I feel I am often in this position of wanting things that I feel are bad value or overpriced, and trying to decide where to splurge and where to call a time out.

Like everything, maybe a compromise is a work around?

I would ask her, frankly, how you might be able to change the scope of what she does in order to hit your target figure. Too often people are afraid of conversations like that (not saying that you would be, i've no idea) or they are made to feel awkward by vendors with such conversations, ie that it's a bad reflection on them or implies they just "can't afford it". I think the onus is on all of us to use resources wisely, and that includes asking tough questions and trying to get good value!

Oh Daisy, no doubt this one will be a hard decision and hurt regardless of the direction you go. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but in this case it seems you get what you pay for. BUT if she can give you a design with maximum results, offer a second set of eyes with the job and provide some balance, maybe the expense is worth it.

Yup. That's totally me mtn. I hate that conversation, but I think it is worth having. I also suspect she thinks part of her fees will be paid by insurance but none will be (we've explored that option). Although I have no reason to question her morals, I have run into the phenomena of people thinking cost doesn't matter if insurance is paying for it. I will let her know during that conversation that we will be footing the whole bill.

Regroup. Prioritize. Are there places you can cut back on her services? I would talk to her, explain your disappointment and be honest with her about what your budget will allow.

I have found that asking what she can do in X budget is the best way to set up that conversation. You value what she brings to the job, but it's a big project that you didn't plan for......etc.....etc. If she thinks you are just asking her to cut her fee, the conversation could go very differently.

I've kept up on your situation and I just want to say I'm sorry you're going through this.

I think you need to tell her that you like her ideas and want to work with her but insurance is not involved in anything design related and that you have budgeted X amount for a designer which is below her quote and what does she suggest. I would hope she can come up with ways to scale back her involvement but still give you guidance.

Great advice everyone. I think I will put your ideas together and compose an email to her now. Then she can take the time to look at what she thinks she can get done on our budget and maybe we can meet somewhere in the middle.

Remember you have options and YOU are in the driver's seat here. She sounds talented, but isn't the only game in town.

Take your time and pull back for a moment to think about other options if this doesn't work out.

Don't go into any negotiation without a backup plan, or else you wind up capitulating to someone else's terms.

Know what your walk away number is, and stick to it!

"They all made what I would consider rookie mistakes and just really didn't seem at all professional. However, they didn't charge me much"

There may be very good reasons why this individual's fees are what they are. I think because "design" is something that people can only think of as intangible, they really have trouble assigning actual monetary values to it. Let's put it in another perspective.

You aren't going to get a Robert Kardashian-style (OJ Simpson) criminal defense mounted out of the public defender's office.

You are also not going to get the same level of service from a $2400 one-day attorney consult than you would if they were your attorney on retainer with billable hours.

I am not saying that you have to hire this woman all-or-nothing, or that you should spend money you don't have/want to spend/see the value in spending. There are plenty of services I can't afford or don't want to pay--I get that.

But please do not hire this woman on a consultation basis, severely restrict her input and responsibilities and then write a post in here next year about how you are yet another person that got screwed by a designer who didn't do her job correctly. Because really she won't be doing the job that she is suggesting that she do, but a limited part of it. If you lower her input, and lower her salary, you have to lower your expectations and remember that you and your contractor will be on your own with some decisions.

Let's put this in a purely tangible form. Say you do hire her for limited input.

You go to your local Mercedes Benz dealership and test drive an S-Class Sedan (starts at $94,000). Well, $94 K is ridiculous, you aren't paying $94K for a car. But you want a Mercedes. So you buy a CLA-Class (starts at $31,000). Well, that's better price-wise. But you're disappointed because you did not get the "Mercedes" you paid for, it's nothing like the S-Class. Well of course it isn't, it's the budget Mercedes for people who want a Mercedes at a Honda price.

I understand your point Pal. But, why can't the designer assist only on the most important parts of the project to keep the cost down? Are you saying that if Daisy doesn't agree to the original proposal than anything less will be disappointing?

I have always been afraid to tell a designer my budget first. You have $100,000 to spend, will they then say, "Oh no, I can do that for $75.000!"?

I think there used to be a design show where the client was offered different options and price points. This approach to me would be fair.

And the other thing you said is that her services are "relatively frivolous". If what she is doing is indeed frivolous, I would pass, and rely on advice and opinions on GW, which are valid and helpful but also too numerous and varied and need to be sorted through.

But the idea that you think her services are frivolous is the reason why you don't want to pay her what she thinks she's worth.

I agree that some sorts of design services can seem frivolous, unnecessary and a luxury. I would never pay someone a high hourly rate to help me pick out clothes for example. I probably wouldn't pay someone a high hourly rate to help me pick out throw pillows. (If I wanted custom it might be different, but shopping, not so much).

However all design services aren't frivolous in this way, particularly in a construction remodeling context. They can be very important. Every single man-made article we touch, every built environment we inhabit or utilize was designed by somebody. Is that frivolous? Yes? Well what about when you are using something that is poorly designed? What about using a kitchen that's got a lousy or dangerous layout. Is good design frivolous then?

Yes, ellendi the designer can be used to "assist" (which I think it another word that diminishes designers, to some extent. No one says their physician assisted them or their hair dresser assisted them with their haircut). But it's not going to be the same job he or she could do, if it was a complete job. That's perfectly fine. But don't expect at 100% job with 33% input and then blame the designer solely for the parts that you don't deem perfect. It's not fair to do that and I think people do that a lot.

"Are you saying that if Daisy doesn't agree to the original proposal than anything less will be disappointing?" Not automatically, not necessarily. But it won't be the same as the original proposal, and for some people that's automatically a disappointment.

Could you ask around and find out what those services cost in your area?

seems to me that your sticker shock is caused by what you thought it would cost versus what it really is, and maybe once you have the conversation/email with the designer she can put the amount in perspective as to the number of hours involved, etc.... and what amount of service you would get for a lesser amount. then you decide.

I think the OP used "frivolous" as a relative term: frivolous as compared to the need for food, basic shelter, dental and medical services.

I wonder if there are ways to limit the designer's involvement that make the most sense?

Dh is an attorney at a very expensive law firm and sometimes his firm is hired for just portions of a case such as the summary judgment motion and trial while another lower-priced firm handles other things such as discovery. It's not ideal in some ways, but I know dh is not insulted in the slightest and it can be a huge cost savings for the client.

Is there some equivalent division here? Maybe the designer helps only with layout and daisy is on her own for choosing finishes? Or the designer only works on the downstairs and daisy is on her own for the upstairs?

But by that definition, everything that Americans do above basic food, shelter and health services. (and I would add public education) is frivolous.

But even the components of shelter have to be designed by someone who knows what they are doing.

crl_

There is nothing the matter at all with that solution as long as the client accepts that parceling out of the responsibilities in this way is not going to be identical with the very expensive law firm handling the whole case. As long as everyone knows this it can be a great solution.

Let's look at this solution though. crl_'s husband's firm is perfectly fine farming out parts of the case to cheaper firms.. What they are not doing is handling the entire case themselves at the lower rate the client is willing to pay.

Exactly to Pal,s last sentence.

However, I don't see anything wrong, ever, with questioning ones options about what is necessary and critical and what could be foregone or even just perhaps delayed. I hate the feeling of being bullied into spending money just because I can.

I had a very large family room once that I was clueless about how to furnish and arrange- total blank slate except for windows and fireplace. but, I am pretty confident in knowing what I like and color and what 'looks good' together to me and enjoy that and knew I wouldn't want to hire someone to do that for me .

I decided to bid on and 'won' a ~ 2-4 hr block of a local designer's time at an auction and I used the person for her ideas on layout, etc and found her to be very, very helpful. she provided me with a vision and I was able to go from there and do my room... I know she would have been very happy to design it for me, but she also was happy to really help me for the time that I had her... I made it clear to her upfront that I wouldn't be hiring her to shop for/with me and make actual choices...

I'm not suggesting that the designer in this instance should be willing to accept a lower rate of compensation.

But just carrying the attorney explanation further, dh's firm actually does also negotiate rates. Often. They will lower hourly rates for some clients based on things like volume of business, or agreements to pay bills more frequently so the firm is floating less work, or history of paying bills promptly and in full without arguing and on and on. Dh refers to his hour rate as a rack rate and then various discounts. This is very common practice with law firms at the upper end of pricing.

That was really an aside though. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's inherently insulting to bring up the subject of containing costs in some way. It's done in other industries regularly. I think the trick is to do it in a way that conveys that you think the work the designer does is a valuable contribution but you have a limited budget and would like to come up with a way to use your budget that is acceptable to both parties. I haven't worked with a designer before though so I'm not sure how the work can be divided so that the designer's input is valuable and the designer's work is fairly compensated.

Totally agree with Pal on the value of design. There are levels of assistance that can help you, just like a wedding planner. You can hire a wedding day, full service or something in the middle as we chose. Our planner provided us information on vendors, but the meetings and final "design" were our responsibility. She was a tremendous help rather than a disappointment because I knew what I signed up for.

Our contractor was a design/build firm, but we had the major components and design chosen before they started, so our design needs were less. I just needed help with placement and validation that we made the right choices. That was reflected in the hours/cost associated with the job.

Make sure you talk budget from the very beginning. I've seen a number of questions already that, if you haven't discussed budget yet may all come back with a "yikes". And, as an older homeowner, you know what happens when you open walls. We had so much old termite damage in the living room that the little bas*****'s ate the the framing AND lath so the plaster was just hanging there all by itself. We stopped opening things up at that point knowing we'll have to deal with it in a later phase.

So each of the changes you make have a design cost, build cost and contingency cost. Be upfront with everyone, use their assistance where you really need it and don't walk yourself into a bunch of things you find you can't/won't afford. Set realistic expectations and priorities from the beginning and the whole job will be easier on you.

Sorry, just running out for a bday dinner with hubby, so can't answer everyone.

I totally get your point pal and agree that (at least for me) living in a poorly laid out/designed home would drive me nuts. But I know some people who couldn't care less. My mom is one of those people and part of me feels I should spend my money on something more "useful" like a car for her or it feels like I should do something less selfish with it like donate it to charity. I don't know - just feels weird to spend so much money on something like design. But on the other hand I know that good design can make or break a house.

I spoke to a few other people today and they think that what she is doing is almost akin to what an architect would do (space planning/drawings contractor will use) and that the amount she is asking is actually not very much. I think we will review her breakdown of costs and probably just go for it. If we cut back anywhere it will be with colour choices of paint fabrics etc. I'm pretty good at that and you all can help, right?