I knew immediately upon starting to read your post that your son was involved with another woman. No surprise there.

I've walked through this with several people, and I promise you that Marriage Builders is the single best resource to help your DIL bust up the affair, which is the SOLE reason your son is saying all the very predictable, unoriginal, scripted things like he wants a divorce, is no longer in love, can't stand his wife, needs more attention, yadda, yadda. All the things he's saying are what all people say when they're falling for someone else. It's all cliche and quite boring. Yawn. In the meantime your DIL is 100% devastated and her entire world is falling apart.

Send her the two links below. She will receive immediate factual information, understanding of how/why this happens, support and guidance. She will also be asking for your assistance, so be ready.

---

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Support forum: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=35&page=1

Oakley, I don't have anything to add to the excellent advice given here, except to say that you have really stepped up to the plate for your DIL and that support of her will bless you for years to come with continued access to your beloved grandchildren. It's difficult when you feel your own child is in the wrong; navigating a way to help without condoning certain behaviors is no easy task but you are proving yourself more than capable of it. Good luck and God bless you all, regardless of the outcome.

She should post on that forum ASAP. I'll be happy to put her in direct contact with counselors or mentors who effectively deal with this issue every day. Unfortunately, many traditional therapists don't have a successful track record regarding infidelity. PM me for my email, and she is welcome to contact me.

I know several marriages that have been saved through Marriage Builders!

By the way, MB has books, but you don't need to purchase them to understand and implement the concepts. Most of their resources are free of charge.

Oakley - You've already received excellent advice here and I don't have any more to add. Just know that we all care for you - even though we only know you through this site - we all wish the best for you and your family. You're going through a really difficult transition and I hope you can take some time to care for yourself - both emotionally and physically. I'll second all of those who have suggested counseling - for you and your family.

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if I'm repetitious. I'm so sorry your family is going through this. In your shoes I would implore my son to go to marriage counseling during this six month period while he's saving for attorney fees, etc.. He's not thinking clearly right now and a good counselor should be able to get him to the point where he can at least make an informed decision. If in the end he still decides to walk away he can do it knowing he gave it everything he's got. He owes that much to himself, his wife, and especially the children.

Whether they stay together or not, he should probably seek employment elsewhere. Seeing this other woman at work everyday is only going to cloud his judgement. She needs to be out of the picture until he's at least filed for divorce. And if your son and DIL do stay together no way should your DIL have to wonder what's going on at work everyday between the two of them.

The success rate of second marriages is even more dismal than first marriages, especially with blended families. I sincerely hope they can work things out. In the meantime, be there to listen if they want to talk and give advice when asked but step aside as much as possible. They need to figure things out on their own. If they do divorce, you and your DH will be a source of comfort and stability for the grandkids so focusing on them instead right now might help you get through this a little easier.

Has he talked with other divorced dads to see what their life is like? Many that I know are stunned by the cost of child support and how it has affected their lifestyle. The grass always seems greener.

Counseling is good, but your DIL also needs to talk to a lawyer (not your DH) just in case. I know that is probably not what you want to hear, but think about it. What advice do women here ALWAYS get from everyone when they find themselves in the same spot?

I do hope it works out for them in a way that they are both content, whether together (will keep my fingers crossed that they can work through this) or apart.

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. You've already rec'd tons of great advice from others. I just wanted to add a couple of things.

My BFF's first husband walked out on her for another woman, and the scars it has left on her children have been devastating. One refused to marry even after buying a house and having a child with a fellow. (She finally did get married to him.) Another is in her 30s and single and working like crazy but not even dating as she finds it so difficult to even begin trusting someone. The third got himself involved with a drug addict who even stole jewelry from her. I can't say for sure these things wouldn't have happened anyway, but it's reasonable to assume their past has had an impact. And her kids were in high school/college at the time. Perhaps he is underestimating the impact a break up will have on his kids and a greater awareness of it would be a good thing.

The other thing I wanted to mention was for you. You sound like you are letting yourself get overwhelmed by this event. That's not good. Try to see how you are handling this. Are you projecting into the future all the things that might happen and how it might affect you and your DH, esp with the close living situation? Are you awfulizing and catastrophizing about all the potential outcomes? If so, don't. Stop thinking, and take a breath. All your imagining will do is make you more worried and upset. Your fears are not reality. They are just your thoughts. You can only act in this moment, and there's really nothing for you to do in this moment but breathe. So breathe. As long as you are breathing, it's not all bad. You can't affect the future until it gets here, you can't change the past as it's done. All you can do is be in this very moment. You need to center yourself better so you can see the situation more clearly. If you're an emotional wreck, you're not going to be able to help yourself or anyone else.

Do not be afraid to get counseling for yourself. It is far better to ask for and receive help, then to let yourself be overwhelmed by this event.

Sending comfort and courage your way.

I am so sorry you and your family are going through such a painful situation, Oakley. I agree wholeheartedly with everything Rocogurl said. I watched a scenario involving the breakup of my oldest brother and his wife years ago. My parents did their best to remain neutral (she cheated on him), and to keep their mouths shut and preserve their relationship with both my brother and my ex sister in law. By doing this, they were able to continue to have a relationship with my niece, who is now in her thirties. My parents are in their eighties, and still have a very close relationship with both her and with her mother. I know it must be very hard to do, but please try to stay out of their business.

I also agree that you need to find someone to talk with about this, because it is already affecting your health and will continue to do so if you don't find an outlet for your sadness, anger and other emotions. I am glad that your son has agreed to seek counseling, and hope you will do so also. Wishing you peace and comfort.

That sounds so difficult for all involved parties. Your poor DIL- it would be so hard for her to trust him again in the future. I hope that they can get counseling and move past it and that your son is able to realize it is not worth tearing his family apart because he is temporarily unhappy. Since he built a house with her so recently, he must have been at least reasonably happy (and not planning to leave) not too long ago... he shouldn't give up on a marriage because of a bad period!

Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything you can do, nor do I think there's probably too much her parents can do. I would focus on providing the kids with fun things to do, I would think they'd notice tension in the house even if their parents are trying to get along in front of them... kids are so observant about stuff. Of course, these days it is normal for kids to have divorced parents (sad!), so they won't be the only ones if the divorce does go through!

I'm touched by the people who wrote in this thread about situations in which grandparents, or other relatives, went to enormous effort to remain a rock of stability for children in divorce or marital strife situations.

Oakley, maybe if you keep your focus on being that rock for your grandchildren it will help you feel positive and connected--and it surely will be a lifeline for them! One benefit of being a long time, happily married person in my experience is that over the years you become that member of the family that others can count on when things are tough. I know from many of your posts how much you adore your grandchildren. They surely need your love and your comfort and the knowledge that even if their lives at home are turned upside down there is a safe and secure place and person waiting for them always at grandma's house.

Again, thank you all so much for your compassion and empathy. Since this is such a universal subject, I knew I could tell you all.

The good news is there really is no other woman, they were just friends, and after talking to my son and DIL in email yesterday, I'm convinced he's not in love or anything. Not even my DIL is worried about that.

I wish I had someone to talk to in person, but I do talk to a childhood friend via email. This is a small town, I don't trust that someone would spill the beans right now. Sometimes, I think it's better to take advice from virtual friends which is what I'm doing.

I am going to back off, at least with my son. I'm a sounding board for my DIL.

Our biggest concern is my son. He told me he needs his mom right now, but when I give him advice, and I walk on eggshells, plus being very gentle and not critical to him, sometimes he agrees, then he changes on a dime and gets mad.

For example, yesterday morning when we were talking in email, he was open to everything. That's when he decided to go to counseling. When he and his brother were talking last night, he told him that he will no longer reply to my emails or listen to his dad and I because we are making things worse. The thing is, my husband is a quiet man and I don't think he's given any advice in over a week, which was to tell my son to drop the relationship at work.

If any of you do look up men's midlife crisis, my son has all the nasty symptoms of the behavior change. I'm talking about anger, blaming others, being like a pod person. That's him in a nutshell.

My DIL told me something weird, but now I laugh at it. DS lost weight the past six months and runs over a mile every morning before work. He did need to lose a few pounds, but still looked good, IMO. She said he looks in the mirror all the time. One of the signs of MLC is looking in the mirror. lol

And during this stage of a MLC, there is no talking to the person, and that's how we feel. I don't trust a word out of his mouth which is a shame because he used to be my rock.

I have no choice but to back off so he will get counseling. Right now, that is the most important thing because something is terribly wrong with him, and if he doesn't fix what is wrong, no woman on earth will ever make him happy.

His manners are like George Clooney's. DS treated his wife like a princess for the most part. So imagine if George Clooney suddenly asked Amal for a divorce and became a mean SOB to her. It's a head scratcher, for sure.

I can't remember if I mentioned my son's need for attention. I'm too lazy to go back and read if I did. One of his gripes is his wife doesn't give the attention he needs. He also told his father and I that we don't give him attention either. Meaning we never ask how HE's feeling. He brought up examples from the past! Hogwash. The thing is, his need for attention is so unnatural. Only a counselor can help him with this. He has such high expectations of other people, it's not healthy.

He told me early last week he's been feeling this way about his marriage for the past three years. Then days later he said he's felt this way for the past six months. My DIL said the past six months have been great!

What's that old movie where aliens take over a person's body? They did that to my son. :)

Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Oakley - has he had blood work or a physical lately? I'm wondering if there could also be a physical component to this. I'm certainly not an expert on any of this but it seems odd that his personality could change so abruptly and his symptoms of a MLC seem extreme.

I like Annie's suggestion when the situation gets to you: "Stop thinking and take a breath. ........ You can only act in this moment, and there's really nothing for you to do in this moment but breathe. So breathe. As long as you are breathing, it's not all bad. You can't affect the future until it gets here, you can't change the past as it's done."

If anyone is changing behavior rapidly, then a physical is a good idea. I thought I was suffering anxiety and losing it. Fortunately my mother insisted I see a medical doctor and it turned out I had thyroid disease. I was amazed at how much of my life and behavior it changed...including weight loss, inability to sleep or sit still, extreme irritability, etc.

Rocco.... you're a good egg :-)

What's so horribly wrong with him not being happy? This: his behavior has strong negative impact on 3 innocent people: his wife and two small children. Rococogirl, I'm going to respectively disagree with you. Oakley knows the people involved far better than we do, and if it strikes her as wrong and odd that her son is suddenly agitated and wants to leave a fine wife and two small kids for imagined greener pastures, I think we should trust her judgment on that. Secondly, it's better to be truthful even if it hurts than to coddle and encourage muzzy-headed notions just to be "supportive." If Oakley's son is making a bone-headed decision, then he should have to confront -- not be sheltered from -- the consequences. Likely consequences are disapproval from his parents and from friends and coworkers. If he's looking for support for hurting people close to him and for leaving a good home life for some imagined Nirvana, he's being foolish and should be told. It's harsh, but honest and transparent.

My husband has a niece out of state who called and said, "R doesn't want to be married anymore, he says he still loves me but is not in love with me." They had a three year old daughter at the time.

They did go to therapy and are still married today with a second child.

We were supportive, but here is how I saw the marriage. She was the successful one with a college education and career. She also inherited a large sum of money from her parents when they passed away.

She was bossy! It was clear that she ran the show. In therapy she learned to share having the authority. As much as we want to even the score, there are feminine and masculine traits that just can't be ignored. Sometimes though, it is hard to see from the outside what is wrong in a marriage. Your son might be feeling ignored and second place since the arrival of the kids. I don't know the age of your son, but maybe having children at the point was too soon for him.

Your son is feeling what he is feeling. Only he can decide if he wants to work at trying to save this marriage.

I do agree that at the very least if he goes to therapy, in the future the children will have the understanding that he tried and didn't just walk away.

I've deleted my comment. I certainly don't want to be unhelpful in this situation. There's enough pain.

Evidently, I see different things than others do. Life is not easy. People are very complicated. If someone is unhappy and hurting their family it's likely not planned. It's just happens.

I do know that when one expects a grown person in pain to deny their own feelings and accept a parent's judgment of what's happening and what's good for them and their life then it will likely backfire. I also have learned that truth is relative -- everyone has their own truth.

My point is that Oakley has a view of a situation that is not the same as her son's. If she only hears that she is right and he is wrong it doesn't help her. When a grown son or daughter in crisis says they don't want your emails any more it is cutting off communication. The message is "not helpful." I can see why he did that from the comments she has made here. If she seeks to understand why I'm saying that, I invite her to ask.

I don't know Oakley or her family. I only know what she has written about the situation.

Oakley, I'm praying for you and your family. I know this is such a difficult time, but I hope you will have a peace and comfort wash over you that will keep you strong.

I would caution you against being a sounding board for your DIL. Your son will undoubtedly view this as two women "ganging up on him", and trust me - nothing good will come from that. It's completely understandable that your DIL needs someone to share her feelings with, but that person should not be you. A counselor is the very best person for her to be talking to right now.

ellendi6161 - your niece and I are very, very similar. In fact, I don't mind sharing that my DH and I are in counseling right now to learn how to communicate properly. I grieve for the years that I "wore the pants" and insisted on making all of the decisions, simply because I bring home the bacon and have the dominant personality. We are now learning what it truly means to walk in love with one another. Sharing the authority does not come easy for me, but how much happier I am when I know that DH feels considered and valued.

Marriage is a fragile thing, and it's all too easy to take a relationship for granted. This is not my first marriage, and I'll soon be 53 years old. You'd think I would have gotten it right by now, but there really is no shame in admitting that I'm still learning and growing day by day. I'm so happy that your niece and her husband overcame their difficulties. I believe it's absolutely vital to share these success stories, when so much of what we hear from the rest of the world actually encourages us to remain selfish and unforgiving.

I could have written Roccogurl's post, and yes the hardest thing is to stand back, now that everything has been said to him, all kinds of warnings that I'm sure he had thought about before. Keeping communication open and unconditional should be a goal at this point. MLC or not, he has changed , and whether you accept it or not, it's a fact.

…….and I might add that the worst, biggest, most awful, horrible "fights" that I have had with my DH has been about how to raise our daughters. You would think that things would be more clear cut, but there are so many shades of gray.

I don't know the purpose of trying to 'label' him as having a mlc-- a mlc is just the realization that 'omg- my life is probably at least half over and what am I doing with it!!?? am I really happy/content/satisfied??' he clearly isn't.

doesn't sound like his wife is too in tuned with him if she thinks everything has been great between them... counseling is probably a good idea all around... but, an awful lot of very nice people who used to love each other do get divorced...

I wonder if living on his parent's property given to him next door is much, much too close for him....? living that close to one's parents would probably be a little suffocating for a lot of people and maybe helped add to his stress...

I'll be eternally grateful that my mother kept her comments/opinions to a minimum when dh & I were going through a rough patch 20 years into our marriage. She gently reminded me of the wonderful man I married and made me reevaluate what was really important in life. We celebrate 38 years together this fall.

The changes in your son may be permanent or they may be nothing more than a bump in the road. Regardless, there's nothing you can do about it except pray for the best outcome for all concerned.

Ellendi, I agree. The only fights I ever have with my DH are about child-rearing. This is why I laugh when people have children to "bring them closer together". BAER

Rococogurl, I did not see your earlier post, but as to this, I agree.

I do know that when one expects a grown person in pain to deny their own feelings and accept a parent's judgment of what's happening and what's good for them and their life then it will likely backfire. I also have learned that truth is relative -- everyone has their own truth.

Again, I don't think we should mollycoddle and pretend all behavior and choices are okay, or deny that the choices hurt or disappoint us. But once that is voiced, i think the unfortunate truth is you then have to let it play out and learn to accept it.

PS As I think I wrote before, I would stop focussing on whether he is having an "MLC" or not. Renewed emphasis on grooming is also consistent with having an affair, FWIW. I think by researching MLC (which I am not sure, I really don't know, is a popular culture construct or something truly useful in therapy), you are trying to find a thing to blame apart from your DS, just like the body-snatcher humor. It isn't a thing, it is him and his own emotions. Even if we don't like the emotions and wish them away, its' probably not good to trivialize them. I know I would not like it.

BTW, I wanted to say I think the title of your post was wise and hope you have found it to be so.

True story----my very worst argument with DH was over a Scrabble game ten or twelve years ago. It was a knock down / drag out and I did not speak to him for a week. It was a matter of principle and in the end we agreed never to play scrabble together again. Our children do not mention the S word. I am pretty sure if we had told them about the row that my mother and in laws would have thought it the silliest thing they ever heard. My dad, who had died by then, would have understood my position but counseled compromise. Excellent advice, which I wouldn't have followed!

Reading this thread I realize how very lucky we have been. I think "easy" marriages, to the extent that any of them can be called easy, are about 99% luck and that getting along well has less to do with love and more with personalities.

Oakley is smart enough to say things here she wouldn't say to the people involved. She has already taken a step back and is trying to work out how to support all the important people in her life, a circle which ---to her credit---includes her DIL. Steady on, Oak <3

KSWL, I can so identify! In my family growing up, we used to say, we play Scrabble "for blood". And now whenever we play games at home with our family, which is pretty often, it gets intense.

DH and I met by sheer happenstance and on the surface didn't have much in common. We have been together almost 20 years, married for 16. Maybe it is too soon, but we have never had a "rough patch" and I honestly don't understand the phrase "marriage is work". We just see eye to eye on almost everything and can enjoy each others company doing the most mundane things. I agree that is just luck.

I think marriage is about knowing when to compromise, when to get your way, & when to let your spouse have his way. That's work. It's been a successful MO for us for 34 years.

I liked CindyMac's post very much -- the comment about gentle reminders from her mother making her reevaluate her thinking. That's where I think Oakley and her husband can do a service for their son by voicing their perspective on the issue instead of saying nothing. I'm not talking about haranguing him, but gentle probing.

Oakley, you have received such wonderful advice here that there is nothing I could add other than I do pray for wisdom, discernment, strength and peace for all involved. Hugs to you.

I have no problem understanding that marriage is work because mine certainly is! It is likely a function of the personalities involved, the fact that I was 18 and he 23 when we married, and the trials that have come our way. We have been at it 19 years and the work aspect still has not let up (nor have the trials!). I can say I have learned that most of the time, it is just better for me to play Scrabble on my Kindle and I refuse to learn how to play chess, it is just better that way for everyone involved.

When my two youngest DD's married, one at age 27 the other at 31, and became pregnant within the first 6 months, having their babies before the 2year mark, neither foresaw the problem which lay ahead. Both husbands were always given plenty of attention~going away for a weekend at a moments nottice, dinner dates, Sunday afternoon at a winery, moviie on a week night, etc. Things changed dramatically after the first baby was born, the youngest DD's husdand verbalizing the lack of attention he was getting, the other husband saying he had "lost his best friend'". Before the babies were born, both husbands were the center of attention of both daughters, w/o any distractions, and both adored their husbands. However, when the first baby was born, things changed, drastically. No longer was the time available for lengthy dinnertime conversations over a second glass of wine, and dinner/movie/weekend dates needed to be planned ahead as well as a finding/hiring a nanny/sitter who was felt to be trustworthy as well as capable. Both DD's came to me crying because their husbands felt neglected, forgotten, and no longer loved. The babies had taken precident! To make a long story short, things were worked out, and adjustments were made, and both DD's marriages are at the 10 year mark.

The point is, husbands require even more attention after babies are born, and if they don't get it, it's a recipe for disaster.

Oak, whether this was the precipitator only your son, and possibly DIL, know for sure, and it's an issue that DOES need to be discussed, but not all husbands will bring up the conversation, This is where the wife will need the insight to see/feel that something is not right with her man, and get him to open up. If he won't open up, SHE needs to realize to what extent things have changed since the baby/babie were born.

To be honest, I don't know if I believe in the theory of a mid l crisis, if both spouses have very open communication, and really listen. Each also has the need for their own personal time as well as planning special time to be together. Marriages of longer duration and a spouse in their 50's or older is usually seen as the norm in a mlc. If a 3rd party becomes involved, I see that as a 'cry' for either attention, possibly only conversation, affection, or both. And Oak, I am so sorry this is happening to your family. My oldest son is married for the 3rd time. I think I would have preferred a mlc rather than one wife who cheated after only 3 months, and another who was viciously jealous as well as mean to his then 4 year old daughter. God bless all concerned and hopefully come to a decision that keep the family ((((together)))).

First, let me say how very sorry I am that you are going through this. Stress is so very hard on the body. I hope you can find some way to relieve it. Some outlet.

I am posing something no one else has. I might be completely off, but wanted to offer a thought. I knew a woman who had just had a baby. Her husband had an ongoing affair with a co-worker. He wanted to leave her. Turns out his depression medication threw him into quite a manic phase. I have no idea your son's mental history. I could be way off. There are many forms of this. A mixed state could maybe fit what your son might be going through. I'm glad he's going to counseling.

Please, don't be offended as I have no clue if this is even a possibility, but I had to put it out there. I also have experienced some mild bipolar episodes in my life and I made snap decisions that I later regretted.

Big ((((hug)))) to you and your family!

Oakley, I am very sorry this is happening to you and your family. I walked in your shoes just three short years ago, so I understand your heartache. In my case it was my DIL who wanted out and for exactly the reasons your son has stated. My DIL was having an affair though. To say it turned our world upside down in the blink of an eye is an understatement. It consumed me 24/7 and took a toll both physically and mentally. I have been through a lot of difficult times in my life, but nothing prepares you for this kind of stress. My DIL's mom and I just wanted to fix it, as no one knew them better than we did, but we quickly learned we needed to step back, but let them know we were there for support. Stepping back was incredibly hard, because there is nothing worse than not knowing.

The best piece of advice I was given was to see a therapist. I don't know where I would be today without her guidance. She showed me how to better communicate with my son and DIL, so as not to judge or lecture. Just changing the order of words in a sentence can change another persons thought process and help them to better understand their own situation.

It may very well be a mid life crisis with your son, but also could be something else and hopefully he will figure it out soon.

I know you are reluctant to go to therapy in your town, but if it takes driving extra miles, you are worth it! Many therapists will also do phone sessions, but meeting in person at first is important. Hugs to you!

Pattycakes, with the greatest caution I would categorically disagree with this statement: "The point is, husbands require even more attention after babies are born, and if they don't get it, it's a recipe for disaster."

I think that characterizes all men as spoiled brats. I don't personally know any husband who reacted that way to fatherhood.

Oakley, I am so sorry for your family going through this. Nothing more to add, as you have received some great advice already. I just hope you will take care of yourself and also spend some good times with your grandkids. They will need someone like you to be a source of refuge, even though they don't realize it.

Counseling for yourself, and for your DS and DDIL would be highly recommended, both for now and their future with or without each other.

Rococogurl, I meant to say earlier, he has no guilt at what he's doing to his wife or the rest of the family, except for his kids. At one point after a long talk with him in email yesterday, he did tell me he was sorry for how it's effecting me and his dad. But it's a long story as to how it came out of his mouth. lol. Basically I gave him a gentle talk about how everything is about him and no one else. He was extremely open to it. I say things like that when I read his mood.

The weight loss is no big deal. He's like me, we can gain 30 pounds in seconds then have to take it off. Ever since high school he goes on a diet and exercise regimen and he's really good at sticking to it. I wish I was like that! So this isn't unusual at all.

He had a checkup just this past Monday. He's fine. BP was a tad bit high, but it's been normal the rest of the week.

About the MLC. I never put any stock in it either until the other day I was just grasping for a reason for this change in him which made me look it up. Like I said, I was floored. This type of MLC has the same type of behavior pattern in all the men who go through it. There are different variations of a MLC, but this is the most severe form. The most informative info came from a men's health website. I read other sites too, and they all had the same description and same testimonials from wives.

If you all knew my son, you'd think something from beyond is inhabiting his body. Take you own husband's for example, those of you who are compatible with your husbands. Imagine if one day he says he doesn't love you and wants a divorce. He starts blaming you for the tiniest of things that are out of your control. He's constantly irritated. Says extremely rude things to you. THAT is how it happened.

They always did things together. Just a few weeks ago they took a date night in the City and stayed in a nice hotel. They do this about twice a year. My DIL said they had a great time, I even saw the happy pictures of my son laughing and smiling on FB. When they were leaving my son told her, "This will be our hotel from now on." Who does that when they're miserable?

They've had date nights, and often, since the first baby was born. They were always compatible.

Living close to us isn't a problem. We give them space. DS loves helping out in the garden and greenhouse with my dh. They both invite us up for a Saturday morning big breakfast. They invite us to a bbq about once a week. The relationship with both inlaws are fantastic. Trust me, if my son wanted us to stay away, he'd say so. lol On a normal week I'd pop in maybe once. Dh would do it more often because he and DS would be mowing together or something. We never spend more than 30 min. inside unless we're eating. We were so blessed, all three families get a long great. That's rare!

As I said before, the attention my son requires is abnormal. And I'm one who requires attention and pats on the back all the time.

Another thing is he is an extreme perfectionist. He's a civil engineer where everything has to be perfect or it will fail. Do any of you live with an engineer? If so , you'll know what I'm talking about. My dad was one, so I know what it's like. When he graduated from college, I was looking online for a gift for engineers. I stumbled upon a message board for spouses of engineers. It was a support board!

I haven't spoken to him today. I'm backing off big time. In fact, I only gave my advice when he brought it up.

The only thread of hope is he is now talking separation.

kswl2, my DH was one of those husbands, he was jealous of the attention I gave our first child. We married very young, and I think immaturity played a part. DH left for a week, when DS was about 6 months old. In a way it was a good thing, in the week he was by himself, he had time to reflect. When he returned home he explained to me what he was feeling and how ashamed he was. We will be married 43 years this summer, all turned out well. I dont know if you ever watched All in the Family, a TV comedy, it was probably before your time, but there was actually an episode on that show where Gloria and Michael had problems because he was jealous of the time Gloria spent with the baby. So maybe you dont personally know any men who act that way, but there are.

"If you all knew my son, you'd think something from beyond is inhabiting his body". That is exactly what we (including DIL's family) said about her. Everything about her was different and that is what made it all so much more difficult because we were all looking at stranger now. She went from being compassionate, selfless, outgoing to uncaring and cold, literally overnight. The phrase she would often quote was "No regrets, just lessons learned". Since all this transpired 3 years ago, she has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. My son ended up divorcing (she had multiple affairs) and it has been a long road of healing for him.

I am glad you are stepping back a bit, you need to take breather. As I said in my previous post, it consumed me 24/7 trying to make sense of it all. You have a lot to digest. Hugs!

Roseabby, I have seen that happen. We had friends and the husband gave the wife divorce papers days before their 25th wedding anniversary. I don't believe he was "jealous" of their son, but he later told us that for so many years their lives had been focused on their son (an only child), and when he left home, things were very different. He felt like they no longer had anything to talk about. They had forgotten how to talk to each other. And the wife was having a hard time with her baby leaving home. And yes, another woman was involved. She gave him attention, she listened to him. They went places together, did things together. We all need attention from our spouse.
Oakley, it's very sad because it is obvious your son is not happy. I hope that he will indeed go to counseling and find answers.

ellen and mtn, I agree with you about the fights over child-rearing. When our DD was a teen, our house felt like a war zone, everyone mad at everyone else. When she graduated from high school it was easily the happiest day of my life.

Tina, the example you gave about your friend and the other woman is typical. It's such a cliche that "she understands me, you don't" that jokes are made about it. The other woman isn't married to the man, but she sure wants him and will make him feel like a king until she gets him. They're called "Man Poachers." Unfortunately, too many men only learn that lesson when they marry that woman.

You all gave me excellent advice. DH and I sat outside this afternoon and we both agreed to back off a 100%. If DS wants to come to us sincerely asking for advice, then we'll give it.

Thank you for being here for me. If I don't check in, it's because I'm trying really hard not to think about it. This is when a good glass of wine would come in handy and I don't have any! lol

Actually, the other woman and the man married. They waited for some time after his divorce. That was several years ago. We kind of lost touch with our friends, although I see the (ex) wife from time to time, but she has moved. In the past year we've had a few social activities where we have talked with the husband and the new wife. The most recent was a family wedding and I was able to observe how the new wife interacted with family and friends. She did alot in helping with the wedding (reception was held at family farm), and it appears she gets along well with the family. I would not call her a man poacher, more that she was at the right place at the right time. Sad to say but it seems the couple had grown apart. I personally feel that much of their time and energy was devoted to their careers and child and they had not made time for each other. I'm just happy that at this point all involved seem happy with their lives again. The ex-wife has not remarried but is involved with a very nice man.

I am so sorry, Oakley. You've gotten some great advice here, and I can't anything to it. My heart goes out to you, to your husband and to your DS, DIL and her family. I truly hope things work out well for all involved.

Oak, maybe I watch too much Grey's Anatomy, but has your son had a physical lately?

@Oakley - You and your husband made a very wise decision by backing off. Very wise.

Over the years I have seen many, many situations both with friends and family. People often have very complicated lives that no one suspects, least of all a parent. People keep secrets and they can change dramatically -- especially at midlife. I see hints of these things all the time in the most unlikely places. I've also seen it in older men -- 50s, 60s.

It usually is a long time brewing before the person who has the feelings can bring it forward as it can be hard & confusing to even admit it to themselves. It may take a very long time before there is a full picture.

When someone is in severe pain they come first. It can be seen as selfish or deeply in need and it's difficult when people who are closest are being hurt. But that's what happens because to admit remorse is sometimes only possible in hindsight.

What is most useful though, is not to pay attention to anything that is said. Watch the actions. Believe only the actions. Only the actions count in times like these -- especially if they contradict what's being said. When the words and actions match, all is well. If not, nothing is settled no matter what anyone says. I hope you can accept this as it will help keep you off the emotional roller coaster.

Mitchdesj also has said something very important which I feel bears repeating: "MLC or not, he has changed , and whether you accept it or not, it's a fact."

I firmly believe in a maxim I made up myself ;), which is that the only people who know the truth about a relationship are the people in it. So whether or not it appears to be a mid life crisis (and truly no offense Oakley but I don't believe that 'MLC' is quite as much a specific mental illness as you seem to believe) or whether it is because the marital dynamics are unbalanced by the child rearing stage or whether it is because of any number of other factors...only the husband and wife are in the relationship and only they know what is going on between them.

I've also heard it said that affairs are a symptom and not the cause of marriages breaking up and I suspect there is truth in that. People in happy fulfilling relationships don't have a need for whatever validation is to be gained in a secret extra marital connection. And again, only the partners really know what's lacking or not between them. Not parents, not friends, and not us folks on a message board.

It's good that you and your husband are making the difficult but healthy decision to step back. It is up to your son and DIL to decide their future and truly, nobody else can do that for or with them.

Sounds like a tragic situation for everyone. He won't GET it until he is divorced I suppose. The old adage, if he would just spend as much energy on his wife as he does on his pity party and other women he could "fix" this. This is why 'no fault' divorce is a nightmare. I am not hearing a church affiliation. There is no one he would agree to get counseling from? He sounds like a guy needing some one on one attention from her. MLC or not it takes two and these two need to focus on each other IMHO for this to save itself. So tough to do when kids are small and they were building a house. Marriage isn't forever, anymore but fatherhood is. I wonder in two years when he is balancing being a dad and his new life if he will see what a mess he made? Divorce does not work for kids or the parents or anyone else. Custody/sharing is a non-stop BURDEN on everyone. I wonder if there is a way for him to get a glimpse into the life he is sentencing his family to? My prayers are with you. It is so sad our society encourages this sort of thing.

Oakley, this is one of those threads that makes me wish we all lived near to each other so we could do more for you than type words. Hope our love, concern, & support is a source of strength for you.

Well, I'll be the odd one out and revoice my opinion about not stepping back and staying out of the picture, at least not completely. When you're not thinking clearly or seeing the big picture, having someone step in to lay it all out for you can be an eye opener. Oakley's son may not take the advice, but it's worth a try. He needs to know all the consequences his actions will have, not just live in a fantasy where everything looks easy.

Our extended family went through this when a BIL wanted to leave his excellent wife of 35 years for greener pastures. He was shocked when the family members rallied around his wife in support and voiced our disapproval of him leaving. It made him realize how much she was loved by the family and was an eye opener for him. It took several years of counseling and work, but they are still together and will make it. He has a new love and appreciation for her. She has resentments that she's working through (as will Oakley's DIL), but in my observation, I'm seeing much closeness and even some playfulness in their marriage now. I really do believe he would have taken off had it not been for the pressure of the extended family stepping in.

Oakley - just thinking about you. How are you holding up?

Hope you are doing well. When you do talk to your son again, make sure you tell him you love him and are concerned about him. Sometimes we forget to state the obvious and sometimes folks really need to hear it. That may be especially true of someone who seems like he is critical and needing a lot of attention.

I wouldn't press the issue, you buy might inquire about things outside the family -- work, friends, the world in general. Maybe have a philosophical discussion (if that works with you and your DS) about life -- hopes, dreams, worries, and try to make it about him and the world, not him and family. Maybe there's a conection?

If he is an engineer and perfectionist, could there be things at work that are beyound his control that are causing stress that doesn't have another outlet -- like kids who stress at school and explode on their parents about any little thing when they get home, just a grown up version. Are there any fears about layoffs? Is he not happy with the work he's doing? Anything he might be afraid of? Is he the sole bread winner? Is that causing him a lot of stress - especially if he's worried about his job or feeling unsatisfied in his career. Maybe focussing on him a bit will let him open up and express some things that might help resolve some tension. May or may not solve the relationship, but the underlying issue here is that you are concerned about your son. You don't feel like he is acting like himself and that is causing other issues. Again, let him know you love him and you are concerned about him.

Sounds like he has seen a doctor, but that doesn't rule out any medical issues. Doctors only know what they see and what they are told in a short window of time. You know what was reviewed loooked fine. That's a snapshot. If the doctor isn't told more, they don't know to look deeper. I've never known a doctor to look for any mental issues if they weren't pressing questions. Questions most folks would rather avoid. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

Take care of yourself, and I wish you all the best.