a2gemini, thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, clearly not every E chips and that's why it's still on the list, but it worries me. I'm glad yours is still going strong :)

Re DW, which Miele model do you have?

Ours is 5 years old - la perla. Definitely get the model that pops open as everything comes out dry except crevices where water can collect. There is a new model coming out - knock twice to open the door - I am not kidding but I can see a pointer dog going whack, whack and the door opening.

I put almost everything in it. China, crystal, pot and pans and 99% come out great.

It holds a ton of dishes as well

I tried K2O. It seems quite reliable. Noise won't cause the door open for sure. It detects the knocking vibration on the door. I pounded the countertop and other places, the door did not open.

That's pretty dense :)

I love my BS RNB range and my Miele DW. As others have said, these are workhorses that do a wonderful job. I use my kitchen appliances multiple times a day; I don't want surprises.

The Subzero that came with the house has generally been doing fine, but is probably going to die soon'ish. It keeps leaking water from the auto-defrost cycle out the front door, and I can't get it adjusted to stop doing that. It's getting pretty old though, so can't complain too much. If I need to get a replacement, I'll probably consider another Subzero, but could be convinced otherwise. A friend recently bought a Miele fridge and must have gotten a lemon, unfortunately. So, that's scaring me a little bit.

I can't make any recommendations on wall ovens. I actually like the oven that is built into our BS range, and I wouldn't have space for a wall oven. The built-in oven gets used several times a week for both cooking and baking bread. Works better than any other oven I ever had. After five years, the oven igniter finally died, but was trivial to change out myself.

As far as service in the Bay Area is concerned, I have had excellent luck with Gourmet Appliance in Halfmoon Bay. They serve all of the Bay Area, and the couple of times that I needed them, they were at our house within about two hours of calling. They were always very clear about charges up-front, and I found their policies very fair and reasonable. They are not cheap (who is?), but actually a lot less expensive than I had been afraid. I don't think I'll ever call anybody else.

They service all the higher-end appliance brands out there, unless it is a brand that does its own service (Miele?). They definitely don't scare away from "niche" or "boutique" brands.

As for buying appliances, we have been buying from Davies Appliance in Redwood City for years, and we have been steering friends and family that way too. They have a show room with most of the brands that I am interested in. Their sales people don't seem excessively pushy, and actually know their products. And prices are surprisingly close to what I could find online. In the end, I don't mind paying a minor premium for local service, a good show room, and assurance that everything will be set up (and hauled away, if needed) properly.

I am sure there are plenty of other businesses around. So, don't feel you have to use these two recommendations. And if you really need the cheapest price, ordering online is usually the way to get that. But just letting you know, that I personally have had great luck with both of these places.

I'd recommend the Bosch 800 series d/w. We just installed it 6 months ago after having Kitchenaid for 30+ years. It's incredible--so quiet, and it also cleans heavily baked on food (cheese, etc.) like a dream. I didn't think any dw could do that! I think it may be less expensive than the Miele as well.

Also love my new Subzero 42" s/s fridge. It replaces my original Subzero bought 27 years ago, which worked great, needing only 3 or 4 minor repairs in all that time.

The rest of the appliances are GE Monogram--36" rangetop with 6 burners, 36" vent hood, Advantium speed oven and 30" single convection oven.

But I too agonized over the appliance selections, since they are SO expensive! Stayed away from the wolf ovens because of the chipping enamel issues (and they are really pricey), and got a discount by purchasing the 4 GE monogram items (the $2000 range hood discounted to $500). I'm perfectly happy with the sealed burner rangetop but I'm not a gourmet cook and it works fine for my needs. It's very easy to clean as well.

I'm in the NY metro area, so I can't comment on service in SF, but all the appliances, 2 sinks, and 2 faucets came to about $20,000, including the 8 5/8% sales tax here :( Purchased them from a top-notch appliance dealer who deals only with professional kitchen design firms (by appointment only). They were incredibly knowledgeable, and have most of the appliances actually working in the showroom so you can really see how they work. Because these items have a fixed price to dealers AND a fixed minimum sales price set by the manufacturers, the pricing was the same as online or any other discounter in the area. I would NEVER buy an appliance online--you just don't know what you're getting and have no local recourse should the product need service during the warranty period.

Good luck with your choices!

I am going through the same process as you. There is no question in my mind about the dishwasher, I have a Miele now and my new one will be a Miele. Okay, maybe one question, which model? The best value I think is the Crystal, but the Dimension has the auto open at the end of the cycle and an extra quiet mode that may be useful for me. The K2O is not something that I am interested in.

I too have been agonizing over fridges. My first choice is the Miele because I like the interior layout the best, particularly the freezer. It seems to have the best use of space for my needs. Unfortunately, a 42" configuration works best in my space so I am going with the Thermador. I do not like the freezer section of the Sub Zero, and have a slight preference for the Thermador fridge interior. It also helps that the Thermador is significantly less expensive. If I end up splitting up my columns I will do the Miele freezer and Thermador fridge.

Between the Wolf and Miele combi steams, it seems that either choice is good. Does the Wolf come in a plumbed in version? Is that a consideration for you?

My wall oven choice is between the Miele and the Gaggenau simply because both companies have consistently great reviews. The Miele doesn't require you to take the racks out during the self clean cycle, so that is a nice feature.

I have no thoughts on the rangetop as I have decided to take the induction plunge!

At this point I am too exhausted to think about exhaust. (Sorry, bad joke). I know that VAH has many supporters here on GW, and every single appliance sales person I have talked to recommends the VAH as well, although I don't know if that is because they think it is a superior product or they get a better commission. I decided to not think about venting and just go with the VAH.

Good luck with your choices!

I have a 36" BS RCS range and it's wonderful. Cooks like a dream. I love open burners so I'm sure the RNB range top would be great too. When we were waiting to move in to our house during our remodel (got delayed a few times) we stayed with friends who have 36" Wolf range top with griddle. Very nice. I'm not a griddle person, we never use one, but my friends do and they love their griddle. I didn't use the griddle but I did use the burners and they were very nice to use. I prefer the BS ones but the Wolf ones were much nicer than I expected (my bias for open burners is showing!). I have a Miele fridge, not the columns. I've had it for many years and no problems at all. I love our fridge! We kept our dishwasher b/c it works fine, but we'll most likely get a Miele to replace it when it doesn't work well anymore. As for hoods, I got a Prizer hood for over our range. It works so well! I highly recommend a Prizer. The one downside to it is the baffles don't fit in our dishwasher. But they are easily cleaned in my sink.

I highly recommend the Wolf E series ovens. They perform far better than any other oven I have ever seen. Preheat is fast, and they retain the heat long after being turned off. The most exceptional characteristic is that the dishes are always perfectly cooked. When we first got the Wolf ovens, my husband asked if I had a new recipe (for dishes I had made dozens of times before). It wasn't a change in recipe, just a HUGE improvement in cooking due to the Wolf ovens. Everything has turned out better in the Wolf ovens!

Wolf also has truly exceptional customer support. We had some issues with faulty installation, but Wolf helped us promptly and continuously until the problems were resolved. I know of no other company, of any product, that responded so avidly to a problem.

As for the porcelain issue, a Wolf technician told me that, of the >500 ovens he services in a multi-state area each year, one or two have a problem with porcelain chipping. I understand this problem has now been resolved. In two years with two Wolf E series ovens and numerous self-clean cycles, I have had no issues with porcelain chipping.

@M: Thank you for the pointers. I've actually been to Davies a few times. I did find their staff knowledgable, and I definitely agree on the non-pushy vibe. In fact they are a bit too non-pushy :) At some point I want someone to greet me and say, "Hi, let me know how I can help". They do have a very nice Wolf/SZ setup now, though I wish they had some live units. I'll give them another shot thought. Any specific sales person you like there? Re Gourmet Appliance, that's the same place Airport Appliance recommended too, so thats good to know. Let's hope I never have to use it :) Thank you!

@Diana: Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure my brain can handle more options at this point :) Hope everything works for years to come for you :)

@sherri: Re DW, I'm leaning towards the Dimension more and more. I looked at it again today, and I still like it :) K2O doesn't do much for me either. Re Combi plumbing, that's not a big deal to me, and Wolf doesn't come plumbed.

I played some today with the Miele M-Touch Steam, and that interface is really nice. I'm generally not a big fan of touchscreens on my appliances, but the interface was very intuitive. The Wolf is a bit more cryptic but I do like the roll-y wheel.

I haven't looked at VAH, do they have built-in options? I have to cull my choices or my wife will kill me :)

@malabacat: I appreciate the Wolf vs BS feedback. I think this is my toughest call yet to make. Open vs closed, the eternal quest :)

@repac: That's great to hear. I'm glad they are working out for you. I have a data point of sorts about chipping. I visited an appliance store today, and had a chat with the sales guy about the chipping. He said that when he visited the factory in Wisconsin back in September, Wolf brought up the chipping issues and said they have addressed it with the enamel manufacturer (local there as well) and have resolved the issue. He was pretty surprised when I told him that there have been reports of chipping after that.

Thanks again all for the feedback.

If you cannot find a place that has a BS stove connected to a gas line so that you can try it out, and if you really want to see it in person, let me know and you can come by and take a look at our 30" RNB.

I don't think Gardenweb has an option to send personal e-mail, unfortunately, but if you speak up, I'll set up a temporary e-mail address for you, so you can contact me.

@M: Thank you for the offer :) I was actually able to see a live unit today (30" range), at Atherton Appliances. The BS burners look nice. They have it sitting right next to a live Wolf unit so you can get a side-by-side comparison, visually anyway. The Wolf burner felt very precise and consistent with flame control. I didn't get quite the same feeling with BS from my recollection, but I was probably too mesmerized by the flaming star to notice :) Also, to be fully transparent, 1 out of 4 burners (front left) didn't light. My one area of concern with BS is what happens at the low end? I don't do anything fancy like sauces, etc. I make a lot of grains in a pot though like rice, buckwheat, etc. Is it good enough or will it boil all the water out and toast 'em? It's hard to interpret what people say about the simmering ability as it feels to me that everyone has a different opinion of where the threshold for simmer really is.

By built in, I assume you mean an insert for your custom cabinetry? That is the way that I am headed.

I made the most beautiful pot of rice on my new BS range top last night. I used the simmer burner. I did use a diffuser on it. The pot I was using was really small. I used a 2 quart All-clad. Light, fluffy and perfectly cooked in the appropriate amount of time. My eggs are a thing of beauty. While I have very sound technique, it just reinforces the necessity of superior equipment for superior results. Tonight it's scallops. Thus far, I'm a happy customer.

There's no mystery about a simmer. It's a small-bubble boil that can be very slow to rapid depending on how the heat is adjusted on the burner. If the burner is too large or too powerful it cannot maintain a slow simmer since the heat doesn't go low enough to do that. Stacked burners are one solution to that. Well machined, lower power burners i.e. "simmer burner" is another approach. Some can go very low which gives very good control.

The drawback of a range/rangetop with all the same size high output burners is the low end. We've read these complaints about BS and Culinarian here over and over. (I own neither and am not in the business of selling anything).

Anyone who regularly sautes in 12-14 inch skillets certainly will enjoy a high output burner. That's why I favor a variety of burner outputs and even sizes but one good for saute; another for simmering. For me that is much more important than open/closed (though there may be vehement disagreement with this statement) though close attention must be paid to burner configuration and size of the caps. But a well-designed closed burner range/rangetop will give good results. No one with a Lacanche seems to complain about not having enough power or uneven heat. Ditto La Cornue.

Re vent hoods. I was on track to purchase a Vent a Hood until I read the cleaning instructions. It is a hood without baffles. It has a different type of assembly. VAH always have been highly regarded but some don't want to go through the complex cleaning. The Best by Broan is another hood I've seen recommended for high powered ranges. I believe that one has baffles. In any event, before purchasing ANY appliance some of us have taken up the habit of thoroughly reading the user manuals if you haven't already. It's amazing what you learn from those. For me, that's time well spent and should make some of the decisions easier to make.

@sherri: Yup, going to have a custom cabinet around it.

@homechef: Sounds good :) Sounds like a diffuser is a requirement with the BS?

@rococogurl: Thank you for that feedback, you make some great points. Between Wolf's 3x15k + 1x9.2k and BS's 2x22k + 15k + simmer (~9k i think), is that enough variance in the burner configs? We have an old Viking with capped open burners now of all the same size and it's workable. I wish I had one smaller burner for a 1.5qt pot. Re hood, our we currently have a Best selected, so we'll just probably stick with that. Thanks!

Grrr. Now I started looking at the Capitals again... I hate the internet sometimes :)

The need for a simmer burner depends a lot on personal preference and cooking style. For our four-burner 30" RNB, I felt that having a dedicated simmer burner was a big waste. I'd rather have four full-power burners. So, I swapped out the simmer burner against another 15kBTU burner. I'd probably feel differently, if I had the luxury of having a 6+ burner range.

I find that I can turn down even the powerful 22kBTU burners sufficiently, that I rarely miss a dedicated simmer burner. Most of the time, unless I actually need more than two burners at that moment, I don't even bother using the 15kBTU burners in the back. And I have no trouble making things such as sauce hollandaise on the big burners, even though that is a very temperature sensitive dish.

The extremely even heat distribution with Bluestar's burners, makes things much easier in general, and unlike the horrible Viking stove that the house used to come with, I never need to use a diffuser plate. On very rare occasions, I turn the grates so that they lift the pots by a little bit. That helps when really low heat is needed.

But I generally either use the microwave for things that otherwise need a simmer burner (e.g. melting butter or chocolate); or if I need a really long and even simmer for a stew, I instead put the pot in the oven. I find the results are generally superior that way. So, yes, if your cooking style differs, you might appreciate having a dedicated simmer burner; I just don't find I have a need for it.

@somedude - I like a range of burner output. There is no question that an open burner with star configuration will give even heat. The issue is with control of the lowest output burner -- complaints have come up repeatedly on this for BS and Culinarian. Not to say there aren't exceptions or work-arounds. With due respect to M, I don't want to adjust a burner grate to simmer.

I absolutely require a 100% dependable simmer burner which I use every
day for something as simple as sweating a soup base, or making a quick
sauce for fish, simmering tomato sauce or beans, cooking oatmeal or
cream of what without lumps etc. Also, say I'm reheating 2 portions of
soup or a serving of beans. I use a 1 quart saucepan for that and I
don't want that tippy or tricky on a monster burner. With little ones
that can become an issue since reheating food happens in small
quantities for their meals.

This is top of the market stuff. Things should work as promised. Service should be excellent if needed. You had mentioned a griddle. With that, there are only 4 burners. So high power burner front left; simmer burner front right. I don't think a 22K burner is useful in back. I would want 15s there. Here's why: whatever you're cooking, high power and low power cooking requires more attention. Once that's done, the pot/pan can usually move. With 6 burners, then the high outputs would be on either side and simmer in the center with medium output in the back.

I would never need more than a single 22K burner because I rarely saute and never deep fry. I'd use it for boiling water for pasta, for searing, and for cooking large pots. Usually I grill inside or out and oven roast.

Even heat is very important. But I can tell you from learning to cook when no residential stoves had high output burners, good cookware can make a huge difference. A single French copper saute pan or a Deyemere saute will make any high heat cooking task easier and smoother.

Also how much anyone is cooking at a time makes a difference. I certainly understand have a larger number of higher output burners if someone is cooking for six or eight people or more all the time because quantities are large. Then you give up some of the control for the output.

Seems like the pivot is: how important -- given your needs now and going forward -- is another 7K on any single burner vs better control and excellent service should it be required down the line?

Re Hollandaise and melting chocolate. The first can be done in the food processor without any cooking on the stove. The second is easiest in the microwave. Anyone using a top for those is working too hard with too much clean up. I view those as marketing ploys.

I think you misunderstood me. Sorry about that.

I am not saying that simmering is useless. In fact, each and every one of the activities that you listed is something that I do quite regularly. I just use the 22kBTU front burners and turn them all the way down.

My point was merely that with the way I cook and the tools that I use, I have no need for a /dedicated/ simmer burner, as my general-purpose Bluestar burners have enough range to not necessitate a dedicated low power burner (and with only four burners, I'd much rather have all of them be of the general purpose kind). As I said, I never even bothered getting out the simmer plate in all the five years that I have used the stove pretty much daily. And I can probably count the times that I raised the grate on the fingers of one, maybe at most two hands.

I can theoretically envision scenarios where I would need so little power that the big burners cannot be turned down sufficiently. I just have never run into a single one of them.

I also understand that there have been reports of BS having unreliable low-power output. And I do realize that a "normal" BS range comes with a simmer burner, and mine is unusual in the way that I customized the burner configuration.

I personally cannot reproduce the problem with unreliable temperature control, but I don't doubt that other people truthfully report it. Maybe, I just got really lucky. Or maybe, these other stoves were adjusted incorrectly. I bought my RNB at the time, when Bluestar sent out technicians a month later to double-check that everything was set up correctly. It is possible that this one-time adjustment hasn't happened for others (although it is easy enough, I could probably make adjustments myself, if I felt like it; the mechanics are pretty brain dead basic). But I am just speculating...

P.S.: I like your suggestion for making Hollandaise. I never felt it was /that/ difficult on the stove top. But any labor savings is good. I'll give it a try next time. Learned something new today :-) Thank you!

Rococo, You are so right. Hollandaise can be made beautifully in a food processor or my favorite, Vitamix. The microwave is the perfect tool for melted chocolate. I don't even own a double boiler. Having said that, I've had my BS 36" range top operating for two weeks. What a sweetheart. Tonight, seared scallops, sautéed spinach and caramelized carrots. I used the simmer burner with a diffuser the other night for perfect rice. I really value the precision.

Thank you very much for the advice. You've been very helpful. I'll update when I order everything :)