Below are some photos of several younger blooms on my 6- or 7-year old WRCT (compare to photos of JH on HMF). The petal count on each of the blooms in these photos are 69, 69, and 58, respectively, so not quite 100. It'll be a while before I can compare mature JH blooms (and other features), unfortunately, but I am certainly looking forward to it!

The size of the mature plant will surely be different, I imagine. If not, then three or four years ago I planted 5 Westside Rose Cream Teas in a row in entirely the wrong place. So far they are spreading but no higher than my knees. I am expecting them to get no higher than my waist.

Either that, or I am about to give Jesse Hildreth entirely too much real estate in the front garden. I am expecting a tall, upright shrub, and I am planning to remove a tall, upright, modern shrub to make room for it.

Rosefolly, here's a few-minutes-old photo of my Westside Road Cream Tea, with a 6' green pole I just stuck in there for scale. I, too, was expecting WRCT to "get no higher than my waist", since it is planted right next to the patio and was supposed to be sort of an "edging" plant. Oh well. It's a glorious bloomer. There's little JH in his pot there in the front, who, I do expect, will be tall some day.

Oh, dear. I planted five along the edge of a walkway as an edging plant. I thought I was being so very clever. Not sure what to do now. I can see now why you are suspiciously comparing the two found roses

If they are the same, well, I certainly don't need six of the same rose! Does anyone have a Jesse Hildreth that is several years old? It would be helpful to know that it looks like.

I am becoming more intrigued. JH and WRCT have similar distributions of little red glands on the lower halves of their receptacles (hard to see in the photo, visible with 10x hand lens) and, as you can see from the second photo, despite its name, WRCT is, in its heart of hearts, a yellow rose. (Could be cousins, at least, eh, Jeri?) This will certainly be on my list of interesting things in the yard for the future. When JH gets big enough, he will get a spot near WRCT. By the way, I counted the petals on my sole specimen of JH bloom and it had 60 total.

Well, Rosefolly, perhaps conditions where your edging is may help keep your WRCT smaller. Certainly most of the material on HMF puts forth the idea that this is a "compact", smaller rose (in pots, no less!), though it isn't in my backyard. I do have two known monster roses (Darlow's Enigma, Secret Garden Musk Climber) planted out in the brutal (worst soil ever), hot, dry conditions of my front yard where they are, so far, relatively moderate-sized, nice, sedately growing bushes that bloom well but show no inclination for world domination (yet).

I do know that this WRCT resents top pruning -- I tried pruning by a third to control its height just once, two or three years ago. Not only was it a futile effort, the result wasn't pretty -- took more than a year for the bush to look nice again. These days I do a little side pruning to keep it from getting too wide in diameter and that's it.

Semi-glandular receptacles: WRCT is on left, JH is on right:

Pool of petals from WRCT:

Very interesting! Thank you for the photos

I did have the feeling that JH had the most luscious full white blooms I'd ever seen. Having had WRCT, that rose didn't seem to have quite the elegant and full blooms that JH did in the picture. However, that JH was an old plant and I had to get rid of WRCT when it was still fairly young because two years in a row it did not have normal blooms any more. I don't know what caused it as I've never seen anything like it before. They became very small and grayish brown where before they looked like yours, also on an extremely fast-growing bush. Now that you have both, catspa, in a few years you should be able to make a definitive judgment. I'm surprised to see how very similar these two roses look in most respects.

There is at this time only ONE mature Jesse Hildreth -- and it's a shadow of its former self. (Though with enough powerhouse roots to push it right along. So, I think only time will tell.

I've had a strong feeling for a long time that there was a close relationship between Jesse Hildreth and Lamarque. And I can certainly buy WRCT as being in the same family. It NAGS at me that these "yellowish" roses I see as being "family" must all be related in one way or another to the mysterious 'Smith's Yellow.'

For example -- see:
'Smith's Yellow China' (Blush Noisette X Parks Yellow Tea-Scented China)
'Lamarque' (Blush Noisette X Parks Yellow Tea-Scented China)
'Le Pactole' (Lamarque X Smith's Yellow China)
'Devoniensis' (Parks Yellow Tea-Scented China X Smith's Yellow China)

Jeri, did you get a chance to visit Jesse? Lots of happy new growth being allowed to grow up front the roots.

This was a good breakdown of what identifying characteristics roses have. Thank you. This was pretty informative.

Yes. I'm really pleased. After they were cut so badly, the old roots didn't have enough strength left to support the old "tree" -- but as they are growing back, they are pushing up that wonderful new growth. I was really happy.

Thanks for reference to an interesting line of inquiry, Jeri. Doing an advanced search on HMF, the known, extant first-generation descendants of Park's Yellow Tea-scented China (once all the synonyms are pruned out ) are thus:

Jaune Desprez

Lamarque

Devoniensis

Safrano

Blairii #1 and #2 (both x Gallica?)

Le Pactole

and the apparently extinct ones are:

Aurora (pre-1829 tea)

Smith's Yellow China (which had the same breeding as Jaune Desprez and Lamarque, which was Blush Noisette x Parks Yellow Tea-scented China).

Park's Yellow Tea-scented China itself is also, apparently, "lost", with the one in commerce (a once-bloomer!) generally agreed to not be the "true" variety. However, I was excited to see that the Sacramento Cemetery has a plant of the "in commerce" variety, which I will definitely seek out next spring, to view in bloom in person.

It is exciting to think of these California foundlings, Jesse Hildreth and Westside Road Cream Tea (I'm assuming WRCT is named after the road in Sonoma County -- does anyone know for sure?), as belonging to this somewhat rare, exclusive lineage -- they certainly have that appearance. Le Pactole, after all, was long-lost and rediscovered in California's Sierra Nevada, among other places.

Ingrid, my WRCT has had single flushes that were less than magnificent and as you describe, especially in its earlier years, but not a continuous run of them -- generally during the dog-days of summer. Environmental conditions, I would bet, which unfortunately persisted where you are.

In our milder climate, Jesse Hildreth (tho still a relatively immature plant) blooms in fairly rapid successive flushes. And blooms generously, for a plant of its size. It's disease-free here, too -- which is a major plus for me. It also doesn't seem to mind if some of its water is sourced from dish-rinse water.

In recent correspondence with Florence Bowers, in South Carolina, she remarked upon the resemblance between Jesse Hildreth's photos, and Lamarque, which she has long-grown. So -- I agree with you -- they all DO have a similar appearance.

And it would really be interesting, wouldn't it, to DNA test Jesse Hildreth and WRCT against some of the known members of that presumed family of roses?

DNA tests? Absolutely. I've been thinking that would be a GREAT project, these past few days.

The pre-1829 tea, 'Aurora', is still lost, too, but its description doesn't fit JH. Perhaps JH and WRCT are Lamarque seedlings, or non-climbing sports? DNA could tell us a lot, whether yea or nay.

At least it could tell us whether or not they have common "family."

Wow- I don't expect to see buds and leaves looking so similar even when they're from the same plant. If they are not the same variety, I do agree that they must be closely related.

Love those blooms... sigh...

Virginia

"Jesse Hildreth"

I could see mine was blooming as I watered in the dark last night.....

I think 'luminous' is an appropriate adjective...

I did 'wish list' "Jesse" with Rose Petals, but I suppose it will take some time for their plant to grow large enough to take cuttings from. This is good, though, since I can't justify any more rose purchases in the near future...

Virginia

But it's good to know, if you want something badly, that it will come eventually.

Today I moved my young "Jesse Hildreth" to the beginning of the row of five "Westside Road Cream Tea" roses. If it is the same rose, it is now in the right place, and they will all need to be pruned for size together. It it is not the same rose, that will easily become clear in a few years, and it is still in a reasonable place. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

Beautiful roses and they look the same to me based on the pictures. I'd love to have "Jesse Hildreth" and might contact Rose Petals to get on the "wish list." You can keep "Westside Road Cream Tea," as that name is awful and too hideous a name for such a splendid rose.

Rosefolly, sounds like a good plan, and the better to compare. I absolutely agree that it will be interesting to see what they all look like in a few years.

But, Verdi Guy, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"! ;-) I've always assumed (but may be wrong) that "Westside Road Cream Tea" was named after the wonderful Westside Road that runs between Healdsburg and Forestville in Sonoma County, CA and that Philip Robinson found it somewhere along there. Can anyone confirm that? If my assumption is correct, it is, for me personally, the more evocative name, having been born and raised in the area. But, yeah, it is a pretty humdrum study name, compared to the eloquence of "Jesse Hildreth".

Perhaps study names should be fairly humdrum, as an incentive for rose sleuths to track down the original (and probably more romantic-sounding) names.

Yes, I'm on board with the idea that you should love a rose for its merits, regardless of its name (or lack of one); but each rose has a history, and if a rose is a survivor, it's nice if some credit can be given to its originator/namer.

Virginia

Virginia -- I LOVE study names. I love that they tell me something about the place they were found, or the people they were associated with.

We've learned that the Hildreths, in the late 1800's had the second-largest cattle ranch in Monterey County. That, added to the fact that Jesse died very young, appeals to me.

The Richardson family's rose -- whether you call it "Legacy Of The Richardson Family" or "George Washington Richardson" -- REALLY interests me. Not least because I have read that the freed slaves formerly owned by George and Martha Washington took the name "Richardson."

Not only do we have the "in commerce" Beales Parks Yellow (BPY) in the Sacramento cemetery, we have Lamarque, Jesse Hildreth and Westside Road Cream Tea, so you can compare them when you come to visit us. I've been surprised at how short and twiggy our JH has been, after about 4 years in the ground, and how small the flowers are. I asked Jeri to confirm that we had the right label on our JH, which she did this year, since it grows so differently than I expected based on the photos of the mature plant. Since Westside Road Cream Tea has quite large flowers, I did not connect the two as possibly the same or closely related - although I agree that the growth habit for both is similar (short and wide).. If they bloom at the same time in the future, I will compare further. One thing I wonder about is the fragrance. If WRCT and JH smell different, they aren't the same rose.

JH is in full sun in the cemetery - WRCT is in partial shade. Paula, it's good that you are putting yours side by side.

Anybody who wants to see BPY needs to come early in our spring flush. It has a luscious grapefruit scent. It blooms early, and only once, with an incredibly romantic display of full, fragrant flowers dripping from cascading canes. It and Lamarque are true climbers.

Truly humdrum found names (#42, anyone?) are not good. Far better to describe where it was found, such as the road or gravesite. Also not good is putting a class in the found name. Once we've had a chance to grow and observe it, a "mini" may actually be a giant Tea-Noisette (Fred Boutin originally collected "Le Pactole" as "Sonora Lemon-White Mini" and was stunned when it grew huge) and a "centifolia" may repeat bloom.

Anita

Anita, though I haven't the greatest sniffer when it comes to roses, the scents of WRCT and JH seemed very similar to me. Look forward to other noses weighing in.

As the first photo in this thread shows, too, the size of JH's bloom was close to those of WRCT (and that JH bloom shown was from a teeny runt of a plant of it in a pot -- its first bloom). JH's few blooms since have had one about as large as the first and the rest smaller in size.

I also have the "Sonora Lemon-White Mini" ('Le Pactole') and it is anything but that -- now pushing 6'+ all around and the flowers aren't that "mini" now either -- good point about including class in a found rose's name! I love, love, love that rose; one of my top favorites now, though I wasn't so impressed the first five years or so it was in the ground -- flowers relatively few and small then, though it seemed to grow well enough.

I have next spring's visit to see BPY already marked on my calendar. :-)