After all the hype about Frozen, I tried to watch it to see if my grandson would like it, but found it pretty much unwatchable. And as it turns out, his group of friends from school, (the 5-7 year old boys) find it "poison" - probably because the girls like it so much! I don't get it at all.

The schools would still teach the things you are lamenting (cursive, music) if we insisted. The schools are ours.

I learned to read music in elementary school. We had to play the recorder from grade 2 to grade 7, my reading ability is pretty limited but I can't imagine not having it.

When it came to my own children, their elementary school had a school band starting in grade 4 so in they went and they both played in the band all the way through to the end of high school. One played the trumpet and the other played the baritone and the tuba. Do they have any talent - nope but at least they can read music. Once they got beyond my ability to help them we hired a music teacher, a young man who they adored.

I knew my kids would never be musicians so I didn't see the point of piano lessons (which I happen to think is the loneliest place for a kid - JMO). I put them in the band because they were with other kids and learning something, but the big reason was because they would have a ready made group to belong to at the high school which was the band. The band program at their school was an award winning program that, if you were from out of catchment, required an application.

Unfortunately cultural funding, regardless of the level of government is always the first to go when funding cutbacks are necessary. It's the same philosophy in education and at home. With the current economy, for many families, music lessons for kids, going to kids symphonies, etc, is a luxury.

Cursive writing - my boys couldn't write their way out of a paper bag. One has beautiful printing and the other has undecipherable chicken scratch. His signature is his first name only - no last name.

One thing l love about my church is that we sing all the verses! Music is a very important part of my church world-wide. But I find it puzzling how many members of our music ministry in my own congregation don't read music. I rang in the bell choir and half of the group couldn't read music, including choir members!

bpathome, same at my church. I happen to think we have the best music across the denominations and we do belt out all the verses. Plus, when the sopranos scattered about sing descant on the last verse, it's like the Heavenly Host itself paid a visit.

I have a lot of admiration for people who can learn a part (alto, tenor, bass) that's not the melody by ear. But it's a lot harder for them. I wonder if learning when you're a kid is easier.

Some people have such an ear. I heard that Jim Croce could sing the harmony to someone else's melody the first time through.

i don't agree about the importance of penmanship... my own penmanship is pretty poor and my kids probably write equally as poorly but, it isn't a 'skill' they really need- they all know how to print well enough if necessary... I do think it's really sad that the arts and PE are being cut from some schools for budget reasons...

my kids all have some musical talent and all took different musical instrument lessons for many years and all still have a strong interest in music now as young adults. a couple of them absolutely love Disney musicals and have seen them all and liked frozen. last winter break, my of one guys showed me a really funny youtube video entitled 'Dads respond to Disney's Frozen' ... so cute! I told him he will definitely be the dad watching the movies and belting out all the Disney tunes with his kids!!!

My kids have seen Frozen but I did not sit down with them for it so I am not all that familiar with the music. They did name our puppy Olaf, which I argued against because to me it was too much of an expected choice and I prefer to go against the grain. I lost that one. My music reading ability is rather negligible and I do wish I had learned more but it is what it is. In church, I am somewhat on the fence. I do love many of the old hymns (though I might argue against describing them as proper). They are absolutely beautiful but some of them are very difficult to participate in and for me I like to participate, even though my vocal range is limited. I do find some of the more contemporary services going what I would consider too far with the noise level of the band, but some of the additional instruments are a courtesy to anybody next to me and mine, it helps to block our admittedly awful sounding participation.

I will say with schools, I am very glad I do not bear the responsibility of deciding upon curriculum because everybody would be mad at me. I would add another hour to the day, so we could get more recess in first of all (one 15 minute recess is not enough), and add more time for the other things like art and music and cursive. Of course, taxpayers would hate me because the teachers would need to be paid for that extra time, etc. One of my sons has the most horrendous chicken scratch but at 11, he types faster than I do (and I am a fast typist). The elementary school did acquire some keyboards so they are beginning basic keyboarding.

I so agree about the recess!!!! my youngest said 'no recess' was the hardest thing about adjusting to middle school!

Oh my! LOL here. Can't tell you how many Elsas we had knock at our door last Halloween.

I have a friend who named her daughter Elsa. She was born about two months before the movie came out. Needless to say, she wishes she had known about Frozen before choosing that name!

"She has a very distinct style of cursive that she learned in a Boston Catholic school. It has a name but I can't recall."

The Palmer method of handwriting is what I think you mean?

My late grandmother once swore that a young female family member received a promotion at work because, "She writes a pretty hand." ;-)

I bet she did! I love to see beautiful handwriting....mine is horrible. Wasn't always this way....not sure why it changed.

Anyway, my mothers handwriting was gorgeous....so pretty. I cherish the too few things of hers with her hand written signature or notes and letters.

There are people at Etsy who make jewelry that is an exact replica of something a loved one wrote.

So, if you have a Love Always. Ma or Happy Birthday, Baby...Love, Ma

they will make whatever you give them.

I keep thinking I might get a small bracelet....what I wouldn't give to hear he say Love you, Ma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb5IH57SorQ

Here's some fun at Frozen's expense by Honest Trailers.

This film has and is still making so much money that even if the sequel is awful they will still make money.

I probably shouldn't admit this (well, some of you already know what a weirdo I am), but I have a tattooed replica of my Grannie's handwriting on my arm - words taken from a letter she wrote to me in the 80s: "There will always be a special place in my heart for you."

I thought I was the only mom who hated frozen! I think I actually hate hearing all the young girls who endlessly try to sing the songs and their moms posting it on FB.

As far as cursive and reading music go, my DD's public school system teaches cursive in 3rd grade and every student must play in band or orchestra in 5th so reading music is still often taught today.

We don't have children, so I am spared most kids' movies. However, we liked the Shrek series and want to see Despicable Me.

Most music is formulated and manufactured. I was reading an article on The Economist that the average music festival attendee is 33 years old, and the average age of the acts that play them is 43! This is because the older acts have had longevity to their careers. The most current music I hear is in Zumba or Spinning classes. Otherwise, we listen to our classic and hard rock stations on Sirius.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6613047/festival-headliners-average-age-continues-to-rise-are-the-youngs-replacing.

On cursive, I have a HS friend who still has perfect cursive. Her Christmas cards are easy to read! I once won an award for penmanship in 5th grade and it was all downhill from there. While mine is more chicken scratch, DH's cursive looks like an elementary school kid wrote it.

If little kids are singing because of the movie, let them sing.

As a grandmother of a first-grader, I'm grateful that the Disney soundtracks, like Frozen, give her music she likes with lyrics that are age appropriate. Lately, there isn't much on the radio that a six-year-old should be singing along to...Let It Go is beyond overplayed, but some of the other Frozen songs are clever and fun to sing, IMHO.

In the '80's, my kids wore out a couple cassette tapes of The Lion King on our road trips. They grew up exposed to many types of music but loved belting out those songs because it was a blast to sing them,

Both my kids took piano lessons & played in the elementary & middle school bands. Both had principle & leading roles in classic HS musicals. DS is the real musician in our family and continued to study & perform through college. He participated in a national contest for young composers. It isn't a career path he pursued but music is still a passion of his - still helps him unwind and connect with people, even now that he lives overseas.

I guess my feeling is that if kids get introduced to music in a way that is positive and joyful it can spark a lifelong appreciation of all types of music. If Disney tunes are doing it, I can put up with the repetition.

BTW, according to my DD, The Princess & The Frog has the best music since the Lion King ;)

DH and I watched the movie sometime back in the winter, probably when everything in the south was frozen and there wasn't much to do. Didn't much care for it like we did many of the other Disney movies, but can see the appeal to the masses of little princesses out there. And if it gets little kids singing along with their parents, who cares? Ours did the same thing with other music and so did our grands. It isn't Bach or Bethoven, but hopefully it is a foundation for music appreciation. Those kids will graduate to more sophisticated music eventually.

It doesn't have to be Bach or Beethoven----that's really the problem, isn't it? There is an abyss between the kind of four note "tunes" that pass as music today and the music that appeals to a more musically educated taste----and seemingly nothing in between. The gap between "Let it Go" and any decent music may be too wide to breach; kids growing up on a steady diet of insipid music may never graduate to anything more sophisticated and satisfying.

I listen to, studied and in a very amateur way perform classical music...and I still liked Frozen. Let It Go is, I thought, pretty standard musical (like Broadway musical) fare. Then again I don't have kids so I've only had to hear it like twice and had to look it up for this thread.

although there are very rich and complex alternative veins for all musical styles, apparently consumers reward simplicity in music.

http://m.mic.com/articles/107896/scientists-finally-prove-why-pop-music-all-sounds-the-same

It is not JUST the music that makes this movie a horrid experience. The snowman is UGLY, the life of the sisters was tragic, the "prince" who turned into a CREEP ISH!! I kept waiting for a redeeming point, perhaps at the end they would make a claim of "this is why Norway is so cold" fairytale style..but they didn't even do that...I am sooooo glad my kids were beyond the "lets buy the movie" stage. I could not have sat through that video more than the once I did.

Thanks, Robo. I enjoyed that. Good explanation.

I agree with Robo, it's not "art" but it is pretty standard musical tune. Kids sing along, their families sing along, it's not offensive, families have a bonding experience initiated by Disney. I see no harm in it.

I got in big trouble here some years ago for suggesting that kids who listen only to rap music miss out on the thrills and chills of a lovely melody. I was trod all over, so I'm NOT saying that again. However, I will say how much I enjoy a beautiful melody, like Stardust, and especially those with minor notes like Stella by Starlight or some of the arias like Nessun Dorma. I don't find those kinds of stirring melodies so often in the music of today. So, to have a song like Let It Go make it, does not surprise me. I think the deemphasis of melody has been going on for decades. To have it bleed over into the church setting I guess would be a logical step.

I think modern music is for the most part a bit more rhythmically complex and it maybe true that melody has taken a backseat. I almost feel like rock music has held on a little too long and something new will come along that is horrifying to my ears but very rewarding to those who are deeply into it, atonal electronic music a la Aphex Twin, perhaps.

Although not movie music, I was watching a bit of the Country Music Awards this week and thought, "all these songs are the same" -- same sound, same themes. meh.

"I think modern music is for the most part a bit more rhythmically complex and it maybe true that melody has taken a backseat."

i could not agree with that, Robo. Some modern composers like Eric Whitacre are more unusual tonally, but rhythm has taken a backseat over the past 20-30 years. Todays popular music relies heavily on dance beats and rap is the simplest beat of all-----spoken cadence.

My almost 4yo DGS is not interested in Frozen, but my 3yo DGD is very much so. I watched it when her parents went to the beach and was not impressed. She loves the original Mary Poppins and sings the songs all the time, so I ordered her the Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderalla I watched annually as a little girl.

We are not interested in most animated films, but that is not the reason daughter doesn't and won't be buying/showing Frozen or such films for her daughter, and it's not the music even though she is a professional musician. It's the sexualized, female princess characters that she (and I) find offensive. Sometimes it feels like we are the only ones....

Edited to add: daughter I'm sure has never heard the music to Frozen as she won't watch it - I'm certain she would concur with kwsl if she ever does. I agree with allison and plan to play some of the old films for my GD when she is a little older.

Throughout history the popular music of the time was derided by the previous generations for something Wrong. Yet, they all survived, and the musical genius's of the day understood it and transformed it into the prevalent pop culture of the time.

I don't understand music, I like Gordon Lightfoot and CCR ( a few current ones too) and when rap hit the world, I hated it, still do. But I'm not a musical genius either.

I don't care for Let it Go, but I think Vuelie is terrific. While it is an adaptation of an earlier piece, how many folks had heard that before Frozen? I'm glad kswl2 started this thread because that reminded me to listen to it again. Here for convenience: Cantus Eatnemen Vuelie

(As an aside, I found it interesting that there were so many Elsas at our K-3 school's Halloween parade but no Annas.)

My younger kids like Frozen. They like musicals in general. My youngest was singing the "uh huh" part in tune from Les Mis (intro to "Look Down") when she was under a year because she heard it so often. Les Mis started to drive me crazy because my oldest spoke of nothing else for a year. A year! Frozen was fine when I first heard it--I liked it-- but after hearing my kids sing it incessantly, I loathe it. The sisterly love aspect is completely lost on the younger kids. Elsa comes across as mean and trying to hurt Anna from their perspective. I still love Olaf and if Kristoff were a real man and I had the opportunity to date him, I totally would, haha! I also like the guy in Tangled. I did not grow up with Disney because my mom was against it. So, I don't have any emotional ties to Disney and my kids don't seem to either. My husband commented that he wished we could take them to Disneyland or World or whatever is in Florida. We absolutely could not afford it, but if I had the $ for a trip, no way would it be to Disney. Sorry for my many tangents!

Simple is okay---sometimes simple is deceptive genius, like Gregorian chant or Taize.

Bumblebeez, I like a lot of popular music, and agree that each generation's music seems strange and even morally bankrupt to their forebears. I don't share that view....I just HATE Frozen, lol.

On a happier note, I am going to be on a board overseeing the creation of a new regional children's choir and the timing couldn't be better. Children who can sing should be trained properly, and sing like children rather than trying to emulate the vocal contortions of pop stars to the detriment of their vocal cords. Every time I hear a young child sing in a head voice I want to hide. Or tell the mother to turn off the radio and TV!

There are YouTube videos all over the internet that showcase small kids who sound "just like" Elvis, Madonna, Britney Spears, Beyoncé and even Marlene Deitrich, and they are all lauded for simply sounding like adults. This Norwegian girl in particular is BEYOND creepy:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBGMQ9Kx9iI

And what are her parents thinking, having her song lyrics like "darling kiss me" at age eight or nine??

gramarows... it's been many years since I've seen it, so really can't remember exactly why I felt like this, but Pocahontas was the worst Disney movie for how they portrayed the female lead-- i really didn't care for it. mulan, on the other hand, did a good job, imo!

I'm stepping out on a branch here....and you will probably not welcome my post, but I DO have to say that everyone's taste is different and you have to be tolerant of some things and (forgive the pun) Let it go with others.

My family has always enjoyed most of the Disney animated movies (not to mention Pixar). My daughter grew up on Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast and Mulan. When Frozen came out, the LAST thing I wanted to do was see the movie after listening to the general public (everyone and their brother) sing Let it Go. I was sick of hearing it and thought it was WAY overdone and just didnt get why everyone was taken with the movie or the song. I DO think that this move resonates with the girls because of the strong female characters.

My daughter, now an adult, wanted to see the movie as she heard there was a strong female lead and it didnt end in "the prince comes in and saves the day". we rented it when it came out on DVD and I totally changed my mind. C'mon, the snowman (olaf) is goofy, but VERY amusing! The music is lovely, esp'lly Let it Go sung by Idina Menzel, who is a very talented broadway actress (ie Rent) and i found the song, when sung by a professional who can actually SING well and the context of the movie well done. I was also impressed by Kristen Bell; had seen her in a couple things, didnt realize she could sing. As for "creepy prince", etc. Real life is not all "happily ever after". Maybe it was interesting for kids to see the creepy prince show his real self. It's like my mother used to say: WHY does there have to be a grumpy guy living in a trash can (on Sesame Street)? Well, because in real life, your kids (and you) are going to run into some grumpy people. LOL

Some movies/music are definitely better than others. I was surprised Mulan's theme song by Christina Aguillera (sp?) did not take off. Busy Bee, I'm with you on Pocahontas! YUCK! in my opinion. Anele, Tangled was a GOOD movie, tho I"m not sure it got much press/attention as many of the other animated movies.

To each their own, I guess....

I do have to agree with some of the "it's too bad we're not doing this and that" with the newest generation.

and, idina menzel- ie:wicked!

I have decided that I absolutely need to see frozen now... maybe this weekend :)

Or as John Travolta knows her ... Adele Dazeem.

kswl: Gregorian chant or Taize

Yes, yes, yes.

And that little Norwegian girl, totally creepy. Couldn't get past the first 10 seconds.

I saw Frozen, but it's not really fair to judge it when I saw it on a tiny screen on a plane with bad sound quality. I don't want to spoil the movie for anyone so stop here if you still plan to see it and want to be surprised. Sure, sure, eventually the movie was all Girl Power! but it missed the bigger lesson of learn to communicate.

The sisters are very close but one has a special power, to freeze things with a touch, that she accidentally uses on the younger sister. The sisters are separated for her safety but it's never explained to her why, so the younger one grows up feeling rejected and lonely. It's Disney, so the parents die. Older sister decides to shirk her responsibility to take over kingdom and runs off, to sing that ridiculous song. Younger, rejected, starved for affection sister falls for the first guy who pays her any attention. He's evil, natch. Eventually, the sisters band together and all is well with the world. Girl Power!

A few family conversations might have prevented this whole thing but then there wouldn't be a movie.

I think the whole premise started with we'll write a repetitive song that will hook kids, that will also be the feature of the Broadway show we'll do after the movie, and let's throw in ice for a smooth transition to an ice show. Did we miss any other way to milk this cash cow?

I don't listen to the radio so I've managed to avoid the song except for the initial viewing on the plane. I know it became a crazy hit but somehow I've avoided it.

"I think the whole premise started with we'll write a repetitive song that will hook kids, that will also be the feature of the Broadway show we'll do after the movie, and let's throw in ice for a smooth transition to an ice show. Did we miss any other way to milk this cash cow?"

Thank you!

Sure, isn't that the way Disney works!? Merchandising, Merchandising, and more $$$

The old Disney live action films are fun, but they're frequently sexist in the worst ways. My daughter loved Summer Magic in particular, which had a lot of dialogue and music/lyrics that would not pass today's smell test for sexism. We talked about it every single time she watched the movie and today she is a card-carrying feminist, so I suppose it didn't damage her :-)

Of course that's the way Disney works. It's their prerogative but this just seemed the most blatant display of it. I've always enjoyed Disney, and Pixar, animation but this movie had me thinking more about the merchandizing opportunities they created than the creativity.

Hh,

I think it gets worse as the years go on

For me or Disney? :-)

just saw in our paper this week that the Lion King still tops the list of current top grossing plays on broadway..... Aladdin was #3....

The little girl next door discovered "Let It Go" a few weeks ago and has been singing it outside. All. The. Time. Unlike many of you, I actually like (or at least liked) the song, but heavens to pete is it overexposed.

My daughter has been receiving musical instruction in school including reading music. She had vocal music in K-3 and strings (she plays violin) in 4 and 5. She's signed up for orchestra as an elective in middle school. I think the music program was primarily funded (possibly entirely funded) by PTA fundraising and by grants but it's been great.

I sing in a church choir and until last year was also part of a small women's ensemble that sang monthly at retirement homes (we went on hiatus when my director fell and suffered a head injury--I'm afraid now that we're never going to resume. I learned to read music with piano lessons as a kid, but it was also taught in elementary school music class. And then I was in choir all through junior high and high school (and a bit in college).

I went on a road trip with my daughter earlier this summer, and when we first got on the road I thought she was going to want to listen to nothing but top 40 the whole trip. I made a case for listening to country in the areas where that was 90% of what was on the airwaves (there aren't many country stations where we are from). We also listened to some classical, some religious choral music, some 80s power ballads, and a bit of metal. One of the things that drives me crazy about many young people is their rigid conviction in the superiority of whatever narrow set of music happens to be on trend at the moment (this bugged me even when I was a teen). I'm happy to have a kid with eclectic tastes (for now, anyway; she's not a teen yet).