And yes, I know there is a "Grandparents" forum, but there is very little activity there so I hope this is ok...

bump... anyone?

I'm not a parent, but if he was really defending his younger brother I would be in the school admin offices making damn sure that the kid doing the bullying got *at least* the same punishment as your g-son! (i.e., suspension and loss of bus privileges).

I'd also have him come to your house for the weekend, and I'd give him an extra 5 bucks for ice cream. :)

I'd pat him on the back and tell him way to go. But not to make a habit of it. Thank God mine are all finished with school but that's what I would have done. It doesn't sound like the school authorities have done much to correct the bully's behavior if it has gone on for months. You have to protect your own.

I'd be proud of him for standing up for his sibling. But it was wrong. Sorry that he got suspended. I just think it probably could have been handled differently. My grand daughter was the only girl on her bus in middle school after the bus route began for the day and she was bullied by the boys on the bus. The bus driver did nothing. So her parents went to school. Boys were called in to the office along with their parents. She never rode the bus again, ever. We all saw that she was driven to and from school. Very sad situation all around. Yes we pampered her and still do now that she is college. She is little but mighty and to this day takes no crap out of anyone.

That's tough. I think part of the problem, from the school's perspective, is that they have evidence of physical assault and they have to respond to that. The reasons behind the altercation, being the months of bullying, may not have any actual proof so they are relying on what the kids are saying happened, and even then you'll get different stories from the bullies and the victims. They have to go by the facts, which is that your grandson assaulted another child.

I'm not saying the kids are lying, but sometimes kids do lie. Or exaggerate. They have to go by the facts, and it's harder to catch more subtle bullying.

Now, personally, if I believed my kids were being truthful I wouldn't punish them. I think it's important for people to learn to defend themselves. I was bullied as a child and it still bothers me to this day, so it's definitely a serious issue. I would be raising that up with the school.

As the grandparent it's really not your place to get involved with the school on this matter. You need to respect and accept the punishment that the child's parents have given the child. (Even through you may not see the child this weekend.)

I was just going to say the same thing that maddielee just said. I'd also add that depending on how badly the kid was beat up...his parents could even be responsible for medical bills and could even be sued. Another thing is, life isn't like in the movies and children really don't understand the consequences of their actions...beating someone can result in death unlike what we see in movies where someone can be beat to heck and back and just stand up and brush it off..that isn't how it is in real life and it's very dangerous to hit someone in the head or face!

I for one amjust sick and tired of the bully getting the best it. I would tell your Grandson next time wait til hes off the bus and away from the school and then beat the crap out of that idiot beating up on his little brother. The same thing happened to my grandson, but not on the bus. Well, his bigger sister handled it. Sorry if some disagree, but the bully should not have to get away with it.

If one of my kids had beat up someone who was bullying their sibling I would have hit the friggin roof - of that there is no doubt. The fact that the school suspended him for 3 days would have been nothing compared to what I would be doing. He would be grounded and there would be a lot of talking in our house to figure out the root of the problem that drove him to do this. There is no place for that type of retaliatory violence.

How much pressure has been put on Isaiah in the past to watch over his younger brother. Does he have the maturity and tools to do this care-giving role given his brothers challenges. It's one thing to watch that a younger sibling gets off and on a school bus properly but to have to care for them as well when perhaps he wants to be interacting with his own friends (especially at the age of 13) could be frustrating for him regardless of what a great kid he is.

It sounds like he may need to be given some tools, other than his fists, to deal with this situation. It sounds like he has been grounded and you can't interfere with that - it's his parents decision. But perhaps you can talk to him a couple of times over the weekend. Ask him how he is doing without praising him for what he did. What he did was wrong regardless of what you think.

As for the bully, again it's Isaih's parents job to deal with the school on that and yes, chances are the bully will get away with it again and again. And chances are Isaiah will now become a target of the bully as well.

My DD has had numerous meetings with the school regarding the bullying, they agree to keep watch, and I believe they do. And I believe they do all they can to prevent it, I have to say, this is an amazing school (Charter School) with less than 100 kids. Noah ( the one being bullied) is such a sweet lil guy, he really just tries too hard to make friends with everybody & thats what makes him a target :(

I know it will be hard for some to understand how rural & small this community is but believe me when I say that I am not at all concerned that Isaiah will become the bullies target. Isaiah did what he felt needed to be done in order for it to stop. His exact words to his mother " I don't care about the punishment, at least he will leave Noah alone now". He is extremely popular and is one of the oldest in his school (only goes to 8th grade), he has seriously watched this go on forever & I am sure his changing hormones likely contributed to his actions.

Additionally, my DD asks for my opinion & advice all the time & she woulod tell you that it is my business, we are a very close family nd Grandparents often help with raising Grandkids.

I disagree with a few opinions but I asked for them & I appreciate them.

I'll pass on some advice, for what its worth, that my father gave my nephew after nephew physically fought back when some boys taunted him about his last name. Although my father felt that my nephew was justified and understood the reason, he still offered this advice.- Using your fists to solve your problems may not always be advised. There are other ways to solve problems effectively.

Born in 1915, my father was a NYC street kid ruffian, who was small in stature, but learned to be tough. He had to fend for himself since he had very little attention from his parents. He knew how to use his fists but also use his head.

Sticking up for his brother was a good thing and shows character and good values. His choice of beating the other kid up was not the best. At 13, he is not always mature enough to make a good decision, but it sounds like he has had good guidance and nurturing form his family. I understand your disappointment about not seeing your grandson this weekend. I see your point, but I agree with your daughter about the home punishment. A child who is suspended from school should also be grounded. Your daughter's supporting the school's decision does support your grandson.

Schooling is teamwork- child, home, school work together. Communication is important. While your grandson is home, I am sure your daughter will discuss his options fro handling situations in the future. This is a very teachable moment for both boys. The little guy too needs tools and strategies to handle a bully and to avoid being a target.

If your daughter has not previously reported the bullying to the school administration, she should do so now and in the future if it continues. The bullying needs to be documented. Being as specific as possible as to who, what, where, and when is helpful. Some states have a bullying protocol that a parent can choose to file a bullying report. Once the report is filed, the school is mandated to follow up.

Hopefully he realizes that in a few years, it would be a much bigger deal with much more serious consequences. He could get arrested, and have a criminal record for the rest of his life as I don't think the self-defense would work here. He sounds like a bright boy so I doubt it will be an issue, but that would be my biggest concern at this point.

Lisa, I must have been writing my reply when you posted. You and your family are doing all the right things IMHO.

I was about to mention the hormones. He does need to learn to control the pump they give him, and to learn the difference between intervening and beating the crap out of someone. Is there any availability for him to learn organized martial arts? The kind that stresses fighting as a last resort and teaches how to defuse and deescalate a situation?

The one part I'd say butt out of, since your daughter wants your counsel, is the punishment the parents have decided on. I know you're also being punished since it was a visit with you that was cancelled, but it's best not to waffle on these. It's not an out of proportion consequence. If there was a truly special occasion connected, where it's making the whole family suffer more than the kid, then the grounding could be rescheduled with the explanation that doing so is to benefit the rest of the family, rather than being a leniency.

Yes, you're proud of your grandson for sticking up for his brother, but another way this situation can be seen is that all the kids knew they could get away with picking on Noah, and expected to get away with it again, and all of a sudden Isaiah thrashes one of them out of nowhere. That's scary for all the kids, especially from an older and very popular boy. The suspension acts not only as a punishment, but also as a cooling off period for all concerned, especially in a rural area where they won't all meet on the block anyway and it gives them time apart. Rather than combating the school on it, I'd try to talk to them calmly, after the suspension is over, about teaching community, and an anti-bullying curriculum (of which there are many nowadays--good ones). But I also might keep Noah home at the same time Isaiah is so he doesn't suffer while his brother is out of school.

Lisa it's true that his parents get to do the parenting...he is grounded for the weekend, so schedule something different for the closest weekend and just have fun. (Not using the word "reschedule"'on purpose. That visit is canceled, so you can plan a different one.) He's a good kid. I'm sure he's worried about his brother next year when he's not there to protect him. Maybe he can get some good rising 8th graders to sit next to him.

I can certainly understand your frustration at the situation, the well being of our grands is a number one priority and we feel so protective of them even though we're only the grandparents. But just imagine if the bully had done some serious damage to your grandson, that would be a whole new scenario and some people would have seen your grand as the aggressor. It's complicated and sad. I would be wild I know but I'd go along with the parent's decision and leave it there. It wasn't that many years ago that your grandson's position would have been considered admirable and, to me, it was in a way. Beating the crap is going a little too far and that would be why the school has taken a stand on their policy. This will pass and it will all end up fine. I probably would never bring it up again with the family. Let it be.

Of course his parents do the "parenting" but as I said before, we are a close knit family & my DD often seeks my input. I am likely going to ask her to re-consider her decision to not let Isaiah come over this weekend. It simply doesn't seem like a fair punishment.

And no, he is not asked to be his brothers keeper, we wouldn't do that, just to look out for him & stand up for him if the situation calls for it. Which he did & sorry, but I am glad.

None of my kids are "fighters", yet 2 of the 3 got in trouble at school for fighting. I don't remember the circumstances but feel like it's just part of growing up. All kids involved in fights are suspended, except the ones that don't fight back or were innocent of any wrongdoing.

Your grandson used violence. Never a good thing to condone. If it were me as a PARENT, I would punish as he is being punished. If it were me as a GRANDparent, I would have a private conversation to tell him how proud you are of him sticking up for his little brother, but don't condone the violence. Being a close family, I think you have the right to have that conversation.

Schools never want confrontation between students. They want problems to be reported to school authorities to be handled. Yeah right.

Yes, I think you're daughter is right to take away the weekend at grandmas if she feels that is correct punishment.

Lisa - if you feel so strongly, yes, discuss it with your DD. Then accept her decision.

Lisa...as a grandparent, I would not ask your DD to "re-consider" her punishment....that decision was made by his parent, and as grandparents, it is not our right to undermine what punishment has already been made. Let it go...and stay out of it....even if you are "close".

I have discussed this with her & she has agreed to let him come since she had not yet told him he couldn't (otherwise, it would still be a no) Hooray :) I also asked how badly the other boy was hurt & she said he has a few bruises but nothing serious....(phew)

His Papa & I will spend some time talking with him about making better choices going forward, but I for one will let him know that I am proud of him for sticking up for his little brother & I know Papa will likely "high five" him & basically tell him to wait until they are not on the school property or bus next time. I HATE BULLIES!!!!

It was a mistake in my OP when I said she told him he cant come over, she said she was GOING to tell him...oops

oh, I also want to add that Papa is very old school & although I will ask him not to "praise" this behavior, we have been together for 26 yrs & I know he will, no matter what I say :(

Lisa, it has happened to my grandson (at that age) too. He didn't beat anyone up, but he also didn't entertain the kid who pestering him. Let the school handle it - they do a great job - at least they did for my gs. If it happens again, it's time to go to the school board and get some serious action taken on the taunters of you small grandson.

Had the school been informed of the bullying previously ... especially since this is a child with special needs? How often, as the information is that it has been an ongoing problem for an extended period?

If they had, what action had been taken to cool the improper treatment of anyone, and especially this different/less-well-equipped-to-cope-on-his-own child, by the bully?

Were the children who testified to the situation of the beating asked whether there'd been a reason, and if so, whether there'd been instances of the different child having been mistreated in the past ... how often, in what fashion, etc.? And, if they weren't asked for such information, why not?

There's an opportunity here for the school to discuss the issues of being a non-interventionist bystander with all concerned ... including the parents of the bully, and other parents whose kids were on that bus.

If the bullying had been reported, and continued in spite of the school's having taken minimal intervention, including counselling bystanders, if it had been reported several times, I think that the parents of the kid who blew up have some justification to claim to the school administration that it bears a substantial portion of responsibility for having underplayed/abdicated their responsibility earlier to forestall the blow-up.

In the present circumstance, perhaps also the parents should ask the school officials what actions they'll undertake to provide care for/protect the special needs child not only full-time with individual attention during the school day during the 3 days while his brother is under suspension, but while riding the school bus, as well. If they refuse ... will they allow a parent/grandparent/friend to oversee the child during those days when the family fears that their child may be at risk?? And ... if the caregiver may be injured during that period of oversight, will they be covered by the school's/bus co.'s insurance? For sure? In writing?

If it is refused ... then they say that they'll keep the kid home ... and expect extra staff time spent on bringing him up to speed on his return to class. And check after the period to see whether it was done: if not, why not, had they promised it?

If their results in such discussion with the admin. were unsatisfactory, they might ask to petition the Board that runs the school.

In which case, had the bully been injured, and they sued, that they'd have been considering counter-suing the school: that would attract the Board's attention! And, if the staff are initially unco-operative, bringing such potential further action to their attention might cause them to reconsider their inaction.

ole joyfuelled ... who ordinarily dislikes giving schools trouble

Lisa: You are very gracious when you stated: "I disagree with a few opinions but I asked for them & I appreciate them." We all come from different places and it's always key to remember that.

The problem with high-fiving his behaviour is that it becomes acceptable and it isn't. Depending on the injuries to the bully in some jurisdictions the assault, at the age of 13, would have been an arrestable offence. I hate bullies as well but their behaviour isn't going to change because you beat him up. They will just pick on someone else. What can be changed is your own behaviour and that's how you can help your grandson

He needs to understand that he is going to encounter bullies his entire life - physical bullies, verbal bullies, emotional bullies, power-hungry bullies. We have all encountered them and your grandson is old enough to not be hitting people and learning other ways of dealing with them.

I grew up in a different time (as almost everyone reading this will have), where eventually the last resort was put your fists up. I don't recall being in trouble for that but once...and it was pretty easy to say that a six year old versus a sixteen year old...where does the fault lie ?

Similarly, I got in trouble once, being falsely accussed of destruction of school property (book). I told the teacher an older student on the bus had destroyed it and had offered to pay for it (he reacted almost involuntarily while holding the book to the name of the teacher..she was that "loved"). It so happened that one of my busmates was in my class, and spoke up that I was telling the truth. She still refused to believe me and sent me to the principal's office.

I told the story and I believe the classmate may have also came to validate my story (not sure on that...it's been thirty years ago). The principal, a reasonable man, said go back to class and tell the teacher I want to see her in my office. That's pretty much the last I heard of it, though I know Tony did pay the book that he had mangled off.

There does seem to be a resistance in many cases to school administration actually listening to a true story and believing it, even when they haven't been offered any other version of the events at all. I can see it if they had a different view expressed perhaps, but when they don't ? why not believe what they're told.

Update: I got a few more details from my DD last night. Noah had been working on a 3-D art project for a little better than a week at school, making an owl ring for his Mom. He was very excited & proud of his work and on Tuesday, it was complete & he could finally bring it home to Mom. He was showing another student the ring when the bully grabbed it & threw it out the bus window. Noah started to cry & Isaiah punched the kid in the eye (he does have a black eye). I also learned that other kids on the bus "chanted" for Isaiah to keep hitting him but he chose not to, for that I am glad. The bully is 12 yo, a yr older than Noah and a yr younger than Isaiah but is a big boy for his age.

When they got home & told the story, Noah told his Dad he was sure he knew exactly where the ring went out the window, they went for a ride & sure enough, they found it!!! He was soooo happy & excited to present it to Mom :)

Interestingly, the school is paying for a taxi to transport Isaiah back & forth for the 3 days in-school suspension, weird, huh?

As far as what the school is doing to prevent this: they have a zero tolerance policy in place and as I said before, they are really doing everything they can. From what I have been told, the bully has a history as does his Dad....sooo....no surprise the kid acts like he does.

Isaiah has written a letter to his school & the bus driver apologizing for his behavior and asking that the bully also receives a punishment. (at this point, we don't seem to know if he will or not....)

You're unlikely to find out if the other child receives punishment. It's a privacy issue. He likely is also getting punishment. My heart broke when I heard what prompted it all. Like I said before, I would've told Isaiah I totally understood why he did it. And I really stand behind that statement now. (((Noah and Isaiah)))

Awwww....thank you so much robin :)

Although fighting was never condoned when we were growing up, my Dad made sure that each and every one of us kids knew how to defend ourselves. I also raised my two the same way. There does come a time and a place when you have to step up to the plate. My DS stood up for his younger sister, and when words did not work, and the school refused to handle the situation, I told him, when Bobby punches your sister again, punch him back. He did, and Bobby never bothered either of them again. And the school backed off big time when I pointed out to them the number of times I had spoken to them about Bobby. I had each and every call to them documented, date, time, who I spoke to, and if they wanted to pursue it, then bring it on.

As for me, what my Dad taught me as a kid came in very handy when I was around 35 years old. Guy I worked with kept grabbing my neck. After days of telling him if he didn't stop, there would be consequences, he did it again. I turned around and gave him an uppercut to the jaw, literally cold cocked him. When he got back up he said "you will never do that again" I looked him right in the eye and told him "No, YOU WILL NEVER do that again." He never bothered me again.

Although violence should be the very last resort, sometimes it is the only resort that works. Bullies are basically cowards, and when someone actually stands up to them, they prove themselves to be the cowards they are. Does you GS deserve some punishment. Yes, so that he learns to understand that violence should not be the first resort, but only the very last one. I bet their bully leaves them alone from now on.

Interesting that they're having Isaiah chauffeured to school! (Does Noah get to ride, as well)?

This should not stop here.

Granted, some punishment to Isaiah is in order, (along with measured appreciation for what he did).

Has this ongoing bullying been reported earlier?

If so, their so-called "zero tolerance" should have showed some results. It appears that, if they'd taken action, it didn't interfere with the bully's activities. Plus, it seems to me that part of the "zero tolerance" situation should be instruction to others involved as to the responsibilities of bystanders.

This present situation offers some opportunities for instruction for the others on the bus, as well as parents, to have some instruction in the responsibilities of bystanders.

May I refer to my earlier post.

If the bullying had been reported, and whatever action the school took had been ineffectual, it seems to me that there's some justification in claiming that they shared some responsibility for not having the blow-up forestalled.

ole joyfuelled

Yes, the bullying had been reported numerous times. I know that the bully has also been suspended, so that makes me feel a little better about the situation.

Noah is also spending the weekend with us & Papa will talk with both boys about handling the bullying in a better manner going forward. Noah needs to learn to stick up for himself, even though it is hard for him, we believe it is important.

Thanks so much for everones thoughts & advice, I really do appreciate it. I was telling my DH about this forum last night & how awesome you all are. He laughed & said "Geez, you would think you KNOW them the way you talk", lol! I said "I DO know them, they are my virtual friends!!!

Aw Lisa! (((Lisa and Papa))) Yes, we are your friends.

Lisa, you got lots of good advice. My own thought is, granparents should stay out of any discipline. . It's between the parents, child and school officials. I would hope for a big conference with school officials, make sure they are aware of the bullying involved. i know my local schools all have anti-bullying policies. Your Grandson will grow up so fast this will soon become just a memory and a lesson learned. Grandparents, just love him. That's all.

I agree: grandparents should abstain from direct involvement.

If there is discussion with the parents, don't forget - this is their ball game. You're nothing more than an assistant to the assistant to the assistant coach (and drop in a couple more "assistant"s, if you like).

ole joyful

One Isaiah was a prophet ...

... and some refer to those people as "foretellers", in terms of foretelling future events.

Some of us might have been able to "foretell" what the eventual result might have been, here, given the presence of someone with integrity, who finally got hugely fed up with injustice being meted out to a weaker/less capable, well-equipped person.

But many of us refer to those faithful men (and women) of old as, "forth-tellers": speaking out and taking action on essential things as they ought to be dealt with, without fear or favour, heedless of consequences.

There is an opportunity here to help the children, and parents, involved in this issue to study, evaluate and understand the dynamics of situations like this, and the need for skills, then assisting to make them available, to de-escalate such happenings in future before they become as drastic as happened this time.

(((((this Isaiah ... and Noah [who didn't get wet] ... Mom and Dad ... Lisa and Papa)))))

I'm surely pleased that Noah was able to find the gift that he'd built with so much effort, skill and love.

ole joyfuelled

One big frustration is when people post and ask for advice but withhold info on what actually happened. Through the first half of this thread I grew very skeptical hearing only "relentless bullying" but nothing as to what the bullying was and how often was relentless. I was glad to see the addition of what prompted the fight. That shifted my thoughts. Still don't know what the "relentless bullying" is but informing the action that started it was appreciated.

First, of course there usually is and should be, zero-tolerance for violence on school property and a bus is school property. The older felt justified to take action based on what the other kid did. Where *I* give credit to the older brother is his maturity at saying essentially, yes I did it and I'll take the responsibility for it. THAT is what deserves the pat on the back IMO! He seems to know there are repercussions for his actions and that tells me there's been good parenting. Kudos to the parents.

I can't help but wonder if you're looking for redemption not so much for the grandson, but for yourself for pushing him so hard to look out for his little brother? Sounds like you down deep believe that you prompted this and that perhaps is accurate.

Here's an example where a person made a bad choice and a good choice. I'd compliment the good choice and avoid the bad. The other thing is I think this is getting overblown a bit. The matter is done. He made his choice. He accepted his punishment. The parents will make their decision. Why stretch it out? Let it go away at least for grandparents involvement. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Cynic & ole joyfulguy - Thank you for your thoughtful responses. The matter is indeed behind us now & we, as a family, are moving on. I cannot seem to explain well enough that my DD & SIL request & accept help raising their children. If we were ever told to "butt out", we would be surprised but would also certainly comply. And there have been instances where we disagreed on a punishment, award, etc. but ultimately, it's the parents decision, we know that & respect that. Again, we are a very close family, we live close to each other (7 miles) and my DD often asks for advice. This is how our family works best, the same as it did with my parents & grandparents.

Remeber the Waltons? lol, thats us, except we don't "quite" live together :)

lisa- I think it's wonderful when children have not only their parents, but extended family that they must answer to. My oldest son is 38, and even today, in a certain situation that came up, he realizes that he still has to answer to his two aunts and uncles. It's the way it should be! :)