I would just get a pressure washer, that would be easiest most effective way to accomplish what you are trying to do.

Is there a reason you want your outside water softened, such as for car washing? If not, I would tee off to your outside spigots upstream from your softener as too much sodium can burn your plants, not to mention the extra salt you have to purchase and carry. In any case, if your other outside spigots have adequate flow, I would inspect the valve on the first one - it may have buildup in it, or not be opening fully.

Your softener/carbon filter are also backward. Carbon filter should be first.

Iron - Dissolved or particulate?

You mention two cartridge filters by flow rate but not by size. What, specifically do you have installed there? Filter size and cartridge type/specs?

What size is your neutralizer? Type of media?

What size is your softener (tank diameter)?

Thanks for the feedback. I don't generally use the outside water for gardening, unless I've planted some new grass. Other than that, I use the water mostly for cleaning. The raw water has a high iron content and the softener is used primarily to remove the iron in the water, which is why the softened water goes to that spigot.

The well was drilled 3 years ago and here are the results that came back from the lab at the time:

Iron: 9.09 mg/L

Manganese: 0.50 mg/L

Hardness: 52 mg/L

Color: 125 CU

PH: 6.7

Turbidity: 24.0 NTU

My understanding is that most of the iron is dissolved, but that more of the iron will become particulate as the well gets older. For that reason, the salesman recommended moving an old AquaPure cartridge filter that I was using in my old well, to put it between the neutralizer and softener. His idea was to remove as much of the particulate iron as possible before hitting the softener, so the softener could work on just the dissolved iron.

The neutralizer is filled with calcite and the tank measures 42" around. Using my old high school geometry formulas, I calculate that this equates to roughly a 13.4" diameter. The purpose of the neutralizer (according to the salesman) is to neutralize the slight acidity, do a rough filtration of the water, and boost the hardness (as the softener removes iron at the same rate as it removes hardness from the water). The neutralizer backwashes every 2 days.

The cartridge filter has an AquaPure AP110-2 dirt/rust cartridge. It's rated at 5 microns and has a flow rate of 16 gpm. I change this every month or so.

The softener measures 33" around, so I guess this equates to a diameter of about 10.5". It was originally set to regenerate every 1,200 gallons, but I had them move it down to 1,000 gal., as I was getting a bit of rust towards the end of the cycle. I use salt with iron remover in it for the brine tank.

Both the neutralizer and softener have Fleck valves, and I believe the salesman said they were rated at 12 gpm.

So far, the system has worked fairly well, except that the water began to smell (kind of a sulfur smell) after a while. A plumber I know put in another old Aqua Pure filter that I had, and I've been putting carbon filters into it. I've been using an Aqua Pure AP-817 cartridge in this filter, which is a 25 micron carbon filter, rated at 10 gpm). The plumber installed this downstream of the other filters, as there was no room in the filter area. Also it seemed to me that, as the carbon filters are the most expensive, installing this last would preserve the life of the cartridge. I didn't consult with the filtration company when I did this though, so I guess my logic was faulty. It would be a simple matter to get a bigger housing for this filter, and drop in an 817-2 cartridge, which is rated at 20 gpm. I change the carbon filter about every 3 months or so. I don't notice a pressure drop when the carbon filter goes bad. Instead the water starts to smell again.

There's another outdoor spigot at the back of the house, and the pressure there isn't any better than the spigot I mentioned earlier. I was concentrating on the first spigot though, as that is the one closest to the pressure tank, and should theoretically have the lowest pressure drop.

Overall this system has worked well, but it seems to me that with 15 gpm at 68 psi coming into the house, that I shouldn't see such a big drop in pressure and flow rates. The outdoor water is my biggest concern, but it would also be nice if pressure in the shower didn't drop when the laundry machine calls for water as well.

Thanks again for your help. I'd appreciate any suggestions you might have.

The AP110-2 is rated at 8 gpm, not 16, unless you meant AP110-2C?

Your flow bottleneck may be your neutralizer. Max service flow rate for that size neutralizer should be 4.5 gpm. Now, it's possible to force water through it faster, but pH control will not be as good and, since you have sediment in your water, flow will decrease over time until the next backwash.

That is A LOT of iron and manganese to remove with a softener. Generally, you want to use a softener for only up to 3 ppm. It's not that a softener isn't capable of removing more, rather that the resin life is reduced dramatically enough to make it impractical. With the amount of iron you have, iron-remover resin is likely insufficient to ensure good iron stripping - I can provide some additional information in a separate post if you would like. At this point, let's just try to make what you have work as best it can. To that end:

Based on diameter, you could have either a 1.25 or a 1.5 cu ft softener. What is the tank height (tank only, not the valve)? If it is 44" you have a 1.25 cu ft softener, if 54" you have a 1.5 cu ft softener. Please provide the valve brand/model if you would like programming information specific to your valved. In general terms,

If you have a 1.5 cu ft softener you need the following:

• Capacity of 36,000 grains with a 15% reserve.
• Capacity in gallons will only be 627 (532 taking reserve into account).
• Regen should be set for 13.5 lb salt, or 4.5 gallons of brine. Round up if your softener won't accept decimal points.
• Hardness should be set at 58 (if you have the option to set hardness).

If you have a 1.25 cu ft softener you need the following:

• Capacity of 30,000 grains with a 15% reserve.
• Capacity in gallons will only be 522 (444 taking reserve into account).
• Regen should be set for 11.3 lb salt, or 3.8 gallons of brine. Round up if your softener won't accept decimal points.
• Hardness should be set at 58 (if you have the option to set hardness).

Alice_in_wonderland, thanks for that info. I'm not sure what the difference is between the AP110-2 and AP110-2C, but according to the tech at AquaPure, the 8 gpm listed for the 110-2 on their website is a misprint, and the true flow rate is 16 gpm. I just looked at some spare cartridges I have, and the paper attached to them says 16 gpm as well.

My softener and neutralizer are both 54" high. If the flow rate of the neutralizer is really 4.5 gpm, then that very well may be my bottleneck. I suspect that I must be pushing more water than that through it though, as I can get almost 5 gpm from my showerhead and 5.8 gpm from the utility sink in the basement. Would adding a second neutralizer (or a bigger neutralizer) help with that bottleneck?

I had 3 filtration companies come out, and the other 2 did recommend a separate iron filter. One recommended a separate filox filter and neutralizer, and the other recommended a combination of calcite and birm in the neutralizer. The guy from the company I went, with was an old-timer who said he knew the water quality in my area very well, that he thought the softener would be enough, and that I could always add an iron filter on later if I needed it. This made sense to me at the time, but I hadn't really considered the resin life. How long do you think the resin will last with the amount of iron and manganese in my water?

How would I find the valve brand & model, on my softener along with the programming information? The front of the valve simply has a time of day dial and another dial showing # of gallons left before regeneration. There's also a small sticker that says SPG on it. I've seen a technician swing this assembly open to make changes on the back, but I'm not quite sure how he did it.

I called the filtration co. once to ask if there was something I could do about those times when someone flushes a toilet in the middle of the night when the filters are backwashing (as everything is set to bypass then, the pipes fill up with bad water that needs to be flushed out in the morning). The person I spoke with suggested a double softener, as one would always be working, and the working one would be providing clean water to the softener that is regenerating. Would this be a good idea?

Aside from this, would there be any benefit to increasing the length of 1" pipe in my system?

What length pipe are you thinking about changing? Unless it's a long run with lots of elbows, you won't see much difference. Changing the 1/2" pipe branch to the spigot to 3/4" will have more impact, regardless.

Thanks. Changing everything to 1" would be a big job. I was thinking of changing to 1" just as far as the spot where the hot & cold water lines branch off.

I found the quotes from the filter company, here is what the final quote says:

(1) Service to install a 13x54 Acid Neutralizer with a high flow 2510 fleck valve. This is a two cubic ft. unit. Service flow 10-12 gpm, Peak flow 15-18 gpm.

(2) Service to install a 48,000 grain metered unit. This also is a two cubic ft. unit. Flow rates are a little better than the Neutralizer.

Looking at the first quote, they tested my PH at 6.6, Hardness at 6 gpg, Iron at 9.5 PPM and some amount of manganese. They had originally recommended a 32,000 grain system, but I asked for a bigger one as I wanted a higher flow rate with more iron removal capacity.

1. Their listed service flow rate for the neutralizer is contrary to calcite specs - you are seeing the result. Certainly the valve will handle those flow rates, just not the media.
2. Softener? A 48,000 grain unit is 1.5 cu ft, not 2.0, unless they are using some unusual resin. The resin tank you have won't successfully hold and backwash 2.0 cu ft.

Since the company is local, get their butts out there to look at it. At the very least you need to change your softener settings to the 1.5 cu ft settings I listed or you'll have problems.

Changing to 1" up the the branch-point isn't going to hurt; it just might not help much. Changing the 1st outside spigot branch to 3/" will help more.

Thanks a lot for your help. How do I know what my current settings are? Assuming the cost isn't outrageous, should I consider getting a second neutralizer and a separate iron filter (filox, greensand, birm, etc.)?

My preference would be neutralizer (2 in parallel, or one larger)==>iron removal (there are a variety of options - often the best choice is the one your local treatment folks are most familiar with, but I'll post a list of options to consider)==> GAC (you may find it unnecessary with proper iron filtration) ==> softener.

Some iron removal options:

Softener: You are already living with this method - A softener with specialty resin is capable of removing dissolved iron, up to 7 ppm (mg/L) but asking a softener to remove iron at those upper limits is really pushing it. In addition, a softener will become fouled with particulate iron over time. I don't recommend this method but, in your case only, it has the benefit of already being installed.

Oxidation/Filtration: An oxidizer such as ozone, air, or chlorine may be used to react with the iron and force it to become particulate iron that can then be removed via filtration. This will also remove most sulfur compounds. A typical setup would involve the oxidizing unit, a holding tank, then a media filter. This type of system works quite well, but takes some expertise in sizing - you would want a water treatment pro that you trust to help you with this option.

Oxidizing filtration media: This type of treatment consists of a sealed tank filled with one of several media. Water passes through and is oxidized and filtered by the media. Most will remove sulfur compounds as well as iron. These are relatively easy to operate and what I would recommend for the average homeowner. There are several different media that can be used:

1. Manganese greensand: water runs through for treatment. The
   media must be regenerated with potassium permanganate. Care must be taken with
   dealing with potassium permanganate as it readily dies organic material, such
   as your skin, a purple-brown color. Some people are quite comfortable dealing
   with the chemical; others are not.
2. Synthetic greensand: This is essentially the same as option
   (a) but consists of a coating of greensand on a silica sand core so does not
   require as much backwash flow. Service flow rate is 2 - 5 gpm/sqft. Backwash
   flow rate is 12 gpm/sqft.
3. Birm: This media acts as a catalyst to force oxidation of
   iron. While it does not need to be regenerated, it does need fairly high
   dissolved oxygen in the water. If your water does not have adequate dissolved
   oxygen (and it probably doesn't since it is well water), air injection would be
   necessary prior to the birm. Additionally, birm requires a minimum pH of 6.8.
   Service flow rate is 3.5 - 5.0 gpm per sqft. Backwash flow rate is 11 - 20 gpm,
   depending upon water temperatures and desired bed expansion. It is old tech so lots of water treatment pros know how to use it.
4. Pyrolox: an ore that oxidizes then filters the iron out. It
   does not need regeneration, but needs to be backwashed (to rinse out the iron)
   at a high rate. pH range is 6.5 - 9.0. This
   type of filter works very well, but backwash is critical. Service flow rate is
   5 gpm/sqft. Backwash is 25-30 gpm/sqft. Backwash daily.
5. Terminox: Similar to Pyrolox, but a proprietary formula . It
   does not require as much backwash flow rate and is more resistance to a low pH.
   The particulars are only available from the company that sells it. Backwash
   daily.
6. Filox: Also similar to Pyrolox. pH range 5.0 - 9.0. Backwash
   flow 12-15 gpm/sqft. Service flow 6 gpm/sqft. It must be backwashed daily. This one may be a good fit for you as it can
   take the lower pH. If you choose this
   option, your treatment order could be:
   Filox==>Neutralizer==>GAC (maybe)==>softener

Take pictures of the front of your valve and the back with the access panel removed so I can see what you've got and the settings.

Thanks. I'll take pictures and post them.

Let me ask you one more question: does the softener resin require any annual maintenance? The filtration co performs an annual maintenance service where they check the system, check the voltage on the pump, backwash the neutralizer and add calcite, etc., but to my knowledge they don't do anything special to the softener. Is this the way it should work, or should they be cleaning the resin as well?

If they are recommending a softener for that much iron they should, or at least provide you with instructions for doing so. A proper iron treatment can take quite a bit of time so it is unlikely they would be willing to do it.

The problem with iron is that as soon as it is removed from the water it slowly begins to revert to it ferric (insoluble) form. That is the reason a relatively short day override is set on a softener when water is iron-lade, to keep the ferric iron in the resin to a minimum.

With lower levels of iron, iron-remover salt is sufficient to remove iron. It may not be with such high iron. Iron-remover salt contains some phosphoric acid, which is great for dissolving ferric iron, BUT, you may need to supplement. Testing is the only way to know.

I generally recommend a Hach 5B for all residential softener owners. For you, however, I recommend the Hach HA 62A for hardness, pH, and iron. It's a little pricey, but you get to play madd chemist. If you find that your softener is bleeding hardness and/or iron, then you will need to either supplement with some Resup or Iron Out on a monthly basis, or start saving up for an iron treatment unit.

I couldn't get the best pictures, as space is tight and the flash was washing out a lot of the details.

Here is what I have from the front:

I can see that there are some settings on the 2 inside dials, but I don't know how to read them. The outside dial is set to regenerate every 1,000 gallons (was originally 1,200 but I asked them to move it down). There's also a clear piece of plastic over the 300 gallon mark on the outside knob, but I don't know what that does.

The back was even harder to photograph and I couldn't figure out how to remove it. Here's a picture of the sticker on the back at least:

I could write down what the sticker says if that would be helpful.

Does this give you enough information to tell what the settings are?

Aliceinwonderland, thanks for all of your advice. I was just wondering if you were able to tell what my current settings are from the photos I posted above.