Graph paper - your new best friend.

Make up a Wish list vs need list and that is different for everyone. In my kitchen it was all about the counter space whereas others would have put in a wall oven I opted for counters. My kitchen is 10' X 20' - no island obviously.

Oh for me.. all about the stove and then counter space....hence why I opted to not add another window as it would take away the storage I needed to keep things off my friggin counters.. heh
The only thing that has a permanent spot would be my Kitchenaid.. because I use it all the time, but I saw something one time on the web where they had it mounted to some cabinet device so it was easier to just pull out and use... not that I need help lifting it, but it was cool ;)

The question will be, what can the cabinet people DO..... until I see what they are capable of, then I will not know what to ask for. For now, I just want basic layout. Then I will meet with them and see what we swap out and what we turn into drawers etc.

One thing I hope they are helpful with that is annoying to me is a good silverware drawer. We have a basic drawer with a plastic tray and the stupid thing slides backwards and the silverware always ends of behind that after you open and close the drawer a couple times...so, will look for a custom silverware tray if possible.

Then, spice racks and easy access cabinets, i.e. that lazy susan idea seems nice or at least shelves that slide out like in a fridge.

Russ

I can't tell you how often I've been bugged by a magazine's description of a featured kitchen as "small"--usually at least twice the size of my own. But they can also be very sloppy about including the breakfast nook floorspace in with the kitchen (even when it is functionally a separate room), and, in an open floorplan, where the kicthen boundary is (the outside edge of the island? Or do you have to include space for the island seating as well?)

Your kitchen is 32% larger than the combined space of my kitchen and scullery (less romantic than it sounds--it's a 1911 layout), and I have plenty of room. You'll be fine.

A "scullery"?

Is that like a butler's area?

Scullery! I love those :)

Here's a link to the definition of a scullery...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scullery_%28room%29

But I would definitely want a romantic one with lots of windows and glass uppers or open shelves for dishes!

Found the scullery link with pictures!

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/pdf/IH013044.pdf

10 x 10 was long considered an ideal kitchen, and it's still used to price cabinets (that is, when you see an ad saying, "These cabinets $$$", the small print will specify that's for a 10 x 10 kitchen.

Today's kitchens have grown, and people on this thread tend towards oversized houses with oversized kitchens. The biggest space hogs are islands; because you need space on two sides of an island, they drive the space upwards quicker than anything else. Another thing driving the size up is the demand for oversized appliances; think twice about whether you actually will use those items.

To muddy the waters, people aren't consistent on whether they include pantries and eat-in spots as part of the kitchen.

Don't fall into the "bigger is better" mindset. My current house has the biggest kitchen I've ever owned; it's also the worst kitchen. Though I have 35+ feet of linear cabinet space, apparently NO thought went into the planning. Nothing is convenient to where it should be. Who thought a desk smack-dab in the middle was a good idea? I have good lighting in about 3' of the whole kitchen, so that's where I do all my prep -- and it's wedged up against the stove. Reaching the pantry and refrigerator requires walking through the whole kitchen. It's a galley style with a peninsula, and the two sides of the galley are about a foot too far apart for comfort; that is, the two sides don't work together.

In thinking back over the kitchens I've had in various places, the best was a "broken D" style. That is, a small U + a small straight run across the back. It was well laid out: The refrigerator and food storage was on the straight run ... the sink, stove and prep areas were all conveniently located together. It had loads of cabinet storage and countertop space.

The house we're building will have something like that: It'll be a U + a door to a walk-in pantry across the back. It'll be 10x13. Storing things in a pantry is considerably cheaper than storing them in expensive cabinetry topped by more expensive granite. Plus it's convenient to see everything laid out in front of you on nice, open shelves.

Consider, too, that if you build a modest-sized kitchen, it's easier to afford the top-quality cabinets and the granite you really want.

I suggest you start by laying out all the things you want to do /all the things you need to store in your kitchen ... and mentally go through the motions of preparing a meal in your proposed kitchen. When I did this, I found myself cutting my plans down ... and down ... and down.

Also, it depends on how many people are using the kitchen at once. A small kitchen is great for one cook, but when you have two or three....that island or extra prep spaces can be very handy!

My mom is moving in with us and I have a fairly small kitchen with no island. I'm trying to reconfigure our laundry/pantry space to serve as a cute scullery/extra work space. That would be perfect :)

I agree that it makes more sense to have a smaller kitchen with good, nearby storage like a big walk-in pantry. My kitchen is 9x13. The layout makes it feel bigger than that. We can easily have three working in the kitchen at a time, four can fit but it starts feeling a bit more crowded. However, I would not have the storage necessary if I didn't have a large combo laundry/pantry room next door. I am really happy with the size of my space. The fact that a wall came down opening it up to the dining area also just makes the space feel so much larger.

Prior to the wall removal and partial remodel (not done yet!), I would have described it as a very small kitchen. It felt closed in, had less than half the counter space it does now, and was comfortably only as a one person kitchen. Two if you worked together well due to the crowding.

So I don't think square footage tells the whole story. A smaller place can live large and a larger place can live small.

Openings and windows make a difference, too. Our kitchen is 10.5 x 17. But walkway openings limit cabinets along 7.5' of the perimeter, and 14' for two windows eliminates a lot of upper cabinetry. So, size isn't necessarily the largest factor.

Well, I tell ya what.. tons of info out of this thread, I appreciate it. Having a blast just planning and chatting about the new house. We have been in a holding pattern while we tried to sell the current house and are hopefully in the home stretch since we have a contract on it.. so now I get to have some fun.

My wife is like, "didn't we already 'plan' the kitchen? and I am like, "well, we planned the appliances and how large it will be.. but now, we have to figure out the structure of the cabinets and placement etc.."

She is not the cook in the house.. lol

Hrm... so.. I think they made a very crude 3d sketch after they added the appliances. It does not look like the kitchen other than, I think, 'trying' to show the cabinets... but none of the colors etc look right.. still fun looking at it ;) My printer is out or I would print up some graph paper and start trying to move things around and see what all I could come up with. I tried locating free websites that let you design a kitchen but man are they clunky.

If you use Paint, you can download this graph and rearrange the elements.

Oh, please don't build yourself a barrier island. And give yourself some landing space between your range and ovens, ok...oops, see that you're addressing that. Phew!

Here's a link to awesome explanations of NKBA kitchen planning standards. They will help you think through your layout tremendously. 31 Kitchen Design Rules, Illustrated

jrbarnard and Lavender Lass: In the case of my 1911 house, the scullery is the separate 6x6 room adjacent to the kitchen that has the sink. With cabinets on opposite walls, it is obviously cramped (it probably goes without saying that the cabinets are not standard depth on both sides). There is no sink at all in the kitchen proper, which really means it isn't a proper kitchen if you don't include the scullery. It's definitely NOT romantic. It's a wacky and annoying holdover from how kitchens were done a century ago.

A barrier island? Explain pls

Russ

A barrier island blocks the path from the stove to the fridge( (or sink to stove, etc.) Many folks on here have redesigned their kitchens to fix that problem. A barrier island will make it feel like the island is in the way rather than being an asset to the kitchen.

yea, I hear ya.. but I see no other way to redesign the kitchen since I have only 1 window.. and the sink has to go there.

With that limitation, no matter what I put on either side, I will be away from something. I don't really mind as I tend to pull everything I need out at once and then prep, so the larger island is more important, to me, than where the fridge is located.

Now, that being said.. if the dang fridge were not so large.. maybe it wold fit elsewhere, but I honestly do not know where else it would go.. so.. barrier or not, it is what it is, I guess.

R

A barrier island is never a good idea. You're literally creating a barrier to your workflow. Islands are not always the best use of space in a kitchen. They seems to work most effectively with an L-shape kitchen or a long wall and the island makes it more of a galley.

With a U-shape kitchen, the island is often better replaced with a peninsula. If the sink must go under the window and the fridge and range are on opposite walls....what about moving the ovens. Maybe something like this?

I'll sit down with the design people for the kitchen and figure out what works best for us. Again, to each their own...what may seem like a hindrance to one may be fine to another... but I will see what we can work out. I, personally, do not see an island as a barrier, but that is just me. I will, however, think differently when I can see it on paper.. in a 3d drawing with what all we have picked out. It looks fine in 2D for me.. but you may be right.

The fridge is still like 4-6 ft wide.. so not sure an oven will fit over there and the range will be used more than the oven. Also, I will have an island, even if it is a small one. The kitchen will not feel right, to me, with all that open space in the center, so...not sure the oven is going to be an impact on that side.

Russ

I don't know if this has been mentioned already but you might want to do some pretend cooking sessions with the island plan and the peninsula plan. Just honestly walk through each noting the number of steps, estimating the time it takes you to do things, where you will put things while working, where you will want to store the items you need, yada yada. Many of us find that exercise very helpful.

I had a plan similar to yours and they had put an island in the middle. I took it out and was glad I did. If you want an "island" maybe the best thing is a moveable cart in the center for you to use for prepping, etc. Something you can move around easily.

Otherwise, you might find working in a U shaped kitchen actually works quite well.

Having an island just because it's the "in" thing or for "resale" is not the right reason to have an island. Why not post your full house plan in 2d with dimensions and maybe we can help you.

I will try to lay it out on the floor and test it, but fyi.. I am not doing any of this for the "in thing" or for "resale" I am doing it so I can have counter space. I never seem to have enough prep room.

I totally get what you are all saying, I do. I am just saying I do not think I can arrange it any differently. I have written down my priorities as far as the kitchen goes and the window with the sink under it is at the top. To me, it is like the 'center' and I think the sink needs to be there. Then I have counter space. An island, to me, gives me the ultimate space and my current kitchen has an island.

Yes, people that do not cook much may want it because it is the "in thing" but to me, it is about counter space and I am really not too worried about walking to the fridge from the stove.

Sure, I would love to have the fridge closer, but I already took out the wall between the dining room and the kitchen. To put that back in would close up the house, in my mind.

When I sit down with the kitchen designers, I will try to work with them to see where else we can move things. Maybe we can move the window to the corner and thus free up room for the stove to go on that wall and make the whole thing irrelevant, we will see.

Oh, I will post the whole plan in 2D in a few.

I am not trying to be stubborn.. heh.. I am looking closely at the L shaped look, I am just really a counter space person and trying to get the most I can get. I like to spreeeeaaaddd out when I cook lol, and walking a few extra feet to the stove is not at the top of my priority list BUT..I am trying to be efficient also, so keeping an open mind to your suggestions, just cannot wrap my head around what I gain/lose... so.

Will post the 2d of the entire thing. Let's see if this works.. sec.. (disregard the water heater markings.. heh.. )

Thanks!

Russ

Ok.. just thinking out loud as I DO like the input.. pls do not take my responses as totally discounting you guys..

The "L-shape" issue I have is.. I have an "l-shape at the ranch house. In order to get the kind of counter space I love, and add cabinets, I have to go around the "l" at the ranch to get to the cabinets on the outer side on the wall.

So, I would need to not add cabinets that are beyond reach from inside the kitchen. To add those uppers there would get a lot more annoying.

Subsequently, that wold mean no lowers on the outside of the L.

Drawing it all out on graph paper to see what options I have, but with a 79": wide fridge, it gets full fast.

BTW, I also recognize that many of you folks that have posted about "barrier islands" are simply devout haters of "barrier islands", heh.. and maybe for a good reason, but just because one person hates them does not mean that are a bad thing. Remember, to each their own and we all have things about kitchens we love and things we hate. I hate a sink without a view... hence why I have this issue as I have one window wall. If I had two, this would not be an issue.

All that being said, the island is not the problem, it is the "walk" from the stove to the fridge. If the fridge was on the connecting or same wall, the island would not be at question, so, it comes down to two things:

1 - Can I get the fridge and stove on the same wall?

2 - Can I live with the walk from the fridge to the stove.

Neither is right or wrong, it is just what it is.

I am not sure what the answer is, hence why I am enjoying the input. It is really making me think about each and every piece of this kitchen. I am currently drawing it all out on graph paper as much to scale as possible and mixing and matching placement. I even thought about making the window a solid non-opening window to see if the range would go there, but I really like the idea of the sink having a view and a window I can open. I do not think I can have a window above the range unless it is solid.

If that dadgum garage was not on the outside of the wall, I would be able to move the sink to it :P

Russ

Sorry for all the posts.. but having fun.. heh

Saw this posted. How would this 'look' work out?

http://st.houzz.com/simgs/2ec18a530bc4ea0d_8-1000/contemporary-kitchen.jpg

The fridge is not behind the island, really...

I am looking through a lot of old posts and I can see examples given that have the fridge at the 'end wall' of the island like this one. Would it still constitute a 'barrier island'? then?

What I was thinking was this: Currently I have 48" between the island and the sink. If I bumped that up to like 60".. then there would still be a 5'x6' island.. but a LOt more room between the sink and the island and thus, probably easier to navigate.

I will scan in a drawing in a few.. but don't laugh.. it is fairly crude :P

Russ

jrb, I hope you don't mind if I post the basic plan from your other thread, with my modifications, and nancy's suggestion to move the oven. It still has the prep sink, which I understand that you don't want, so ignore that. (The strange white lines are the former prep paths, from when the fridge was on the other side--ignore those, too.)

Oh I do not mind at all. I am really enjoying the input. I just wish I was at the point I could sit down with the designer and good software and "see" what it looks like in a 3d model.. heh. Trust me.. I have multiple copies of graph paper in front of me trying to figure out how not to give up a huge fridge.. heh.. but I really love the fridge going in. It is just 79" wide.. hence why it is hard to figure how to move it.

If I moved it onto the wall with the range, there would be.. maybe.. 12" left over? and that is a generous maybe,.
Not sure if it would even come close to fitting on the sink wall.. hence my issue,.

Oh wait a second.. I have not considered splitting the fridge and freezer.. you may be on to something there.. back to the drawing board! lol

Russ

Yes, the assumption was that the fridge and freezer columns can be installed separately. If that's not possible, or desirable, ignore above plan. I do well to get my ideas across on a graph--3D is beyond my capabilities.

Oh they can be installed separate, so trying to see how that would look. I am assuming, again, that the fridge needs to go by the range and the freezer can go wherever.

So, with that assumption, I am looking at whether we install the freezer with the oven and the fridge with the range.

R

Oh, I missed how big your fridge/freezer column was. I would then put the freeer section at the bottom of the run with the fridge on it. Across from the DO's.

Personally, I wouldn't want the range in-between the fridge and the sink. If two people were working, this could just be too much criss-crossing over the different work zones, imho. Even with nice 4-foot aisles.

How about something like this? Ignore the gray boxes to the right. This keeps you from having to walk around the island to access the major appliances and gives you decent work counters and places to spread out if extra counter space is needed.

It occurred to me that if you split the fridge and freezer, you could flip the kitchen layout, to keep the fridge next to the pantry. But then venting might be an issue.

I'm on my laptop now and able to get a look at the link you posted. The reason that photo works better is exactly as you said, the fridge is near the end of the island, and if you drew a line from the fridge to the range top, it might only nick the corner of the island. That would work well. You want to keep the line linking the fridge and stove so that it doesn't intersect the corner of the island by more than 12".

Here's one idea. I split up the fridge and freezer, but maybe they could still stay together where I put the oven, then you'd have 3 tall items in a row. I'm often baking something in the oven at the same time as I use the cooktop, so I like to keep those items close together to save my sanity.

Your workflow would greatly benefit from a prep sink, so I put one in the island. It might be nice to incorporate some butcher block in the island next to the sink if that appeals to you. Now you have everything you need for an efficient work triangle on the one side of the kitchen, and the cleanup is out of the way on the other side. The cleanup and the prep share the window in the corner, which is the same size window as you had before, but it now uses the wall over the DW as a big reflector, bouncing a little more light into the room.

*What is the area off the master bedroom? Is it enclosed space, or just a deck? If it's a deck, you could easily center the range on the back wall with windows on either side. Most of the work in the kitchen is prep, so it's nice to have windows to look out while your prepping (although I totally understand about wanting the sink under the window, too!)

Also, I stuck a tall cabinet next to the freezer at the end of the sink run that could hold brooms and cleaners. It would open out toward the dining area.

I want to play around with the peninsula idea, but don't have time at the moment.

Here's my first idea (with your idea next to it. I was cutting and pasting. : ))

Question - Couldn't I just move the entire fridge into the middle of the wall on the right and leave everything else where it was? I mean, if all we are talking about is keeping the line from the fridge from intersecting the island more than 12 inches, then if I center the stove more on that wall and the fridge more on the other wall.. then they would not intersect the island more than 12 inches and we can call it done, right?

Russ

You could--and I think that was funkycamper's thought, but it breaks up the nice long counter on the right, and leaves a short, undedicated counter between the freezer and pantry. That could be your coffee station, drop zone/recharging station, etc. Just plan something for that corner, so that it doesn't become a clutter station. ;)

Quick rearrangement:

Well, the island can be 5x8 so will give me all the prep room I need, I am thinking. I also still have a lot of counter space on each side of the sink.

Just something to play with.

R

As you mentioned, each person has preferences--my preference is to have the fridge on the edge of the kitchen, where others can access it without coming too far into the work space, but my fridge is located about where the fridge is in the first plan I posted above, on the same side as the range and prep area. Yours will be on the other side, so having it located deeper into the kitchen will work. I was enjoying the thought of the long stretch of counter, envisioning cooky sheets lined up and waiting for the oven to pre-heat. :)

Oh, another thought--I've always wanted a proofing drawer, but don't have room. Well, I could make room, but I don't want to give up a wall of vintage cabinets. If you'll be using both ovens simultaneously for baking, you might consider an under-counter proofing drawer. The second oven would also work well for proofing yeast doughs, if not in use for baking.

Well, I know you all hate barrier islands.. heh.. but I may opt to go ahead with it since I am like you.. I love me long stretches of uninterrupted counters.

Now, yea, that would mean I would have to walk around the island to get to the fridge, but I do that now, I just did not know it was an issue.. lol

Sorta reminds me of that Bugs Bunny cartoon where he goes, "I never studied law" when encountering the law of gravity.. :P

All a moot issue till I can "see" it in a better light. I am sure I will get to sit down with someone with better software soon. If I was not so stuck on that huge fridge setup, it would all be a moot issue too :P

Russ

This is what I would do....if you want the island (and you have room for this one) then I'd have seating on two sides, with a prep sink. This plan REALLY needs a prep sink :)

Having fridge and cooktop next to each other is so much more convenient....then pantry, freezer, microwave and oven can all be on the other side. This keeps 'snackers' away from the main prep area...and puts clean up right in the middle, easily reached from both sides.

I added a few windows (even without much view) because extra light is always nice! Again, this is what I would do, so it may not work for you, but it would be a very functional, light, enjoyable kitchen, IMHO.....

LL, I love the extra windows, just for light, if not for the view. Jrb, several members have posted recently about glass block windows, and backsplash windows above the range. The view would be obscured, but the additional light would be wonderful, IMO.

Lavender, you are awesome. I will take all of these with me when I sit down with the cabinet people and go "ok.. show me what we can do here"

Thank you all for the great input. Hope you like whatever we come up with when we finish the design plans.

Russ

Yes, I agree with Mama Goose's thoughts that a long stretch of counter like that needs to be designated for a certain use or it could become a clutter catcher. If you would reconsider an island prep sink, I think it would open up more options for you concerning fridge placement, work zones, etc. If you are a baker, it could even help with creating a dedicated baking center.

I am ok with reconsidering an island sink. I think that is more than a reasonable suggestion, even if I do love a clutter free island.. heh.

I am on hold with the builder now to ask for a cost on an island sink. ;)

Russ

I really like LL's plan. I think it would work very well for what you need. And honestly a prep sink will not break the bank.

I just spoke with the builder and when we get it all framed up, we will be sitting down with the cabinet people to lay out and plan the entire thing.

Now, BEFORE framing, we will sit down and figure out the placement of ..

oh heck.. I know what I need to do.. I need to use and abuse those dadgum home depot people or lowes people.. lol.. if I take in the drawings I have, I can have them lay it all out in their program and give me a 3d version.. lol

Sorry.. having fun with all of this and thinking out loud :P

R

Don't 'use and abuse' anyone :)

Show them your plan and ask them for some drawings. Also look at appliances and lighting, hardware, etc. to see if there are any options that might be something you can suggest to your builder.

Is the cabinet person going to be doing bathrooms, laundry, also? If not, maybe get some quotes on those cabinets while you're at the big box store, too?

I spoke with Lowes. Since we are buying all the appliances from them, they have no problem drawing up the kitchen with their software as if we were getting the cabinets from them.. so.. I will be able to "design" the layout tonight.. maybe a couple of layouts.

I'll update the post tonight ot tomorrow with what we come up with.

Russ

Ok, I spoke with Lowes and.. these were just thrown together as an example, to get space and such... not "the cabinets" and they did not add the right sink or the right counter tops.. in fact, do not think they added counters.. lol

I THINK they got the numbers wrong on the dimensions.. if s, we will shorten the island to make up the difference. I told them it was 17'6" x 14'6" but the picture looks larger.

But.. gives you an idea.

Remember, we will be doing all the cabinets custom.. lots of drawers.. they just threw in a cabinet on each corner of the island to get spacing etc.. we will have one that is custom made.

So, we ended up with a 5x7ft island. The fridge has a direct line to the range. They were not able to add the exact appliances of the range hood since it is 54" and they do not carry that.

I will be talking to the builder about a prep sink in the island, but they did not go to that extent.

There is like 60" between the sink and the island and 48" on the sides of the island. That gives us 60" on the "triangle" area.

come to think... they screwed up and made the whole thing too large by 4ft width and 3ft length, which may skew all the measurements.. oh well.. was fun doing it, even if it was a waste of time :P

It amazes me the lack of any tool I can find online that lets you add anything larger than a 30" stove or a standard width frig.

Still looking, will work on it tonight... heh

R

Until you get your software working.....

A few ideas of how this might look, with sink under window and darker wood cabinets.

Range with windows on both sides, across from island...

Island with prep sink and windows on each side of cooktop...

Baking area possibility....picture ovens in doorway

ok, finally decided to just try to draw it as close to "scale" as I could. Each box constituted 6 inches.

Not perfect.. but it LOOKS like if I take the advice and center the range/hood, then I am under 12" and maybe under 6" from crossing the 'line' of the triangle from the fridge to the range.

That is acceptable, to me.

I made the island 4.5' x 7' and gave 48" distance between all counters.

I MAY.. gotta see if I want to give up 6 more inches on the island.. but I MAY make it 4' wife, we will see.

This does not include a prep sink on the island, still waiting on the cost for that.

Russ