What you've chosen to do or not do results in your getting repeated tick bites that risk your health. Instead of using repellents whose safety is accepted. You think but don't know you could react to them, so you don't use them.

It's your choice, but the adverse health consequences you've described and continue to suffer from suggest to me you'd be better off trying a different approach. And better off thinking more broadly about what can be done to limit your exposure to these dangerous pests.

Good luck and best wishes, of course.

Oh, of course.

As I mentioned briefly above, the CDC for a long time recommended against DEET. Not only is it risky, but they (and others) found it wasn't all that effective against ticks. A lot depends on the concentration. You up the concentration, and while it still doesn't kill ticks, it has a better chance of keeping them away. But it also has a better chance of causing altered mental states, disorientation, seizures, etc. Oh, and it destroys some synthetic fabrics.

You think but don't know you could react to them, so you don't use them.

Absolutely. I suppose you'd like me to know for sure by trying it out. Yes, that could be called scientific. That's probably how someone discovered those beautiful red berries of deadly nightshade are . . . um . . . deadly. Oh, and lots of other poisonous stuff.

But I've learned to be more cautious. I don't process toxins as well as most people, which is why I have to stay away from potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, and a few other things. Solanine is a poison, but present in these foods in a small enough quantity not to be harmful. However, it harms me big time.

So now I'm saying (in my post above) that a couple of safer products have been found to be more effective than DEET. That's good news, right? But you use this as an opportunity to take me to task for not using DEET. Surely you have something better to do, Snidely.

Perhaps I should have spelled out that I plan to try one or both of the top performers. In fact, after I posted I ordered a couple of bottles of the Repel (one for me and one for my son's family).

Thanks for including me, Susan. Yes...I've read about the two items you've found and I gave some thought to trying the Sawyer Fisherman Formula. But...and this is not a testimonial/criticism against either suggested application...I've had such success with DEET for sooo many years that I'm loath to spend money on something new. I'm very cautious with its application because I do tend to have instant and negative skin reactions to almost everything...but applying it to my shoes and clothing has been a very successful application...and if I'm going into deep woods...I wear a wide brimmed hat that I spray with DEET.

Life in the northeast...and now crossing the country...is getting scarier by the day...almost. Ticks are too prevalent and their population has discouraged me from many forest/field areas. I've kept up with the progress of methods of tick control for years because I was [and still would be] an avid outdoors person. As field mice are prolific carriers...making birth control applications available in the wild for mice has had some positive effect. But these types of programs are not all inclusive success wise. What's needed is a human preventative vaccine for Lyme disease and medical science is working on it now. Until it's available...caution is the word of the day.

Alisande, I think you're blinded by your good intentions. DEET isn't an insecticide or toxin. It's not a poison at all. It doesn't kill ticks or mosquitoes.

Take this comment with the affection I intend it to carry, I think if you saw a bottle of "Essential oils and organic essences of tropical deet" you'd put it on your ice cream.

As I understand it (from a just completed google search) , insects bite based upon a smell sensation. Deet and its competitors act by confusing/disrupting that sensation when the insect lands on you. So that they can't detect that you're really something they want to bite. So they don't.

We have ticks in my area off in the boondocks but not too much otherwise and few mosquitoes. I remember once on trip to Florida (very out of character for me) with the kids visiting the Disney properties, there had been an outbreak of encephalitis in the area. We drenched ourselves with a Deet containing repellent and insisted all wear long pants and sleeves in the evening. We had no problems as we watched others foolishly swatting off mosquitoes.

I do hope you find something to use that will work and give you reliable protection.

From CDC fact sheet about DEET.

Be safe with DEET :

• Do not allow children under 10 years of age to apply repellent themselves.

• Do not apply to young children’s hands or around eyes and mouth.

• Do not breathe in, swallow, or get into the eyes (DEET is toxic if swallowed.)

• Do not put repellent on wounds or broken skin.

Susan, count me as another who is very sensitive to DEET. The chemical is absorbed into blood then circulated to all parts of the body. What happens then depends upon the individual.

My hands tingle, and my lips and tongue become numb....the same reaction I get when exposed to a pesticide, some cleaning agents, chemical scents, and other toxins. All of those symptoms are associated with the temporarily impaired liver function I have to deal with when accidentally exposed to certain substances.

Some years ago, in South Carolina, I had an outdoor staff of 30-40 men and women. Fully 20% had bad reactions to the Deep Woods Off I supplied. A couple actually became agitated after using it, something I learned was a fairly common side effect.

One of the pro shops sold something called (watchout....the name is cutsie) PEST OFF Mosquito Frustragent, lol. It was composed of a few different botanical oils, I can't remember right now, but it was extremely effective. We were dealing with sand gnats, no-see-ums, and mosquitoes and cannot speak about the efficacy against ticks.

I'm so glad to be living in an area where biting insects are practically non-existent. But if my circumstances were different, I'd be trying something with Picaridin, I think. And I'd find some of the PEST OFF or similar product to use, as well.

If I lived in tick territory, I'd be very tempted to don a net body suit , along with repellents.

just wondering -- does no one use a tick mangement spray program for their property? Granted, it might not be for everyone, but I am here to tell you that in MA, where ticks are prevalent, this is how I deal with them after having 36 ticks on me one summer a few years ago (both dog tick and Lyme disease ticks). As my husband got Lyme disease twice 30 years ago, I am freaked out by them. Since doing the tick management program the past 5 years, I have not had a single tick on me. Peace of mind! And in keeping with the original post, I do uses DEET myself, just to be certain....

Rhizo, I'm glad you shared your experience. I meant to add above that when I had my DNA tested I learned why I react to so many toxins. Yup, it's all about the liver. I can't help wondering if my gene mutations are shared by other members of my family. Perhaps this explains why my cousin died of unexplained sudden liver failure. (one thing we know is she ate wild mushrooms that didn't make anyone else sick), and possibly why my mother died from cleaning a rug.

Anne, I don't blame you for not switching products. I'm a great believer in not fixing something that "ain't broke."

Take this comment with the affection I intend it to carry, I think if you saw a bottle of "Essential oils and organic essences of tropical deet" you'd put it on your ice cream.

Snidely, I think I know what you're saying, but I get the impression you must think of me as a hippie (well, an aging hippie), blindly seduced by anything labeled organic. Now that I think about it, it's not an unreasonable assumption, considering that I live on an old farm where we grow a lot of vegetables and used to manufacture (organic) tofu. But the truth is I'm more discerning than that. Really.

Roxanna, please tell us more. My cousin and I were just discussing this the other day. We assumed our properties were too large to make spraying practical, plus there's the matter of what chemicals are used. But we really know nothing about it.

I have property on both sides of the road, and my son and his family and I cover a lot ground in our gardening activities. I suspect spraying would not be affordable. Also, I assume anything that kills ticks kills insects and spiders too. One might think this would make me happy, but it doesn't. I've heard of spraying with garlic, but somehow I don't find that appealing. :-)

HI Susan,

Permethrin is toxic to cats, but only in its wet form. If you spray your clothing somewhere where the cats have no access, allow the clothes to dry completely, you should be fine. If you are still concerned, I would wear the clothing outside and change before coming inside and store the clothing away from the kitties. Good luck!

Thanks, Tamara! I still have quite a bit of it, so maybe I can figure something out.

Thanks for the above links, Susan. I ordered some of the repel. I have been treated twice in the last 2 years for lyme, but I caught it really early after finding tick bites. A couple of months ago, I took a 3 week course of doxy and could only tolerate 2 weeks because it started making me nauseated no matter how I took it. The stomach pains lasted for a week after I stopped taking the med. The first time I took it was capsule form and that didn't bother me at all, but these were pills. I know, I know you should always finish your course of antibiotics but I just couldn't tolerate them. Luckily, no symptoms.

Uh-oh . . . the pharmacy gave me the pills yesterday. Up until now I've used only the capsules. They offered me a choice, and said there was no difference between the two other than the price. The pills were $10 cheaper, so I chose them. I hope that doesn't turn out to be a mistake.

Amoxicillin can treat Lyme too, but doxy seems to be the gold standard.

Best way to counteract an antibiotic is with a probiotic, my doctor says. I take this one when I do. Never get an upset stomach. Just take one when you take the doxy.

Good advice, Rob. I used to rely on yogurt, but with doxy (and perhaps other antibiotics) you shouldn't take anything containing calcium or magnesium within hours of taking the pill.

Alisande ~ the tick management program I use is by Bartlett Tree Co. They do it twice a season (May-June) as a perimeter spray -- it covers about 2 acres in my case, along the woods and stone walls. The perimeter spray costs about $400/year and IMO is worth every penny. As I said, I haven't had a single tick on me in the years I have done this, and believe me, I plan to do it as long as I live here! Here is a link you may find informative -- this is not the company I use, but as you will see they link the company I do use.

http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/perimeter_spray

Alisande, the active ingredients cited in the perimeter spray is deadly to any arthropod....all insects, all arachnids; all aquatic animals such as fish and amphibians are harmed, as are any small or young mammals (cats are especially sensitive) and YOU.

rhizo ~ whatever Bartlett Tree Co. uses in their perimeter spray does not kill arthropods on my property. I have always had and continue to have numerous frogs, toads, red efts and newts here, as well as many spiders, pill bugs (!), dragonflies and butterflies as well as lots of different types of bees. Behind the cultivated part of my yard is a vernal swamp which remains healthy. We have populations of cottontails, deer and coyote come thru on an ongoing basis, and many species of birds including Eastern Bluebirds nesting this spring for the first time since I've lived here (a true thrill for me as I have not seen one since I was a young child sixty years ago).

Certainly some folk such as Alisande may not wish to use a perimeter spray for ticks as they have a particular sensitivity -- but, for me, with the increase in Lyme disease as well as the "new" Powassan problem, the benefits of being tick-free out-weigh the alternative.

Thanks, Roxanna and Rhizo. After reading about where the spraying is most effective, I realize I really must bite the bullet and return the remains of my perennial beds (one of which is partly shaded) to a mowable state. It's a sad task, one I've been putting off, but it appears the time has come.

The article says ticks aren't a problem on sunny lawns, but thrive in damp, shaded areas; therefore, spraying is done mostly at a property's perimeter, at the edge of the woods. Our many fruit trees have created more than the usual shaded areas, but I think (hope) if we keep the grass mowed under them they shouldn't be a problem. However, my beds of tall (and these days weedy) perennials will have to go.

Decades ago, when our previous property was sprayed (along with the entire county) for Gypsy Moths, I had a metallic taste in my mouth for days. I'm remembering what my veterinarian said once about having to wear latex gloves when she administers certain products because they cross the skin barrier and end up in her mouth.

So yeah, I think I'll have to pass on the spraying. But your information was useful, Roxanna, and I appreciate it.

Talk about timing -- my Bartlett guy just arrived to do the second application for ticks! I asked him again about the danger to critters and he said that the concentration of chemicals is extremely low -- they use 10 ounces of product to 100 gallons of water, Just enough to take care of ticks without affecting anything else.

I'm sorry, Alisande, that you won't be able to do this. Hope you will stay tick-free! =)

Thanks, Roxanna. I guess they can keep the concentration low because ticks are so small. That's one good thing--although if ticks were larger we might be able to spot and remove them before they do any harm.

When you first posted I gave a quick check to see if any of these spraying services operate in my area. If they do, most are operating under the radar. Strange, considering that this area of PA is now considered a hotbed of tick activity.

Although I did find one that says this in its advertising:

Our exterminators will arrive in unmarked vans to stop the neighbors from knowing that you are having tick infestation and they will do the exercise safely and quietly without raising any suspicion.

I thought that was pretty funny.

Alisande,
I've said it before, but I'll repeat that I got rid of a tick problem in my last yard (and yes, it was in a shady undergrowth area) by dusting it with wettable sulfur. You can find it in your garden center. (It also worked great at GS camp on shoes and ankles. Ticks hate it.)
I'd be just a wee bit cautious of spraying, since it often kills beneficials, including pollinators. You may want to read up on the synthetic pyretherins, which is what the mosquito spraying companies around here use, before you let them spray.
Good luck.

Roxanna, just so you know....there isn't any pesticide that takes care of only the ticks. As a matter of fact, the ticks are pretty darned tough. The person you spoke to was either lying or misinformed. I would suspect the latter, if he was just the applicator.

The comment about using 'only ten ounces for a hundred gallons of water' is a smoke screen.....a meaningless response that sounds good to the customer. The dilution rate depends upon the concentration of the active ingredient. I promise you, the rate that you were quoted was exactly what is needed to get the job done. It may very well have been 10 oz./100 gal.....or half that! The only thing that counts is what comes out of the hose and that will always be just what it takes to kill ticks, the tough guys.

The non-target animals....the butterflies, lightning bugs and their beneficial larvae, bees, any insect, as a matter of fact, frogs, toads, lizards, and salamanders are all very sensitive. They came at peak bee activity time, judging by the time of your post. Bees end up taking it back to the hive. Grrrr, that's a cardinal rule for pesticide application: avoid spraying when bees are active.

Cats, because they clean themselves, are probably the mammal most likely to be affected....other than those individuals who are very old, ill, immune deficient, very young, taking medications that affect the liver, and more. Pyrethroids have been found in milk.

Alisande, the unmarked vans are hilarious.

The technician's comment seems like double-talk to me too.

The cat effect of the spray is something to consider. Maybe there are no outside cats in her immediate neighborhood. (there are none in mine). Or there are and there's cause for concern. Are there other agents that are safe for cats?

We periodically have rodents in my area (yeah, maybe because there are no outside cats). I request our pest control service to use traps instead of poison to avoid a cat or dog ingesting a poisoned rat or mouse. .

But you can't trap ticks. When human health or safety is involved, there's a pecking order to consider. I don't think Roxanna should feel guilty about consequences to bugs in a small part of her yard as a result of what she does to have a safe area for herself and her family. She does what's right for her and others will have other decisions.

No one takes tick bites or Lyme disease lightly anymore.

Gardenspice, thank you; I'll look into it. I won't be doing any spraying, but dusting with sulfur might be a possibility. It also might not. I'm going to sound like such a fragile little flower here (not even close to the truth!), but believe it or not I have a sulfur issue. Since childhood I've had a bad allergy to sulfa (I used to think sulfa and sulfur were unrelated, but that's not true), and MSM (methylsulfonylmethane), an ingredient in many arthritis remedies, puts me in great pain.

I found out when I had my DNA tested (such a useful tool) that I have a gene mutation that prevents me from processing sulfur properly. It builds up in my system, depleting serotonin and possibly creating ammonia. Not a good thing. Sulfur is an essential element, present in so many foods and so beneficial to us, that I wouldn't want to stop eating it completely. But when I cut down on it, I feel noticeably better. How it might/might not affect me in my garden, I have no idea.

If I can't use it, maybe my son can on his property.