Now I am starting to understand why Firs grown on Firma are uncommon. Sheffield lists the germination rate at 58%, but I have read it's more like 20%. So just getting enough understock alone is an issue. The second issue is that Firma is one of the only firs that does not grow well in the PNW, so it becomes a hassle/challenge for them to grow and offer it. A more southern grower like Cam Forest needs to step up and start offering more options on firma or do custom graft orders like Jason Hupp does.

Well I can help you with several, hair: nordmann, alba 'Variegata' but I remove any variegated shoots on my plant; tentative fraseri x koreana (beautiful tree); x arnoldiana (koreana x veitchii.) I have my own selection of two firs: nordmann 'Lime Lights' & balsamea var. phanerolepis 'Midnight Steel'. A.bal.var.phanerolepis should be geared very well to your climate. I have an Abies recurvata var. ernestii that the original scionwood came from Cornell University, too. I think that would be a pretty decent one for you to try. Lastly, the only concolor I have that's a full size tree is 'Heard', and it's green.

I could send any or all of these to Hupp, or wherever else you would like them sent.

Dax

Most of the firs in the same Rushford grouping as firma are ok on their own roots in DC. I would even feel safe planting the Mediterranean firs like A. pinsapo on a high or sloped site. The worse ones for me and the ones to avoid here (on their own roots) are the Western US firs, and the high altitude/northern tier eastern ones. NB...a lot of PNW liners used to be and still are grafted onto such rootstock! I would avoid the very highest elevation Asian ones like A. squamata (the flaky bark one?) unless grafted...but if my three Abies delavayi make it through this third wet summer for them, and they look very good so far, I will declare them unlikely to have problems. They are very near where R. xanthocodons have died so the root rots are definitely in the soil. They are on a mound, but still. I've had > 20 inches in the past 2 months! I posted in the perennials forum about how some of my mine are drowning.

A. homolepis is in the same group as firma, right?

I saw some at a nursery in VA once. Didn't know at the time that they'd be any better than a balsam. Damn, I should have gotten one.

'homolepis should be a good understock but availability might be very limited since Tree Haven scaled back. I've planted several over the years and don't ever remember losing one. Bud break tends to be earlier than I would prefer. I've got a row of 2 footers hilled out and they must go before next spring?!!!

Can I ask a stupid question? What is the benefit of grafting on A. firma?

"Can I ask a stupid question? What is the benefit of grafting on A. firma?"

To better handle the heat of warmer zones.

tj

Hair: yes homolepis and also holophylla are in the same group and are very good candidates for you.

Johnny: I'd love to have those for grafting! I'll graft whatever you want and any amount too. How many are we talking though?

Dax

Matt: while tj is very-very, correct... it may be easier for your understanding that grafting onto firma increases the heat hardiness. Heat hardiness is just as important as cold hardiness. Firs that are borderline or would never make it on their own roots, but are still considered as heat-tolerant firs when grafted to firma, can change the whole scheme of things.

Dax

Dax: I'll inventory and photograph later in the day....you'd have to pot these as 1 gals or just plant as specimens....or use the leaders as scions and let them "releader"!! lol

The way I understand it, firs have a couple of challenges in warmer climates.

One, is simply tolerance to heat and or humidity. There are a fair number of firs can tolerate some level of heat and humidity, but then there's the issue with soil temperature and moisture. Even some firs that, on the surface can handle hot and dry and/or hot and humid summers, like concolor and Koreana, are not big fans of heavy clay soil, especially if combined with WARM and WET soil conditions. Partly but not entirely due to Phytopthora root rots.

A. firma is very resistant to Phytopthora, and tolerant of warm, moist soils as well. From what I understand, most of that firma group (which includes the species Dax mentioned plus A. pindrow and a few others) also have similar tolerances it is believed. Others, like nordmanniana, are more Phtopthora resistant than most, but less so than firma etc. in the mid-Atlantic and the upper South, these do OK in areas that are sited high enough to never have standing water issues.

A. firma itself isn't the best looking tree at maturity IMHO, so grafting otherwise heat tolerant, but better looking firs onto firma rootstock is the (potentially) winning combo.

"A. firma itself isn't the best looking tree at maturity IMHO"

I think this all depends. Does it look conventionally like what we think a fir looks like, no. Would I take a well grown A. firma over a sickly, say, Abies concolor? Definitely.

Dax: The homolepis are between 2-3' in height..probably good for specimens only.

Abies koreana cones

Abies cilicica

Gorgeous pics, conifer50. Are those all own-root trees in GA?

Those homolepis are gorgeous. I might have to get one just to "grow out" as a species tree. I wish I could remember which nursery had them a few years ago. Somewhere in N. VA.

No grafts here....All originated as plugs from Tree Haven Evergreen Nursery and all are in Northern Georgia!

The combination of hot, warm at night, AND wet - or you could even say uncontrolled wetness - is what allows Phytophthora and other root rot to thrive. Take for example Sonoma Horticultural Nursery about 45 miles N of San Francisco. There's much less marine influence there and summers are in the 80s, but upper 50s at night. There can be hotter spells of course. The owner can grow all of the root rot sensitive rhodies. Obviously they are from summer monsoon climates in Asia, and need summer water. But he can give them just the amount of water they need to get through summer...and in fact probably has a strong incentive not to waste water from his well. Perhaps if he just left the sprinklers running for hours and hours during a hot spell, dousing the garden in the equivalent of 4+ inches of rain in a few hours, perhaps soil temps and moisture levels could get too high and the plants would start to die. But that isn't going to happen.

Or take the Eucalyptus lacrimans I had die one late Aug/early Sept. when I had about 14 inches of rain in a little over 48 hours. It's high elevation, but had seemed fairly heat tolerant until then. It was the wetness that really made the difference...I doubt most of SE Australia can have anything like those rainfall totals accompanied by weeks of high temps and dewpoints. (When SE Australia does have massive heatwaves, it's a dry heat, and there isn't enough precipitable water to have the breaking of the hot spells be accompanied by massive rainfalls) Likewise the A. lasiocarpas and A. grandis I tried to grow. Most of them died after heavy summer rains.

A. firma is particularly resistant because it's from Japan, and grows at very low elevations for a fir. Japan seemingly has both a monsoon, and a "just plain hot" period when rainfall is interspersed with very hot humid sunny spells. In other words, just like the SE US. (OTOH, even the hot, low elevation parts of SW China seem to have cloudier summers where the monsoon rains are more or less a daily event)

I agree, those are great specimen starters. Heck, I haven't been able to keep a koreana on its own roots alive here!

Dax

So Don at at Treehaven said no Abies firma this fall. He also said something about there's been question about the sources of seeds, made it sound like there's a lot of mislabeled seed. Or at least there was.

Which now makes me wonder if I find firma, is it REALLY firma?

If you can still get firma, I wouldn't be reluctant to buy it from another nursery; or, gravitate toward Abies cephalonica, Abies nordmanniana (about the same thing) or homolepis; even pinsapo, holophylla, etc. should all make good rootstocks.

Dax

Hey Dax, Do you remember if Brooks Tree Farm offered "Firma" in past years?

Johnny

Thanks, Dax.

The only places I've found firma, are retail places that are $10/ea or more. I'll keep working on it.

I did find A. homolepis here:

http://www.pikespeaknurseries.net/cgi-bin/ppeak/1NKO000.html

Not sure if anyone knows anything about this nursery, or if these are big enough to graft.

http://www.vanspinesnursery.com/availability/catalog/

Vans has them. Download the catalog

The picture in the Drake's listing immediately looked wrong to me. Then I saw the caption - they used a picture of Abies balsamea!

It's a good thing there's a easy way to check if you're getting the right ones: I'm pretty sure Abies firma is the only scentless fir. Abies chensiensis is close, has a very light scent, but would probably be quite root rot resistant too.

I only bought spruce 1x from Brooks, so I don't recall.

Pikes Peak Nursery does have Nikko fir but they're 3-7". You'd need a good 12" seedling of any fir. You should keep your eyes peeled for 12-18" seedling-firs.

Don at Treehaven will have something compatible I'll assume.

Dax

Vanspine must be using steroids if they can produce a 18" firma in one year!

hair: Did you get response from Western Evergreen?......I did not? which is not the norm!

That's good to know, though I don't know when I'll be able to go by and have a look.

I had an A. concolor in my yard that actually looked pretty good when I bought the house in the mid 2000s. But I think its decline since then helps prove they are short-lived plants in this climate. (relative to most trees!) We are always going to have the possibility of years like this one or 2011, when we get huge amounts of rain in a month or two. The big turning point was Irene-fall 2011, it really started to decline after that spell of > 30 inches of rain in < 40 days. The only functional thing I did in that area, of lightly liming the lawn, should have helped prolong it, if anything. (btw I know the soil near it is basically ok, because the Sichuan pepper I planted near it is growing like crazy, japanese beetle damage notwithstanding. And my firmas during Irene? IIRC one pushed out an additional candle!)

To me it's kind of like Picea pungens. Once in a blue moon you still see a really healthy looking one somewhere in the DC/Baltimore area. That doesn't mean planting them is a good idea.

I'm sure the idea of grafting onto tolerant rootstocks must go back before the 1980s (when JC Raulston first talked about it) so of course, it's possible the Baltimore A. concolor trees were grafted onto something Baltimore-resistant lol.. Back then though it might have been A. nordmanniana not A. firma, and it might have been a happy accident and not on purpose.

Sorry bout that... Vans is wholesale

Some of those places will sell retail. no warranty if they do...but it never hurts to ask.

Great hgtuttle1. Appreciate that chunk of info.

Broken Arrow is still around. I emailed the guy in charge of propagation within the week. Must have been a website glitch.

Dax

Harrison,

That Conifer Quarterly two-piece article was one of the best CQ articles I've read in a while. I'm sorry to learn that much of the article was lost. Regardless, great job!

Dean

Davidrt28, if you like strong tree-scents, Table Mnt pine is the winner. I can smell it downwind even in the dead of winter, let alone a hot day. This time of yr before the new growth has turned upright & hardened, it's a cascade of sharp needles:

Pinus pungens is a neat tree in it's native environment. I've never thought of using it as a landscape tree, but I imagine it would have its merits.

Hair, judge for yourself (center pine):

H.T., good to see you created an account here. Please post a pic of your A. spectabilis!

Not sure I'll have room for a table mountain pine but that one is nice. One tree whose odor I've started to notice is my Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Green Arrow'. On the right kind of warm still day, you can easily smell it in that part of the garden. The same was true of my former A. concolor, although given the relative size advantage it had, I'd guess the cedar emits more volatiles per unit surface area.

"Which now makes me wonder if I find firma, is it REALLY firma?"

As I said, very easy to tell. Essentially no foliar odor, unless you practically snort them ;-) No one else has mentioned a scentless fir, and I've smelled every one I've met in person and they all have much more odor than A. firma, except maybe A. chensiensis but it is still easy to tell them apart. Actually, A. holophylla is pretty weak too, but still stronger than A. firma. (all 3 should make fine rootstocks for the mid-Atlantic/upper South)

It's been several years back but here's Abies vejarii (Porterhowse clone) grafted on Abies firma by Jason Hupp/Western Evergreen....my Abies from 2013 grafting were on A. bornmuelleriana.

So it is still alive?

Yeah, as of 1 hour ago! lol....I've got another one out at the farm in it's permanent locale...same clone.

Here's the specimen at the farm in its protective cage. I think it'll take off this spring as the caliper at ground level is approx. 3/4". Getting a leader trained seem the biggest challenge at the moment.

So a few updates:

Still can't really find graft-size Abies firma, hollophylla, etc...

However, I do have at least anecdotal evidence that Abies balsamea var. phanerolepis might do OK on its own roots here, at least for a decade or two - a Christmas Tree farm near Dayton, MD has them growing in a cut-your-own farm (along with other hard-to-grow conifers for this area like Pseudotsuga), we cut one for our Christmas tree this year, and it looked gorgeous!

Now, it may behave like concolor, and Picea pungens, where it looks good for 30 years max, then falters...but who knows?

Definitely should do well grafted onto firma or something similar.

Yeah I think that could be the issue with Balsam fir. Sure they can last long enough to get to Christmas tree size, but are they going to last any longer? I remember a Christmas tree farm somewhere out in Loudoun County telling me when I was a teen that the firs (no specific species discussed, was just barely advanced enough back then to know what a fir was!) were very hard to grow and a lot of them died, so he had to charge more for them. He mostly focused on spruces I think.

My wife hates spruces for Christmas trees, she says they're too "prickly". Which I guess is true.

Worst problem is needle start dropping immediately!