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hairmetal4ever

trees from seed, continued

hairmetal4ever
8 years ago

I posted some pics last week (that nobody seemed to care about...haha) of some trees I'm growing from seed.

Next year I want to try a few species I haven't yet and wanted feedback from those who may have done so.

Liriodendron tulipifera: I've read about VERY low viability. I tried L. chinense with zero germination this year. Sheffield's has one seed lot that says it has around 50% germ, Schumacher's is lower. However - the stratification times I've read seems to vary widely, with Sheffield's recommending 180 days (!) and other sources saying 90. Can anyone tell me the "real" answer?

Taxodium distichum: I'd prefer a more "northern" provenance, since at least some will be given to my dad in Ohio. Sheffield's has some from 2010 from MO - are those any good? Although Sheffield's generally has good seed storage and I've had mostly good results (I even got 18 month old Bur Oaks to sprout around a 50% rate from there), I'd still be a bit shy about using 5 year old seed.

Nyssa sylvatica: Much easier to grow from what I've seen, but any feedback would be nice.

For all three, about how much growth could I expect with good care the first season for these species?

Comments (66)

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Was reading up on the Schuettes oak. Always knew we had a lot of them-naturally occurring-right in this area I happen to live in, but did not know, the hybrid was first described from this state. No wonder it's so commonplace.

    +oM

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I'm curious to see what my Schuette's oaks end up looking like. As seedlings most oaks look similar, and these resemble my bur seedlings more so than anything else. Makes sense being half-bur. The acorns resembled small Bur acorns more so than Swamp White.

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  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    So has anyone grown Liriodendron tulipifera from seed?

  • gardenprincethenetherlandsZ7/8
    8 years ago

    One of the few species I haven't sowed! Can put it on my list (together with L. chinense) for this coming autumn.


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    One odd thing I've found, is that most of my seedlings, Quercus coccinea in particular, still lean noticeably towards the sun, even outdoors in a full/filtered sun location.

  • wisconsitom
    8 years ago

    Hair, I find the naturally-occurring Schuettes oaks in this area-roughly speaking, the area around and just above Lake Winnebago in wisconsin, of course-to be extremely good-looking oaks. I've seen highly educated, certified arborists disagree on what to call them, with bur being the most common answer. But they are-at least the ones I'm talking about-less squatty than some bur oaks tend to be, much more imposing, with large, branch-free trunks. Now bear in mind, we took one of these monsters down recently following its demise due to lightning strike, and we got lost in counting the rings in the very tightly-spaced central rings.....in excess of 300 years.

    +oM

  • jocelynpei
    8 years ago

    Here are some korean pine seedlings. Don't know much about them, but asked on here a while back for how to start them. I

    t worked. I planted them in soil from under the original trees, 2 months on the kitchen table, warm; followed by 3 months in the fridge. This is what happened.

  • terrene
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I winter-sowed some Liriodendron tulipifera 3 years ago - my records indicate I sowed 9 seeds, and only got 1 seedling. That is relatively low viability, but who knows the reason. I haven't tried sowing it again.

    That little tree was doing great, still in the pot outside in the pot ghetto, until the winter of 2014, which it did not survive. I usually clump together the pots on the east side of the house, and insulate them with leaves. This works just fine for most of the plants, but I always lose a few, and some winters are worse than others. I am sure the species is hardy here (borderline 5/6) because there's a big tree growing in a neighbor's yard down the road which has to be at least 50 years old.

  • mana naja
    8 years ago

    Wonderful pics. Thanks for sharing.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    What amazes me is the huge variation among the oak genus as far as how much they grow in the first season. Quercus macrocarpa and michauxii can hit 3' the first year. Some others barely make it past a few inches.

  • jocelynpei
    8 years ago

    Yes, red oaks, Q rubra, make 6 to 12 inches unless you start them in the house. If they flush the second time, and not all will, they make another 8 inches before setting them out. Once you set them out, at least a 46 degrees north, that's it.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Quercus x sternbergii (shumardii x buckleyii) seedling. Tiny thing, maybe 2 inches tall, but it is starting a second flush of growth.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Two redbuds (Cercis canadensis) on left. Upper right is the Cladastris kentukea (American Yellowwood) I posted about that still has part of the seedcoat stuck around the stem. It's growing, and it does look like the seedcoat is starting to look "tight" probably due to the stem thickening a bit, so I'm hoping it breaks off eventually. I don't want to try to do it myself, because I'm pretty sure I'll snap in half or crush it.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Seedlings on the lower left, with the slightly reddish tint to the leaves, are Quercus macrocarpa. Directly behind them, Aesculus flava.

    The brighter green ones on the right in the next tray, are Quercus michauxii.

    You can see next to the buckeyes on the right, two very tall Oak seedlings. These are Schuette's oak, Q. x schuettii. A bicolor x macrocarpa cross. These things are nearly a foot tall and healthy looking little suckers. I wish I had more than two, but I'm very grateful to Dax parting with the acorns.

    You can barely see right in front of the Schuette oaks, two of my Q. prinus seedlings. Those are the ones who leaves haven't fully expanded yet; they're much smaller, and farther behind. They're perfectly healthy, they just took forever to break the surface .

  • gardener365
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Looking great everybody.

    This is all stuff that's been in my
    greenhouse that was moved yesterday to my hoophouse. Growth has all
    taken place in the greenhouse for the last month or better on most.

    F2 Hark pecan 2nd-year


    2nd-year paw-paws

    far top left a heartnut seedling - Quercus sternbergii - grafted Q. macrocarpa witches broom 'Omega'

    Quercus x sternbergii

    on heat mats with holes drilled in the totes: grafts of pecans, hicans, and fruit trees

    Have a lot to do yet.

    Dax

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Awesome pics, Dax!

    Your sternbergii are larger than mine, although my other seedling is closer in size to yours, but not fully "leafed" out yet from the first shoot out of the acorn, since I don't have a greenhouse. However,it looks poised to be about the same size as yours.

    Those "Omega" bur oak brooms look neat. Do you have something going on with the foliage? Looks like anthracnose or some kind of leaf damage.

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Thanks.

    Leaves are a combination of problems. I grafted on plugs purchased during winter and were kept in a shallow tote w/o holes drilled in it & on a heat mat. They dried out and got too wet off and on for 2-3 months... with water that is super high in sulfur. Plus all the humidity from me continuously spraying the walls and floors with water that goes back into the air. They'll look better next-year.

    I sort of assumed you have (2) sternbergii. That's great. You're set. Nice pots by the way.

    Dax


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I do have two Sternbergii. The other isn't fully expanded, it took a lot longer to send top growth. However, it has four seedling leaves instead of three, and as I said, looks like it'll end up the size of your mid sized ones in the picture there.

    They seem to run just a bit smaller upon sprouting then a Scarlet oak does.

    Those schuetti, OTOH...wow. Insane. They are a good 3 to 4 inches taller even then my tallest bur Oaks, despite having a much smaller acorn. I'm curious to see where they all end up at the end of the growing season.

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    hybrid vigor on the xschuettei.

    Have magnolia seedlings and mostly pecan and hickory to up-pot and move to the hoophouse. Cloudy & perfect day to do so... however going to be away all day.

    Dax


  • lucky_p
    8 years ago

    hair,

    Nyssa is easy. They pop up everywhere here - almost as common as callery pear seedlings.

    Several years back, someone sent me some Chionanthus retusus seeds... but something looked vaguely familiar about them...got close to 110% germination rate... leaves didn't look like Chionanthus...kept looking at them for a year or two... but the fabulous orange-red fall color was the giveaway! They were N.sylvatica!

  • grizzlysean_z9b
    8 years ago

    I wish my trees from seed were actually germinating like all of yours. I got some Pinus monophylla (single-leaf pinyon) seeds from Sheffields (whose website described the seeds as having 91 percent viability based on cutting), cold-stratified them for 2 months and sowed them in containers outside at the correct depth (in 5:1:1 pine bark:perlite:peat) and have not seen anything come up in 15 days. I'm in zone 9a (Bay area) and the daily temps have been in the 45 to 70 degree Fahrenheit range. This is a beginner's experience that I want to learn from, but I wish I knew whether there's anything I should have done differently! I also wonder how much longer to wait before I throw out the batch and wait to try again next year.

  • joeinmo 6b-7a
    8 years ago

    Hairmetal,


    Will try and get you some fresh Quercus Fusiformis acorns this October or November.

  • gardenprincethenetherlandsZ7/8
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    @ grizzlysean: Patience is a virtue when sowing woodies. Seeds don't look into germination databases ;) 15 days is a short period: it could be some months before you see sprouts. Did you soak the seeds before stratification?

    That seeds have a viability of 91% doesn't mean that 91 out of a 100 seeds wil germinate: it just means that 91% of the seeds is filled.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks, Joe. Unfortunately I got 0% germination from the ones you sent this time. Probably too old.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Here is my Yellow Buckeye (Aesculus flava) in its second spring (grew spring '14 from a nut). The leader grew 16" this spring.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    This is my "home nursery" area. Close to a wood fence which does provide part day shade as needed...depending on where I position plants and the time of year, I get from 2 to 9 hrs of sun per day here.

    You can see one of my Metasequoia in the lower left, and a second year Quercus michauxii to the lower right.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    The Q. x sternbergii on the right has a full fledged second flush. The one on the left is also a sternbergii, but took longer to sprout-however the first flush is far more robust.

    A q. prinus is right behind the one on the left. I rearranged my seedlings shortest in front to tallest in back.

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Very, very, nice.

    People will know prinus but montana is the proper designation for Chestnut oak.

    Dax


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks, Dax. I thought the "official" designation these days was prinus.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Those Acer micranthum are far more vigorous as new seedlings than most Asian maples I've grown. The tallest are approaching 8" already! Usually with Asian maples, I don't get more than 4" the first season.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    One of the A. micranthums (with the reddish new leaves). 8" and still growing. In the background, a tray of metasequoia. An Acer sieboldanum to the left- I have several of those, but there are a lot less vigorous than the A. Micranthum or japonicum.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    A lone surviving seedling of Cladrastis kentukea. This was the one with the seedcoat stuck on the stem, the seedcoat has popped off.

    I had several other start to sprout but then they routed. They seem to be very very sensitive to too much moisture, even outdoors in part day sun, and extremely well drained media.

    This one is doing nicely though, and really starting to take off the last few days.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago


    Metasequoia. These start off so slowly but then really start taking off around the end of July or early August .

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Wow that micranthum is impressive. Whatever you're doing is working.

    Dax

  • maple_grove_gw
    8 years ago

    Nice to see all of these interesting seedling photos.


    Here's a tray of Pinus armandii seedlings I started last month:


    They've since been potted into individual cells but I don't have a more recent photo.

  • viper114
    8 years ago

    What do you guys do with all your seedlings? Do you just give them away or something?

  • Huggorm
    8 years ago

    "What do you guys do with all your seedlings? Do you just give them away or something?"
    That has been a main problem for me, I might just need one seedling and end up with ten. I give away what I can and plant the rest out in the woods. Killing them is impossible, that would be like killing a pet.


  • jocelynpei
    8 years ago

    Oh, Huggorm, I'm like you, I can't kill them either. I plant some in our woods, give some away at the nutty club meeting and give seed away to the MacPhail Woods nursery, so they can plant some in the Crown land here. (Provincially owned public land)

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Something I noticed that is odd to me. Most oaks, in their first year from seed in my experience, typically do not branch laterally at all in the first season, especially in the first flush out of the acorn, and the second flush. Normally, they just do this, like this Q. michauxii (Swamp Chestnut Oak). This is the second growth flush, and it's just the leader extending, no lateral branching.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    However, I also have some Chestnut Oak (Q. montana AKA Q. prinus) seedlings. Only one has started a second flush as of now, but it's pushing all the buds in the terminal cluster, so not just a leader extending, but some branching. I'm not sure if this is typical of the species, or just something unique to this particular seedling, since none of the others have flushed the second time yet.

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Here are some Pseudocydonia sinensis. I had them under shop lights until yesterday since sometime March.


    One of my best finds of the year. A hopefully stable but remains to be seen: Quercus x libanerris.

    Dax


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Dax, love that variegated oak! I hope it holds up and leafs the same way next spring.


    In a few years if it's still around, I'm sure I'll have to stand in line to get some grafts off it!

  • arbordave (SE MI)
    8 years ago

    3 Toona sinensis seedlings - free to a good home. Best for zone 7 or higher. Parent tree survived for 15+ years north of Detroit with little to no dieback (I had been hopeful that the tree would prove to be zone 5b hardy), but after the winter of 2013-14 it suffered significant dieback. Regrowth was strong in the summer of 2014, but the property owner decided to remove the tree later that year. These were grown from seed started in the spring of 2013. Pots are too big to ship, so if you're from zone 7 and plan to travel to MI this summer and would like to pick them up, send me a message offline.


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Wow, Toona sinensis is marginal even here.

  • arbordave (SE MI)
    8 years ago

    hairmetal: I've read that the species has survived in Cincinnati, and has even been used as a street tree in Philadelphia. But due to its strong tendency to sucker, it's best reserved for parks or large properties where you can give it room to spread.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Quercus xsternbergii with nice second flush (this is the one that sprouted later). Based on the number of leaves in the size of the shoot so far, this one will end up as tall as my tallest Scarlet Oaks, about 10". Not bad for June 1.



  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago


    Four Q. coccinea (Scarlet oak). The two to the top left flushed sooner and are now 10" tall.

    Also Aesculus flava and Q. Montana/prinus plus a sternbergii sticking a couple leaves into the bottom of the pic.

  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    The oaks and buckeyes are starting to shed what's left of the nuts at this point. Except for the Bur oaks. Once they're all gone, I can remove that green fencing from around them. That's to keep the @$&@ squirrels out. I learned the hard way a couple years ago when they decimated every single thing I planted in a matter of minutes.

  • gardener365
    8 years ago

    Most appear ready to be bumped up to a larger pot.

    Congrats on all your success.

    Dax


  • hairmetal4ever
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks!


    Yes, I'll start potting up this weekend.