizer every now and then. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been only organic since 2002 and it's fixed everything that was wrong with my lawn.

I'm short on time right now, so I'm probably not as gentle as usual. Tilling is a horrible idea that will cause problems for years with bumpiness, poor drainage, and damaged soil biology. One should never add that much phosphorus at once, nor lime, and definitely not muriate of potash (potassium chloride, a very salty substance). I use alternates for each of those that are gentler.

Plus seeds aren't as tolerant of stress as adult plants, so this would seriously cause problems with your sprouting lawn.

If you post the test, I'll be happy to give it a look and design a plan that won't kill the new lawn. All additives can go on the surface with no problems, they just take a while to work. But that's true anyway.

David and I were typing at the same moment. Yeah...what he said. :-)

Thank you both! Here is the soil test. Soil Test

Um. Wow. The crown for Most Collapsed Soil of 2015 just went to Timo. It's no wonder you have trouble with your lawn. I'm a little surprised you had a lawn instead of a field of weeds that were mining the lower soil profile in a desperate attempt to keep themselves alive.

This isn't a great test, so in spring I'd have a Logan Labs test done. It contains a lot more information on many more resources. But I can start you off with this information.

We have a major conflict. You have seeding that has to get done. And you have soil that isn't going to support those seedlings at all well past Day 30. We can't skip the seeding, but we can't kill the seedlings with the materials going down.

Which means that this plan is played rather more gently than I normally would (a soil like yours would go straight into emergency correction territory) to avoid harming the baby grass. But I can't go too slow or the grasses won't survive.

Sorry about the frequency of things going down, but I have to.

I'm going to estimate that you plant the lawn no later than September 12. If that date varies, I have to know about it.

Let's start:

CEC 8.6: Mixed silt and sand, most likely, and I'd expect a fairly even split on those two. Your soil holds decent resources.

pH 5.1: I'm shocked it's that high with Ca, Mg, and K that low. It could be a mis-read on the test, or you could have a large soil fraction of sodium. The test doesn't specify.

OM (organic matter), sulfur, sodium, zinc, iron, boron, manganese, copper, etc.: Not tested. No big deal for this test, we have much bigger fish to fry.

Phosphorus 23 PPM: Quite low. Target would be 100 PPM or so. We use off the shelf starter fertilizer for this (which will also feed your new lawn). Just get the cheapest, which is usually Vigoro or Lesco, but it does vary. They're all pretty much the same. Recommendations below.

Calcium 20.2%: Deeply deficient. Target here would be 65%-70%. For this, we use calcitic lime as the cheap limestone is too slow, too weak, and requires far more mass per thousand square feet--plus adding elements I'm adding in other ways. Encap, Mag-I-Cal, and Pennington Fast Lime are all acceptable; the $4 bag of "Limestone" off the shelf is not. Recommendations below.

Magnesium 5.3%: Very low. Target here is 11% in your soil, 10-15% is fine. For this, we use Epsom salt from the drugstore in the bath or First Aid section. Normally I wouldn't combine this with anything else, but time is very tight this fall and resources are very low.

Potassium 1.0%: Extremely low. Normally, I'd ignore potassium, but in this case I simply can't. For this, we use potassium sulfate, AKA sulfate of potash (NOT potassium chloride, or muriate of potash; that stuff is harsh and damaging to the soil biology). You can get potassium sulfate at most garden shops, landscape stores, or order it online.

Recommendations:

September 5: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap, Mag-I-Cal or Pennington Fast Lime per thousand square feet*. Apply 1 pound of Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

September 12 (seeding day): Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate before or after the seed. Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet (if you don't have it by this date, apply it as soon as you get it).

October 12: Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate.

October 19: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap, Mag-I-Cal or Pennington Fast Lime per thousand square feet. Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

November 1: Apply 2 pounds of Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

April 1, 2016: Apply 2 pounds of Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

April 15: Apply 6 pounds per thousand square feet of Encap, Mag-I-Cal or Pennington Fast Lime per thousand square feet

May 1: Apply 3 pounds per thousand square feet potassium sulfate.

Memorial Day: Apply starter fertilizer at bag rate.

* Numbers are low because you're about to seed, and dumping calcitic lime on seed is not a great idea; you'll end up with a very pale lawn that establishes slowly.

Well I can’t tell you how happy I am to have the crown for
the Most Collapsed Soil 2015. With some
elbow grease from me and a little help from my friends here, I hope that my current
crown doesn’t hinder me from having the Best Lawn on the Block 2016. J

Thank you both very much for the detail you have laid out and the
easy to comprehend schedule. It’s very
helpful. Also thank you for the strong feelings against tilling and
creating a monster.

Some other facts…

The ground is level, no bumps or low spots.

I have a couple of additional questions.

I can’t apply additives on Saturday September 5 but I will
on Sunday September 6. Does that change
any of the other dates? Seed will still go down on September 12.

Leading up to September 6 should I scalp the lawn, like tomorrow
September 3 and water 3x per day to encourage weed seed growth? Then RU again one
day next week. Which day to apply RU?

Thank you

The crown trades around a fair bit, and I award a new one every year. :-) But yes, from the January through September period so far, this is the worst soil I've seen.

That's a good thing. Improvements will be obvious, pretty fast, and show that a bad lawn in this case is definitely Not Your Fault. The soil simply couldn't support it.

September 6th is A-OK. A day's wiggle room is not an issue.

>>Leading up to September 6 should I scalp the lawn, like tomorrow September 3 and water 3x per day to encourage weed seed growth? Then RU again one day next week. Which day to apply RU?

You can scalp as soon as 3 days after the first Round Up application, and watering can begin as soon as 3 hours (not days, hours) after the Round Up is applied. Once or twice a day is sufficient for weed sprout.

Assuming tomorrow is scalp day, you can reapply RU on September 9th and plant on the 12th.

Today I mowed the lawn on the lowest setting, then raked, then mowed again. I then put down 1 lb of epsom salt and I am watering right now. I will be putting the Mag-I-Cal tomorrow or Sunday.

There is still a large amount of dead yellow grass on the lawn. What should I do about that, if anything ?

Thanks!

Here is a pic from July 20, 2015

A pic from Aug 27, 2015 after the first RU.

From Sept 4, 2015 after mowing low.

This is the seed bed as it stands now. This concerns me. What should I do about the remaining dead yellow grass? Thanks!

Just a feeling here, but I suspect the Logan Labs test will show significantly different results and not based on corrections made this fall. I don't see how you could have that green a yard in July with a horrible soil.

I did read on beyond the soil test to the stuff that Penn State sent regarding establishing a new lawn. Perhaps these guys are the ones telling everyone to rototill? Here are some thoughts.

Rough-Grading

Remove all debris, including large stones, left by construction work.

Till soil and bring area to rough-grade prior to liming or fertilization.

Where topsoil is to be replaced or brought in, first rough-grade the area to the contour of the finished grade to facilitate uniform distribution of topsoil.

In the construction industry this would be called 'finish grading.' Rough grading is what is done prior to construction. Finish grading is done to correct all the damage done by contractors. They don't use rototillers, though. They use tractors and box blades. A good driver can fix a pretty bad area at a rate of 2 acres per day. If the drainage is pretty close already, then they can do 5-10 acres per day. Farther down on the Penn State pamphlet it says...

Soil Amendments

Where a soil test indicates the soil has a low organic matter content, work the recommended amounts of organic matter into the soil to a 2- to 4-inch depth before applying the starter fertilizer. Reed sedge peat, moss peat, or a combination of the two materials is recommended as a source of organic matter. Well-rotted sawdust or well-rotted manure may be used as a source of organic matter, although these materials decompose quite rapidly and maintain desirable soil physical conditions for a shorter period of time than do reed sedge or moss peats.

This is kind of unbelievable. A homeowner should NEVER till sawdust into the soil. You may as well pour gasoline on it and set it on fire. The claim that it will decompose quite rapidly is dead wrong. Once it's buried underground it won't decompose for years. And while it's trying to decompose it will rob nitrogen from all the plants. Buried wood becomes a giant nitrogen suck. As fast as you can pour it on the wood will suck it up. You'll end up with yellow grass for years. You're going to have much better results simply by applying organic fertilizer on top of the soil before, during, and/or after seeding.

I'm considering getting a Logan Labs test this week, just because lawns already dug up and removing some dirt would be easy. Would you recommend getting a Standard Test $25 , or Complete Package $55 or something else?

Thank you. Tim

Standard! It'll contain more than enough information to rebalance your soil.

The complete package is nice, but we don't really need the saturated paste answers, and I don't pay any attention to nitrogen (nitrate and ammonia) tests anyway.

I'm watering 3x per day. This is to promote weed seed growth and to water in the epsom salt and Mag-I-Cal. How much water should I be applying in a session or in a day? 1/2 in" or so per day? Thank you.

Hi All, Please see my post with the picture from Friday at 2:14 pm. I've got two questions....

Is this an appropriate seed bed, do I need to rake this up before seeding?

Is Scotts starter fertilizer good enough or should I use something different?

Thank you.

If you can mow that with the bag on and the mower set to a short mow, that would be great. If not, it'll do.

Scott's is a fine starter. There are often cheaper ones available at the same stores, but whatever you pick up is just fine.