My dilemma is that I am very much wanting to plant a butterfly garden to attract butterflies, birds, etc. and I don't see it being realistic to get any flowers started under the canopy that exists. Yes, I have a 60' in diameter hole where a pond once sat (it's currently only about 3-4' deep from my estimation, although it is drained and no water exists in it, and this area is mostly sunlight. However, the plan is to fill the pond dug back out and filled back up once we have kids old enough to respect water (I personally want to do it now but my wife is a worrier). So, I don't want to plant any flowers there since it's only a matter of time before that will be flooded again. I only receive partial, at best, sunlight in the rest of the parcel.

But, I will say that I do enjoy the wild life (save the ground hogs anyhow! I'd like to admire them from a distance, not against my foundation). Squirrels, birds, rabbits and probably many other critters that I haven't spotted yet. It's been fun. Although I do enjoy the natural setting, I do think that I will place gravel down one of the main walking path arteries so that I can actually get to the garden/equipment shed at the very back of my lot when it rains.

I am planting only plants that like deep or partial shade. If I see that I have an opening in my canopy that allows sunlight to hit a certain area I plant sun loving plants in that spot.

I understand your wife's worry.

That sunny spot would make a great butterfly/hummingbird garden until you are ready to go back to a pond.

Or in the mean time it would make a great spot for a bog garden.

I wish you my very best and I hope you are enjoying it as much as I do.

How about posting some "work in progress" photos?

I may do the same.

By the way, where are you?

I'm in Hot Springs Village AR.

I felt sick to my stomach when I read the original post...but then rejuvenated when I read all the responses. To clear out 1.5 acres of underbrush, snags, and 5 years of leaf litter with a bulldozer...it left me speechless. My wooded property is about 1/10th that size and I save every fallen leaf, berry, acorn, pine needle, and twig. To buy, haul, spread, and clean 1.5 acres of mulch all year long...I can't even imagine the time and cost. It sounds like a golf course fairway, which could be gorgeous in its own right, but goes against everything we think of when we think of preserving natural, wild forests and wildlife and trails and so on.

Butterfly gardens are wonderful. Although some butterflies like the plants of the woods, you would want a meadow's full sunlight to grow the rich diversity of butterfly-friendly plants. To get that kind of sunshine, you'd have to clear everything from a section of woods, including the tall canopy trees which you'd probably want to cut down with a chainsaw.

If you just want flowers, there are flowers that thrive in the woods, too. Dogwoods are beautiful native flowers of the forest. So are Magnolias down here in the South. The Eastern Redbud lives up to its name. The American Trumpet Vine has beautiful red flowers. The Purple Passion Flower Vine is another.

Let's all play nice. One man's medicine is another man's poison. To each his own.

I have an idea of what he's looking for and it's actually beautiful in its own right (despite my visceral reaction to its ecological unsustainability). I think he's looking for a park-like, golf-course-like, well-manicured, semi-wooded area. He probably would ideally like turf grass underneath the trees. And where grass wouldn't grow, he would probably have beds of bark chip mulch or maybe small clusters of well-trimmed ornamental bushes. We can see similar kinds of traditional landscaping in cemeteries, playgrounds, and country estates. It can be gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous.

My only warning is that would be extremely expensive. As for wildlife preservation and ecological sustainability, that's optional. There are no laws requiring that. There are only crackpots like me who shout about it from time to time.

Same crackpot here!

I wish carpenku would post some photos of his dream wooded area.

If I were him, I would probably run like hell from the eco-crackpots and never return! :)

But I have an even better idea. Rather than spend all that money landscaping his lot to look like a championship golf course, he should first hire one of us to go out there and do a native wildlife and vegetation inventory. It could be that he has a bunch of invasive species that all need to be torn out anyways. Or he could have the last remaining habitat of the endangered ruby-throated sapsucker. One never knows until one does an analysis.

Here is my back woods with junk plants removed, dogwoods, redbuds, magnolias, Serviceberry tree and hollies planted, everything limbed up to open up the view and 17 boulders in place. Since this photo I've been busy planting native woodland plants, shrubs, ferns, and ground covers.

Right now I'm trying to decide what to do with the existing stand of poison oak and ground cover poison ivy.

I had a huge back yard once and I made the mistake of putting in a beautiful winding path of mulch one spring. The next spring everything was covered in fallen leaves - no more path. Money down the drain. If I were to put in a path now, knowing what I know, I would put in something where fallen leaves could be blown or raked off.

My landscaping friend wants to put in a winding elevated board walk through my property. I just can't see that in my natural area.

My very first step was a site analysis. Then you know what you've got to work with and what to get rid of. Makes me think of the Japanese landscaper who did nothing but sit for days each season observing. When asked what he thought he was accomplishing he replied, "I now have very thorough knowledge of sunlight on this property. Now I can landscape.".

Wise man.

I'm in Houston...not too far from Hot Springs. We have most of the same native plants. I love mountainous Arkansas! It's so flat down here. Your pictures look great. I'd like to see how things are in summer once there are some leaves on those Oaks!

I've always thought an elevated boardwalk would be brilliant. The soil underneath can still breathe (unlike with a hardscape path). Only the wood posts would disrupt the root zone. The leaf litter can be swept right off the deck. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be cheap. And it would probably eventually rot, unless periodically re-painted or re-stained.

I think an earthen path through the woods is probably the best. With enough traffic, the soil will eventually become compacted and weed suppression won't be as much of an issue. Drainage would be an issue, at least if there weren't leaf litter. Sometimes no path is the best path of all.

Will post a summer pic later on. Next spring should be glorious.

Alright, hold on, hold on. I'm not destroying anything. I didn't use a bulldozer, it was a bobcat, I used it to dig out the invasive tree/shrub that was literally taking over my back yard. No, I don't know what it is/was, I asked several people and they all referred to it in generally as an invasive honeysuckle. I had to intervene or soon they would have choked out everything. Yes, I cleared away the leaves, I thought it was the right thing to do. As you can see from the pictures I left several small trees that probably don't have a chance to thrive because of the canopy blocking the sunlight above them, but I left them and they were actually very pretty this spring. All of the flowers from the trees are gone now and the green foliage is casting it's shadow. I don't want to control the habitat, I want to manage the habitat. Huge difference. Sometimes nature needs help keeping things in moderation. An invasive species is harmful to the other trees and plants. As you can tell, there is still some work to do, at least in my opinion. The property line extends past the shed you see, I'm standing on my back deck when I took these pictures. I don't want to manage much beyond the shed, what is back there is back there, a small stream runs through the area and I want to keep that area truly wooded. I really want to bring in some color to the floor, specifically placing plants around trees to protect the shallow root structures. As you can tell, I'm in a unique situation as all around me is a developed subdivision. The pond that I referred to has apparently silted in over time but it is directly in front of the garden shed if you can see the crater. I plan to dig it out and plug the tiled drain to allow it to fill back up and add either a sprinkler or an aerator to keep the water moving and non stagnant.

Oh my gosh, that can be so beautiful. You have a stream?! I would kill for a stream! You are so lucky. Keep up the hard work.

Thanks for the pictures! You have a lot to work with. That's a great property. I see the empty pond - that thing is huge - that should be interesting to restore. As for the rest, I'm not sure where you're going, but it should be interesting. If you removed a whole bunch of invasive honeysuckle, you're headed in the right direction. The leaf litter will come back in no time...assuming you want it. You're looking to plant ground cover of some sort, right?

Well, that's one of the decisions that I need to make. I've considered shade tolerant grass varieties like creeping red fescue but... do I really want to attempt to get grass to grow and then have to mow the grass around everything? That's my question. Or should I leave it natural? It looks INCREDIBLY better than it did. If I had taken these pictures 2 months ago all you would see is green honeysuckle shrubs. The ground needs "finishing" graded and at that point I could try to get grass established to prevent erosion and such. Still debating. It's a very uneven surface so mowing will be a challenge if I decide to go that direction. What are your thoughts?

Kudos on getting rid of that invasive honeysuckle.

I suggest you google "woodland garden photos" and "shade garden photos.

One of the most beautiful photos I have ever seen had an area like yours and they had a lamp burning in one of the windows in the shed. Very cozy and homey.

I hope you keep us updated with "work in progress" photos. You are blessed with a beautiful property.

Teach the kids to swim as babies - calm your worries.

Take a look at this!

I think I know what you want now. You want a wild forested area in the back of the property. And you want a more civilized area closer to the house.

For the wild area, keep underbrush growing (as long as it's not invasive) and keep the fallen leaves on the ground. Things will eventually grow back into a wild thicket that will screen the neighboring fences and houses.

For the civilized area, you're on the right track. I see grass on the ground in some of the photos and that's a good sign for what you're looking for. Most grass needs some sunlight, so you may have to cut down a few carefully-selected trees with a chainsaw in that civilized area to let more light in. You should pick a shade-tolerant grass and put down either seed or rolls of sod. Make sure to do it at the right time of year and follow the instructions for watering. It may work and if may not. But it's worth a try.

If you cannot get grass to grow well and if you want to keep all the shady trees, you can always go for that woodland garden look that greencrossing11 was describing. Bring in a bunch of ferns and other shade-loving forest plants that are suited to your region's climate. You won't have to mow or rake them, but you can't walk on them like you can with grass.

For areas to walk around and play, you'd have make paths and clearings of some sort if you don't have grass. You could put down mulch...but it would quickly decompose and get buried in leaves like greencrossing11 was describing. You could do gravel paths, but you'd have to keep them clean with a leaf blower. You could do concrete paths that can be swept with a broom, but too much concrete is going to hurt the trees. You could do dirt paths, but then you'll have issues with mud puddles. Or you could just let the kids run around in the leaves like hippies would do. :)

Or you could let s8us89ds and me drive up and spend two weeks helping you. We'd have fun, fun, fun as long as your money lasted.

Lol

Chances are good that you did indeed remove a species of honeysuckle which is actually non-native and invasive, simply because such exists, and on a large scale in many parts of N.America. Still, it's at least somewhat troubling that positive ID's do not precede this work. From the standpoint of simple logic, one should know what they're doing before they do "it", whatever that may be. There are quite a number of native species within Lonicera (honeysuckles). Just saying. It is to me akin to spraying "for bugs" or some such. What bugs? Are they actually harmful? Is the material being used appropriate for that target ? These types of questions should, in my view, precede action. Obviously, too late in this case.

+oM

Carpenku, I am envious. I love your place. I think I get the image you have in mind. Go for it. It will be beautiful.

Just remember, "Home, home on the range is the only place you will not hear a discouraging word.".

Have a dream and dare to make it come true.

Jim

To follow up on Wisconsin Tom's point, it's always good for any big project to invest time in preparation, planning, measuring, and studying. One of the first principles of permaculture is to quietly observe.

Exactly the point I was trying to make with my Japanese landscaper story.

I've always heard, "Sin in haste, repent at leisure.".

I have really burned up some money digging up plants and correcting my mistakes.

I don't know how Carpenku feels, but I think we have wasted enough time flogging this dead mule.

We too have a wooded lot in north Florida. Any suggestions would be great. Would love to keep it natural but tamed. It's not a big yard. The front can be grass. The one side we are having a 12x32 cement pad with footers poured for an open air covered porch.

Hey allidesigns17! It looks like you have a great "canvas" for Mother Nature to go to work on. The most exciting and fascinating thing is to watch what sprouts up naturally. Remember there is no such thing as "weeds" - only free baby wildflowers, free baby trees, free baby vines, and free baby shrubs. In north Florida, the sprouting season has wound down for this year, so it may be 2017 before you see new stuff sprouting up. In the mean time, don't rake and don't mow! Right now, the only thing that is safe to pull up (by hand or tool) is obvious turf grass. Eventually, you'll learn to recognize invasive species. It often takes a few years of patience before a yard starts to show real progress toward natural reforestation, but it's the fastest and most cost-effective and sure-fire and long-living method. Remember 75% of store-bought plantings die within a year or two. Fortunately, Mother Nature blows that dismal rate away!

Deer.

Deer will make all the decisions for you.

I have an acre of woods behind me and when I moved here I had lovely visions of azaleas and rhodos and various lovely things. Well, the deer had visions of a non-stop buffet.

We still plant things back there- things I pull out of the main yard due to various non-performance issues. And the deer still eat them.

The most we usually do is keep the underbrush cleared out- use a push mower several times a season in the portion closest to our real yard to keep the ticks at bay. Cut saplings, keep the poison ivy dead, and patrol to make sure no neighbors are dumping trash (and yes, they do).

I look at it as a habitat for bunnies and box turtles and hawks and all sorts of things, plus its main function as a backdrop to my garden. Much as I would like to make it into my vision I have learned that it is simply not possible with the deer population here.

No deer here dear since its fenced in. Our boxer keeps the squirrels at bay. Husband wants to clean it up s8! I'm all for leaving leaves etc and cutting down the annoying stuff poison ivy oak etc. he wants to rake it up which is what pest control said to do. A lot of raking! I would like to compromise

Yeah, for the folks who think fallen leaves are "messy" and should be raked, some sort of compromise may be needed.

You might need to rake certain sections and not others. You might start with "paths" that are raked and leave the other areas unraked. Or you could create "islands" or "beds" of fallen leaves, each bordered with landscape stones or other edging so they look intentional.

You could grind up the leaves so they look more like mulch and less like leaves...but that could grind up any seeds, nuts, and berries that would germinate. You ideally want to avoid paying lots of money and transporting and planting lots of nursery-grown trees. The failure rate is too high and the cost and effort are prohibitively slow for reforestation.

There is one other approach. You could purchase 12" bare-root seedlings in bulk via mail order and scatter-plant them. You'd have to order from a special nursery in the Gulf Coast region, pick the right sets of species, and plant them properly and at the right time of the year. The cost is more reasonable (usually $2 per seedling when purchased by the dozens). So the cost might only be a couple hundred dollars. Then you could mark the planted seedlings with posts, carefully rake around them, and even mulch them with traditional-looking mulch.

And you could always collect seeds from nearby parks, neighbors yards, etc. and put them in soil "plugs" or try to germinate them in refrigerators or take cuttings or try other advanced propagation techniques.

I've actually used a combination of these methods. By far, the cheapest and easiest is to let Mother Nature do her thing. And then you can help her along by transplanting, nurturing, etc.

I so do appreciate your knowledge! Amazing. All very good suggestions. We've only been here 3 weeks so I will post new picts as we progress!

I feel ya OP! First thing I am missing is a husband that wants to do outside work more than myself! If I can get him outside to work in the yard, it'll be a miracle and the heavens would open up. We have an acre with mostly wooded area about 2/3rds. We left the leaves one fall and partial spring and the neighbors called the city on us. (No more woodland garden) Of course we have the largest property on the block and only one other house has a wooded lot that share trees with us. I can tell you 100+ mature deciduous trees are no joke in the fall. Then any mulch I put down is covered in leaves leaving a leaf blower to be more of a nuisance. Other than mowing them, or picking them up is the only choice for us. Its a huge hassle for me. If I could hire a husband, that would be my best solution ☺ i recently purchased a hedge to close off my property from the neighbors prying nosy eyes so I can leave my leaves if I darn well please.

Letting fallen leaves remain undisturbed on the ground is the single most important keystone in natural reforestation. Not mowing is the second most important. And removing invasive species is the third. The whole concept of reforestation, either natural or guided, is still relatively unknown in the residential landscaping world. It doesn't generate much income for the retailers. It goes against some traditional ideas of landscaping, tastes, and ordinances. But it's relatively simple and extremely powerful. What some might have described in the old days as "letting things go wild" is a deliberate, even courageous decision by many property owners today. For more information on it, there are a few good books out there. I've personally found resources on forest management to be the most useful. It may seem a little brash to consider a quarter-ace residential lot as a "wooded property" when many people think a yard should contain a patio, deck, turf grass, a couple shade trees, a row of hedges, and a flower garden...but it doesn't have to be that way. You can achieve a very dense patch of woods on a quarter-acre lot. And it will harbor wildlife (hummingbirds, woodpeckers, lizards, etc.) and provide many other aesthetic and environmental benefits. You don't have to live out in the country to enjoy a woodsy back yard. And it doesn't have to take a hundred years or cost umpteen thousands of dollars for professionals. You can go from bare dirt to a good patch of woods in as little as 5 to 10 years. The key is letting Mother Nature take the lead. I mostly do this in my fenced back yard, but I'm also doing it slowly and tastefully in my front yard.

We are going to let the back do its thing but the sides and front we will work for grass and porch. The concrete has been poured on the kitchen side and a roof is coming this week. Just an open air patio. liebenswert so save about your neighbors ruling your property. Doesn't seem right!! Would love to see pics from you and s8!

OP where are those leaves you got rid of? I want them all. Sorta kidding, but, not really. You had gold there that you weren't aware of.

here are a few photos from around my home. as you can see it's very wooded with mature trees. just beyond 1 area you can see the neighbors. but the last photo with the fence shows how our property back up 2 the forest with wildlife such as deer. the fence keeps the deer out and our dogs inside. the problem is that these are mostly deciduous trees. so we are swamped in the leaves and Fallen branches unlike our neighbors which have the standard quarter acre yard with no wooded areas.

"what would you use his leaves for?"

I shred leaves and use them as mulch in the ornamental beds in the cultivated portion of my property. I don't steal them out of the wooded portion, though- those stay where they except for a narrow strip that borders the two areas. We do keep that relatively cleared as a wood chopping station and to keep undergrowth/ticks at bay.

As far as my wooded area- we do try to somewhat keep the undergrowth from getting out of hand, but there is so much of it that it is hard to keep up with when the cultivated portion is so high maintenance. I try to leave my woods alone in hopes that the bunnies and deer etc. will find happiness there and not feel the need to come any closer. It's almost a full time job patrolling the perimeter and seeing that the neighbors aren't dumping crap- I just caught one throwing trash over their fence into my woods last week.

I kindly returned their crap to them by tossing it back over the fence and had a talk with them. Their excuse- "I didn't think anyone owned that property!"

Jeez...

edited my earlier post "dead deer" to "the deer" lol.

"what would you use his leaves for?"

Great info. I have been trying to keep leaves in my compost bin. It takes forever for them to decay but the worms love them. We also get liter bugs! People walking into the forest dump trash on our lot. I complained to city but nothing they or we can do it seems. Grr…

liebenswert, I would use the leaves to make compost and mulch plants with them. If you can shred them with a mower or chipper, they will make compost faster, whether it is in a bin or under your plants. I actually go and collect leaves at the leaf dump every fall. My own trees are getting larger, but I leave the leaves where they are. The leaves are recycled into plant food. I am sure you know all that. poaky1

My Mom had large flower beds, and used to collect bags of raked leaves from friends in the fall. She used them to cover her beds after the ground froze, in case she didn't get a lot of snow cover.

"Autumn Leaves" is not only a beautiful song, but autumn leaves are a blessing from God. I leave them where they fall, run over then with a mulching mower or sometimes after they are mulched I add them to my organic compost heap. I stop on streets and load up with bagged leaves.

"The autumn leaves drift by my window."

I usually have to cover them with wood chips ( free from our composting facility) because the wind would blow the leaves away from where I put them. It's great for places under trees where you want to plant shade/woodland plants once the tree gets bigger and makes lots of shade for the shade plants. It is labor intensive, but I try to only do it with a few trees, oaks are great for that. It kinda makes the soil like nature would do in the woodland.

Poaky1 - Bravo!

If you haven't seen it you must watch the "Back to Eden" documentary by Paul Gautschi. It blows my mind every time j watch it. I'm not growing fruit and vegetables, but his method is perfect for anything you want to grow - in my case - flowers. This documentary is a must watch for anyone who lives gardening and loves Mother Earth. I'm using exclusively the Gautschi Back to Eden method. I am not affiliated with him in any way. This is not maki g him or me any money. You can find free viewing of the documentary if you search.

Liebensedet - load them up and bring them on down to Arkansas. They turn into black gold.

Thanks Rome, I made a note of it, Liebens, your neighbors will actually cause a stink if you leave your woodland, well... like a woodland usually is? They need a hobby or something.

I have learned a lot by reading this thread. Thank you everybody!

Good to know Nancy. I still have bags of whole leaves. I will be covering them with shredded wood. There is so much to do in the yard that I am behind on doing that. I guess those leaves aren't going anywhere.

romeisburning

16 years ago (I was 57 then) I purchased a home in a retirement community - I KNOW I KNOW but it is lovely. The property had some crepe myrtle, some overgrown evergreen shrubs. I got rid of those overgrowns. Hard work but rewarding. Patience can be your best friend. I really do love the idea of a boardwalk path. You just blow or sweep the leaves off onto your plants and it is free food for them. I saw a picture not too long go of Annabelle hydrangea in a woodland area - beautiful -- I would stick with your landscaping friend. On this property, there was a beautiful rhododendron just outside my sunroom - I had trees removed and you know what happened to that rhodo? big mistake. Now I have two rhodos under the 8 long needled pines and they are very happy there. Deer - oh yes they usually leave rhodos alone but they ate the BUDS. Grass in the pine barons is possible.. Just some advice. I paid lawn service to help me with my grass - feeding the grass just made happier weeds in the grass. So much for that. I told myself I can learn how to combat my grass problems - and here goes, Had great success with fertilizer coated grass seeds - then covered the seeds with a little topping of compost with manure on the seeds - and watered between rains -.came up in one week and still going strong.. Also compost all your new plantings you will be amazed at the results. I would forgo any hosta because the deer love them. But check with your friend he/she would know. Oh yes on youtube ther is a great deer inhibiter - fishing line on small posts surrounding your garden attached to empty cat food cans on top of a bucket. When the deer trip the line the can fall off the bucket with a racket and scare the deer off. Check that one out - I am trying it - saves money for more plants and is harmless to deer. Good luck. When I learn how to upload a picture I will upload one.

Thanks Rome, the deer ate leaves off of the Rhodo, but, it's recovering now, at least it seemed to be the last time I checked, I should look again. I have 3 more rhodo's to plant that I have in their pots they came in. As far as hosta's, mine are not above the soil level in winter when deer come and forage in my yard for food, things must be good for them in the growing season, they don't bug my yard plants, so just aboveground plants in winter get deer damage for me here in Pa. I have made some enclosures for my Rhodo's to use in winter. I also put them around my small trees which the deer like to chomp the top off of and not even eat. It's a heavy duty tomato cage with hardware cloth all around it and on top, just push into the soil to cover all areas of the little saplings, I'll use that next year around all of my Rhodies and any trees that may be chomped on in winter. I have them on now, sometimes rabbits and groundhogs will go and behead my trees, just for the heck of it I guess, they don't eat what they chew off. Later.