Is that the only dining room? If not, you could move the table out and maybe add a peninsula (or Island?) and put some seating there. I have no idea if it's big enough for an island. Fridge could go to the right of dishwasher on the wall or on that open wall if you made it u shsped kitchen

Welcome back. :)

Is there enough room to move the fridge to the sink wall, with a narrow pantry cab next to the wall? Then you could center the range without moving the gas line. If that's possible, I'd put the DW and sink as close to the fridge as possible, to leave more room for prep on the other side of the sink.

ETA, great idea, Amber. ;)

And, drawers!

Oops, when I edited I removed the part that said "No room or inclination to add anything to footprint." Or move the built-in SubZero. I swear, I dropped an entire paragraph. Need to get back into the Kitchen Posting Game I guess. ;-)

Sorry -- yeah, that's the only place to eat. It's an 1100 ft2 condo, and I would replace table with a dropleaf, most likely.

In that case, I'd move the range to the right of the sink and DW. How long is the sink wall? It would be nice to switch the sink and DW, but I don't know if that would leave enough counter for prep space.

Is there room to put the dining table in the area that's staged for just living room?

If the dining table is not in the kitchen, maybe you could put the range on the exterior wall (easier exhaust?), making a U shaped kitchen. If it's useful for reference, our house is small (1200) and our living/dining room is approximately 21x16 (minus a path the length of the 21' for traffic to flow to the back deck). It's comfortable with a long sofa, a chair and table for six with ample space around it. The sofa and dining table are parallel to each other on opposite ends of the room so it feels for open than if the back of the sofa faced the table.

Where do you live that it's a code violation to have a range directly adjacent to the fridge? That's not international residential code.

Marcolo had that handy mnemonic Ice Water Stone Fire, which made sense to me. (Correct me if it's wrong, palimpsest -you're the expert.) Which would suggest that ideally the range should be to the right of the sink (water) and also beyond some prep space (stone), as mama goose said. But, as a small kitchen owner, it is true that the arrangement isn't as crucial if you're only going a few feet.

What's the bigger issue is that all three primary work zones are crammed into the corner! Then, there's that long stretch of wasted couterspace - wasted b/c it's not located where it's useful. Your instincts are right on, SegBrown!

I would either:

• Move the sink and DW down until the DW is 36" or so from the right wall (for enough dish storage space above the DW). Then move the range to where the sink is now with at least 36", preferably 42", b/w the sink and range. You could have a Tea/Coffee Center to the right of the sink - it's close to the sink.

-or-

• Move the range to the right of the sink. Move the DW to the left side of the sink (the sink will have to move to the right a bit to accommodate the DW on the left). Have at least 24" b/w the right wall and the range and at least 36", preferably 42", b/w the sink and range. [It looks like the DW would open w/o interfering with the refrigerator.] You could have a Tea/Coffee Center to the right of the refrigerator - it's close to the sink.

I would love to turn the corner and make more of a U, but I'm just not sure there is room for a table. I obviously don't have great photos of the area, maybe this will help a little more.

Property is in CO, as for codes; I don't know how local that one is, and it doesn't really bother me because I don't want the range where it is anyway! So it's a good excuse to move the thing. (If we were to replace the current one with gas, which we might or might not do)

In any case, I would need to live there for a bit and see what works with the table, as well as the rest of the space. (I'm pretty sure I already know I don't like that tight kitchen corner, though.)

I agree the stove is in a poor location. But I think it is best to be clear with regards to code as to whether your local code is more stringent than the national code, or if you are giving advice, know that your code may be more stringent than the code in the poster's area.

As far as national code goes, there is none with regard to a freestanding range and its adjacency to other appliances. Most codes require that the manufacturer's specification requirements be followed. But since a freestanding range essentially has "zero" clearance requirements between it and adjacent base cabinets, the only issue you might have from code standpoint is the vertical side of the refrigerator, which may or may not meet the requirement of flammable surface to one side of the cooktop. If the specification if from the burner, it still might be compliant.

But if you were to pull the range out of its spot, slide it over to where the table is, and plug it in, it would again meet national code requirements. It's a freestanding range, it is allowed to be freestanding with nothing next to it. It wouldn't be a very good location, but it wouldn't be against code.

I am beating a dead horse here, but I bring this up because I think there is a fair amount of advice given with that "ace in the hole" against code. I think this is sometimes cited erroneously and innocently, since it is against good ergonomic practice, so people think that is code, or it is against their local code, which can be much more stringent. But sometimes I think it is cited just to further strengthen someone's position or opinion on something, because who is going to argue with code? But I see "against code" invoked when the national code at least (which is followed in the majority of locations) is completely silent on the subject.

I don't know, it's just what the realtor told me. He has owned a real estate business in this particular resort for 40 years, and is the managing agent in the other building where we own; he knows what he is talking about. He said we can't have an open flame adjacent to the wood side of the built-in refrigerator, so I tend to believe him. He has no reason to tell us otherwise? The current range is fine, it's just gas top that is an issue.

That's correct generally since code requires that manufacturer specs be followed and something like that would be in the specs for a gas range. I had a range that required 3" from the edge of the cooktop which put it about 9" from the burner. So sure, you' have to move it even for minimums. But as Buehl said, the entire layout is problematic.

Yes, it is problematic, which is why I am beseeching you guys for "bright ideas"! :-) It's always good to get the brain jogged somehow.

My suggestion would be as the others have said. I'd move the sink down just enough to get the dishwasher on the left side, and then put an INDUCTION range further down on the right side. Most people who were ardent gas people, have switched to induction and love it. Then you don't have the problem of running gas lines either. You then have the ideal setup for cooking, prep and cleanup without a huge expense of running a gas line there. Plus you won't have to rerun plumbing lines for the sink.

If you are interesting in placing cabinets to the ceiling or otherwise get rid of that space above the cabinets, the easiest solution for the lighting would be to disconnect the lights closest to the cabinets and patch the ceiling, rather than cutting the ceiling up to completely remove the fixtures. If they are no longer "live" or connected to anything you can do that, they are just pieces of metal if they aren't wired.

Then you can replace the light that the provided to the countertop with under cabinet lighting.

It's going to be logistically easier to just shift the sink down far enough to the right to get a DW next to a blind corner base with LeMans II swingout there on the fridge wall. Then move the range onto the sink wall, about 18'' from the wall to the right. Moving pumbing is harder than moving gas or electric lines. Especially in a condo, where you are far more restricted in sructural alterations. Then put a MW wall cabinet there next to the fridge (watch the depth issues with the corner cabinet) and use a prettier hood over the range. Induction would be better for the usual no external venting condo setup. It puts less heat into the room to begin with.

Just a quick idea...and can you make that window any wider?

Can you get cabinets that match these?

To clarify, are you considering replacing the cabinets with new? Or, are you trying to reuse what you have? The former, obviously, would be much easier than the latter - and more flexible!

Is the Kitchen 14'3" x 9'?

Here's the first option I described:

Zone Map:

What about leaving the range where it is and moving the fridge?

SegBrown said:

"No room or inclination to add anything to footprint." Or move the built-in SubZero

Ok, thanks very much all ... and in no particular order:

1. I don't have dimensions yet, but it is not quite that big. The fridge is 30 in. not 36, so that side is more like 8 ft I think. I will measure when I go back up this weekend.

2. Can't enlarge window.

3. Yes, this would include replacing the cabinets. The owner had a local cabinetmaker build the fridge panel, and he already has bid on cabinet replacement (which I haven't seen, but I doubt it addresses what I want to address. Don't know though). Most likely we will reuse the range and DW, as they are fairly new, but change counter, backsplash, sink, and faucet. I really don't want to spend a lot of money here -- it's a condo in the mountains, we don't really cook that much up there (although of course we end up doing Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners for 10 in our tiny condo even when I have a perfectly wonderfully large and efficient kitchen at home that is much better suited for that! lol).

4. Love the induction idea. It's probably not in the budget right now (well, definitely not), but I will keep it in mind when rearranging things. And it's a good reason to hold off on gas.

5. I've been toying with the idea of replacing the table with a counter-height table and stools, and placing it crosswise short end against the wall, sort of like a peninsula, to increase work space. Then we could pull it out when we have to seat someone for a meal down there. Does this make any sense? Again, I'll have to measure things.

Actually since the SZ is a fixed hinge it really can't go anyplace else anyway.

^^Yeah I was thinking that. I don't mind where it is, and in a weird way I kind of like having the range out of sight of the front door, too -- but functionally, for cooking, blech.

So, take off 12" for the wall (from 9' to 8') and add back 6" from the refrigerator and you've only lost 6" from my layout - so the 33" base cabinet is 27" and the 42" upper drops to 36" - not that much of a change!

Regarding the table - how old are you? Don't answer that here! I asked the question for you to think about your age. If you're older, I would think twice about a counter-height table if it's the only table. As we age, counter-height seating becomes less comfortable. If you're still young, then you could go ahead with the note in the back of your mind that when you get older you may want to replace it with a table-height table. Stools are not as comfortable as table-height chairs for anyone.

That being the case - I also suggest designing the kitchen so that it works for you now and in the future - i.e., enough counterspace in the right places instead of counting on the table to be your prep space.

Even now, if your table is used as a Prep Zone, then you will have to clean it off to eat! (And no one can set the table until it's cleaned off.)

If you go with the counter-height table, get stools that have a comfortable foot rail on them - rounded, no corners, and, if possible - a bit of padding?

MIddle aged. :-) But we are tall, I'm the shortest at 5'9", son is 6'6". I think I've already backed off from that idea anyway. Not versatile enough.

Ok, I didn't want to totally disappear on this ... we ended up buying something else, and it won't need remodeling for a while. :-) As always, thanks for the thoughts.