A lot of good information. However, please be aware that the less flexible you are, the more difficult it is to modify a layout to make it more functional - especially when you cannot move the two of the three KEY items - sink and range.

Regarding the range - would you be able to re-route the vent? It goes through the ceiling (or should), not the slab. It's in a very poor position right now.

Desk - do you really need a desk? Laptops can be placed anywhere. Most people get rid of kitchen desks when they remodel b/c they're clutter magnets. I would consider creating a "Message/Command Center" near the garage entrance and get rid of both desks. It will give you much more usable counterspace. You can always place your laptop on the counter - any place on the counter!

So you can take the wall down b/w the FR and Kitchen (that's what you show in your design).

Would you consider a floor-to-ceiling reach-in pantry instead of pantry cabinets? A reach-in pantry (with walls) is much less expensive than a pantry cabinet, it generally holds more b/c you use the entire height from floor to ceiling, it has better storage b/c everything is visible and with shallow shelves nothing gets lost. To me, it's a win all around!

Would you be able to recess your refrigerator into the closet? You could get a narrower refrigerator and a standard-depth (SD refrigerators are less expensive than CD). Recessing it into the back wall by 3 or 4 inches would make it look counter-depth. You wouldn't need to take much, if any space from the closet if you recess it just into the space b/w the closet and kitchen. If you needed more space, you could convert that part of the closet into shelves for hats, gloves, etc. Maybe even turn it into a cabinet for the FR by closing the part that's shallower b/c of the refrigerator off from the closet and opening up in the FR.

Just some things to think about while I look more at your layout!

Range: Gas to induction (electric)? Induction, to many people, is better than gas. [from Benjesbride's suggestion of switching from gas.]

Let's see if I can answer some things. I know my desires plus the actual constraints make it difficult. Sorry!!

I am absolutely married to a gas range. However, I think the vent can be moved. It goes up through the ceiling and out over the window.

benjesbride - We have definitely considered removing the wall to the dining room. I doubt the wall is load bearing. My DH is not really into it because he wants to spend as little as we can. We have the money, but it really needs to go to several projects (kitchen, 2 bathrooms, fixing gas line to fireplace, painting outside). We are unlikely to be able to get enough in the near future to take care of these things. So we trying to make things as nice as we can within our constraints. I love your serving area!

buehl - I know the desk is a pain. :) I would really like an area in the kitchen. I am willing to skip it if it really doesn't work. We have really(!) planned out our space in the other rooms downstairs and I do not see how we can fit another desk on top of our boys' desk. Our family room is filled with 2 long couches to accommodate people during our parties. We are not planning on opening up to the family room anymore than it already is. You can see there is an arch between the kitchen and FR.

I'll get to more ...

buehl - The frig could be recessed a little. It would have to be in the bottom right of the kitchen because of the stairs. It could be up against that wall or max of a foot off the wall there because of the slope of the stairs. We do have a very nice shelving system in the closest that is very organized and maximizes the space in there.

So, here's one idea. It goes along the lines with what Benjesbride did, I made it into a galley. (Peninsula design later)

The big drawback is that there is no large food serving area other than b/w the sink and pantry. However, it should work for the vast majority of day-to-day use.

.

Zone Map:

A few things...

The counters on both walls are 3" deeper than normal. For the cabinets, you can either keep them "standard" depth (12" for uppers, 24" for base) and pull them out 3" from the wall --or-- hack the IKEA cabinets so they're actually 3" deeper (that's the option I show for the uppers). 3" adds a lot of storage and workspace.

For the range, pull it and the hood out 3" (build a wall b/w the top of the base cabs and the ceiling to mount the hood against). It now gives you 3" of extra space behind the range to tweak the gas hookup without disturbing the slab.

Those extra 3" plus a couple of inches in the wall behind the refrigerator now allow you to recess a standard-depth refrigerator so that it appears counter-depth - without disturbing the closet or stairs behind the kitchen wall.

There are two decent sized Prep Zones - a very large one b/w the sink and pantry and a moderate size one b/w the refrigerator and range.

The Pantry's interior is 52" wide, has 12" to 15" deep shelves (your choice), and has two 18" swing-out doors. You could also use bi-fold doors, but I think the swing outs look nicer and you have the room for the door swing.

The sink...I put in a 45" wide Kohler Stages sink (there may be other, similar out there - I just know about this one). It has a sink approx 32" wide with a drain to the left and fits in a 48" cabinet. Here's a link to it:

http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Stages%22-45-x-18-1-2-x-9-13-16-under-mount-single-bowl-with-wet-surface-area-kitchen-sink/productDetail/Undermount-Sinks/427383.htm;jsessionid=98

The 24" cabinet b/w the refrigerator and oven cabinet (with Convection MW) is landing space for the MW. It could also be used as a "Snack Center" or a place for your laptop (or both!)

No dedicated desk.

buehl - I am not opposed to a walled in pantry. I don't find the ikea pantries to be too pricey. But I am interested in what you would do! That little wall in the fr close to the kitchen has our tv and it really has to stay. Thanks!!

If you look at Layout #1, I've not only left the wall, but I've expanded it. The FR doorway is 51" wide and the DR doorway is 42" wide - they're also centered on each other.

Question: the wall near your kids' desk that separates kitchen from family... Is there any electrical in that wall? How wide is it?

If you can DIY some of the work, you will save quite a bit of labor costs. In our area, labor is at least twice materials, but your area may vary.

benjesbride - There is a light switch in the wall. There is an outlet at the T of the kitchen with fr wall for the tv. It is 23.5"

buehl - I find your layout interesting. Something different for me to think about! Thank you. I like the way both you and benjesbride put the dishwasher. It would be nice to have it out of the way. I am concerned about the loss of upper cab space right there though. I have a lot of things in those cabs! But I do see how it would help with function.

I have considered the Kohler 45. I don't think my dish drainer could go in it and still have dry dishes. The drainer would go above the dw. Nice! But at times I think I would have dirty dishes to the left in prep space. I guess the Kohler would help make it more 2 person friendly.

I like the way you have extended the cabs to help with the frig sticking out. I didn't think to extend the opening to fit that.

I am concerned about the pantry placement. I love the large slider we have there. Extending the wall in the upper left would really block it off. I am having a hard time envisioning how it would look nice. Cab pantries look nice to me. And I am not sure how a walled area would look. I am worried about the serving space in layout #1.

How does the wall with the backsplash work behind the range. Is there a corner in the backsplash where the wall sticks out for the range? I am not sure if I am getting it.

My trash definitely needs to include a bin for recycling also. I think it may need to be 24". It would be nice if I could get it under a sink, but we have an R/O system under there.

Also, the Sektion ikea uppers went to 15". No need to pull them out.

Thank you!!

We are in So Cal, so labor is pricey!! I would love to diy the cabs and backsplash.

This is a tangent, but I've been thinking a lot about dish drainers--yes, my life is very exciting.

I'm going to try going without a dishwasher in this new little kitchen of ours. I'm not a big fan of dish drainers as permanent counter fixtures. If I'm understanding correctly, ybchat67, you just keep yours in one side of your two bowl sink?

In case it's useful to anyone (I realize this is likely old news to most) here are 3 things I've gathered so far: 1) dishes dry really fast when you rinse them with super hot water, like pouring your tea kettle on them. 2) Some countries have dish draining cupboards, so the drainer is hidden and there's one less step between washing and putting away. This seems really smart. Of course, Ikea UK sells them, but not Ikea US:

3) I bought the Ikea Grundtal Dish Drainer that hangs on the wall and folds out of the way. I have low expectations for this thing; it's small:

ybchat67, are you opposed to countertop dish drainers or has it just always been your routine to put it in the sink?

Okay, now back to your regularly scheduled programming :-)

Trash pullout: 18" trash pullouts hold two bins - one for trash and one for recycling. We have one and it's great! They each hold a 13-gallon bag. Here's mine:

I like benjensbride's idea to move the range to the exterior wall so sink and range can be on the same counter. I think whether with an induction or a gas range you should try to make that happen, since it's not ideal to prep on one counter and then transfer all those across an aisle to cook or carry cold/hot water etc from counter to counter. With some kitchens, this is inevitable, but not so in your kitchen, so I think you should use this opportunity to move your range to the other counter.

Maybe you can use 15" deep upper and base cabs (I think this is the size IKEA has now), on the DR wall, void corner (I believe you'll need 3" filler on both sides) then DW and sink. Dish rack can be on the corner and (not sure about the size) toaster oven over the 15" deep cab.

I think 48" can be a good width for prep, especially if you get the big stages sink. On the other counter, I'd consider the desk at the FR end.

benjesbride - We should get coffee and talk sinks!! I have probably spent more time thinking about the sink in the kitchen than anything else. :) My current sink is a terrible double bowl. I put the drying dishes on a towel to the right of the sink in the dead space. I used to use a dish drainer but the plastic mat underneath was always gross. I do not like the sight of the drying dishes, so I was originally hoping to conceal them in a sink. But a large dish drainer does not fit in the 70/30 sinks. And I really(!!) want a large single bowl to put some dirty dishes in and be able to lay my sheet plans flat. I also have a large wok and large serving bowls. I could probably get a nice large custom sink, but it would be out of my budget. And I have searched through so many sinks online. I have found several double bowls that have a 19" and 13". Both of those sides are a little small. :( So I was thinking that the large bowl should win and I will just live with the clutter. I was thinking of have a drainboard carved out of the counter and then using the dish drainer again. Really I should have 2 dishwashers. But I would still need a small dish drainer for plastic lids, my kids' bento lunch boxes, and our water bottles. I easily fill that entire dead space with hand washed dishes everyday .. plus we run the dishwasher everyday. Many days I have to put large things like the crockpot on the stove to dry because I run out of space. I have looked at those cabs, but I have the window in front of the sink. And they seem kind of messy in a water everywhere way. Those are my sink thoughts :)

ybchat, I think it's time your sons learn how to dry dishes ;)

Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about your kitchen. I really really think you should reconsider an induction range on that exterior wall next to the sink. The function of your space hinges on that one change.

I'm including a picture of our old kitchen and our experience, just so you know the direction you might be heading.

We were newlyweds in 2006 and had never heard of gardenweb. We got sucked into the lure of a "cheap" Ikea kitchen. Haha!!! Yeah right. Did we get more storage? Yes. Did it look pretty? I think so. Was it easier or more fun to work in? NOOO!!!! For all the money we spent on engineered hardwood and silestone and honed tile and blanco sink yadda yadda, blah, blah, blah, the one thing we didn't do that would have actually *improved* the kitchen was move that darn range to the other side.

The fridge was placed in the lower right corner. Prep ended up happening at the dishwasher or between the range and the fridge. This is a corridor kitchen and a main thoroughfare for kids and dogs, so inevitably I'd have to shout a "stay out of the kitchen" when I went to move a hot pot of something from the range to the sink 5 feet behind me. That run of counter on the left? Total clutter magnet. It was an impressive length of counter, but it was a very poor allocation of precious kitchen real estate and it was rarely used for kitchen work. But oh! it would have been great as a primary prep space if that darn range would have been moved over there.

So. That's just some food for thought. You sound like a mom who works hard in the kitchen all. day. long. and I think a new kitchen should make your job easier. In my experience, the ease begins with moving your range. If it comes down to budget, you can get cheaper drawers and door fronts, put in laminate counters, skip a backsplash and just paint it (I think CRCollins just did laminate and paint and it looked great.) Soft close drawers and high cabinets will definitely be an improvement, you might be missing out on something much better :-)

AnnKH - Ha! That made me laugh. They could skip their setting and clearing the table duties and just be dryers. I also forgot to mention the ever present drying French press and teapot that service my DH's caffeine needs.

sena01 - I like your 15" cab idea. That would be a good place to store dishes. I currently have 48" of prep space (with a fruit stand taking up a corner) and I feel squished. It is especially tight when my older son comes to help. I like the functionality of the other wall.

I really don't see myself getting induction. I know it would help!! I really love to cook and it is a hobby of mine. When I am not super busy with sports in the evenings, I cook semi-gourmet meals. I like gas and was hoping to get a good deal on a Bluestar scratch and dent. I do sometimes cook with a wok. It would be nice to be able to test and induction for a few weeks.

benjesbride - See what I just wrote. :) Anyways, I appreciate your thoughts and I will think about what you have said. We have been here for 12 years, so I am used to it. I mostly shout "Watch out, I'm opening the oven." I already feel like I am compromising on the stove bit by getting a 30" range. I could really use a DO and a 6 burner cooktop. But those are out of the budget. :( I will research induction. Thanks so much!!

There was a discussion here in the last week or two about induction and the vast majority of former gas cooktop owners who have switched to induction said they will never return to gas. I don't have one myself but am sure jealous of those who do after reading all the accolades for induction. Search out that discussion. I think you'll glean good advice from it.

funkycamper - Thanks, I'll look for it.

I should add that I chose not to have a DO for space reasons also. Realistically, I don't think my kitchen is big enough for DO and a MW that isn't over the range ... and the storage and counter space I really want.

Here is the link: gas to induction thread

I agree with you on the DO issue. Do you absolutely need a microwave? We're moving ours to the laundry room, room next to kitchen, as we use it so seldom. Mainly just handy to heat a drink that's cooled or to defrost meat if I forgot to take it from the freezer. I wonder if you should consider a speed oven instead of a microwave? Then you could have a nicer hood. I don't know much about speed ovens but there have been discussions here about them you could read.

Also, about your desk. Do you really need one? You're losing good storage by having one. I know we all do things differently but I have a small filing box with lid/handles that I use for my active papers, mail to process, etc. And I happily sit with my laptop in the living room, family room, back porch sitting area, patio, wherever and no longer feel a need for a real desk. If I am working on something where I need to spread out a bit, the dining room table works fine. Just a thought.

funkycamper - A MW is essential! And I think a convection mw seems like a great compromise on a DO. I think it would get use in the summer a lot. And I would definitely use it for our parties and as a warming oven. I don't think we need the speed part of the oven. I have used an Advantium a bit at my MIL's house so I do have experience there. Plus they are more expensive!

Before I posted this thread, I knew my desk wouldn't be well received!! I get it and why it is a problem. My DH probably wants it in the kitchen more than I do. I am open to not having the desk in the kitchen if there is a great layout. However, I would love it if the desk can be incorporated. I feel like I definitely need a home base. I do think it might be able to be incorporated into an area that I would use for serving.

I appreciate your desire to have a place to sit in the kitchen and do paperwork, etc. I like having a little stool in the kitchen; especially when they're kind of closed off from the rest of the house.

If you leave a space that is the same width as a standard Ikea base cab, I would think you could add one later if you find storage is more valuable than the counter seating for one.

Yes, combo MW/Convection is a good compromise. Didn't think of that, lol. When I get my new microwave, I should do that as well. I only need more than one oven around holidays and other special events but it would sure be handy the few times I do.

I really like benjesbride's idea re desk and possible future storage. Another option that just popped into my head. How about either a drawer with a breadboard in it or an actual slide-out breadboard. You could have a stool and pull it out to type on laptop. Then push it in when done. This way you could have storage and a place to sit. You could also use the top drawer to store your laptop when not using it. You could even run a power cord into the drawer so you could plug it in.

I read about induction last night and I am just doubting that it would work for me. I do like to use the wok and induction isn't well suited for that. I haven't ruled it out.

What about these two plans? You guys got me thinking with the DW change. They are basically the same except one is with the Kohler 45 and the other a silgranit super single. I would remove the upper wall next to the DR completely and extend the lower wall a little to allow for 27" or even 30" if we could afford the RTA. The range slides down. I could switch the tall MW cab for and under the counter one to allow for more serving space.

33" sink

Kohler 45 sink - this is nice because I could have 2 faucets and effectively have cleanup on right and prep on left

The bummer of these is that the DW is taking up valuable window space. I am not sure if we could afford these structural changes ... The upper plus basket rail system means that some part may be uppers and some part a rail system with hanging wire baskets. I would put all of my fruit in those.

I just skimmed some of the posts for forgive if this has already been mentioned.

Sounds like a lot of planning for drying hand washed dishes. Why not just use your dw more? Would a better DW allow you to hand wash less? If its just a habit, break it.

Don't do the desk. I use my laptop on my kitchen island or on the couch. Two college students in the house, neither uses a desk. DH used the island or a desk that only has space for the keyboard so not really a desk. We have a beautiful large desk in our office and no one sits there.

I think a Stages sink would work well for you. However, I really think for good function you absolutely need to move the cooktop to the same wall as the sink. And rethink the wasted space for the desk. It will probably just end up being a clutter collector. Sounds like I'd fit in well with Debrak's family. I haven't sat at a desk since I ditched the desktop for a laptop.

Proceeding with the gas range in it's present location, I came up with this:

1) Being mindful of Marcolo's Ice.Water.Stone.Fire. if you cannot place the range next to the sink, I believe the refrigerator should at least be next to the sink.

2) I thought it better to have counter/serving next to the dining room.

3) In the drawing above, I changed the doorway framing on each end to be the same.

4) Upthread, buehl suggested a built-in, reach-in pantry. If someone is hired to change the doorways it should be easy and possibly cheaper to frame in a pantry; 2 Ikea Sektion Haggeby (the cheapest fronts sold) 90x24 high cabinets in the most basic shelf-only config costs $565.98. Yikes.

You could add outlets for small appliances and/or baskets for your produce:

5) A small free-standing desk for you could be placed in front of the slider window on the (new) wall rather than have a desk in the kitchen proper.

6) I don't think you need to expand into the dining room for dish storage. Since you entertain, the space in your DR is precious too. Your dishes could be to the left of the sink, across from the sink at the end cabinet near the dining room, or some folks put all glassware, dishes and utensils in base cabinets (which you might be able to fit next to the dishwasher.)

I think that's all I've got for now :-)

The Nester at the blog, Nesting Place actually wrote a post about how moving all her dishes and glassware to the base cabinet next to the DW was the one kitchen tweak that changed her attitude.

http://www.thenester.com/2014/03/the-one-kitchen-tweak-that-changed-my-attitude.html

I am definitely liking the dishwasher to the right of the sink. If I do that, I do think there would need to be another cab to the right of the dishwasher to store the dishes. I also think it would be great if we could remove the wall to the dining room except the part that runs along the cabs in the lower right. It would really help to tie the dining room and kitchen together especially since this isn't an eat-in kitchen.

I am still letting all of the other great ideas settle. My original plan had a peninsula in the upper left. Buehl - I think you said you had ideas for a peninsula. I would love to see any ideas. A peninsula would be great because it would give my kids another place to eat snacks and do homework. It would be great as a serving place. The cons of course are a reduction in walking space and constriction. Having those corners also really reduces the amount of long counterspace or other useful places to put things along the wall. Do you think I should skip a peninsula? Does anyone have ideas for one?

I see that a peninsula could be on either side. If it is near the dining room it might constrict it too much. If it is on the family room side it would really reduce the counterspace. That's why I had it extending into the family room as much as I thought was feasible. I should add that because we live in SoCal and our house is small, most people eat outside for our large parties (except Thanksgiving and Xmas). So it is better if the serving area is on the left side of the kitchen. However, the left side of the kitchen plus the right side of the family room is where many people stand during our parties.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if any of you had some great ideas (or not) for a peninsula before I head down the road of a straight galley kitchen. You guys have been so helpful, thanks!!

I heartily concur with benjesbride about having the range on the same side as the sink. Not having it on the same side was the worst of several mistakes I made. It looked good on the opposite wall plan but was nothing but a mess carrying hot slopping food from one side of the room to the other. And it was in the pathway through the kitchen. And two certified KD tried to persuade me to keep it on that side of the wall because it looked good!

Your desk - you do not need anywhere near the full depth underneath unless you are quite long-legged and find your knees needing an unusually deep space. Put 14" open shelves under there for additional storage.

Have you gotten a quote to plumb gas to that outside wall?

I don't think this investment is going to meet all of your criteria unless you put that range on the exterior wall.

12crumbles - good idea about the shelves underneath the desk. I don't have really long legs.

benjesbride - I have not had a chance to get a plumbing quote. The fireplace that is on the left wall in the family room needs a new gas line brought to it. Very recent quotes for that are 2-3k. They would then have to trench our large patio to get to the kitchen. We used to have a fireplace on the right living room wall. There is probably gas somewhere near there. It would have to be trenched around the house. I am guessing 2-3k based on our other estimates to bring it around the outside. I do not know the cost of ripping up the tile, replacing tile, and routing the gas line through a trench in our slab in the kitchen. I will need to check into that. I promise I haven't ruled it out.

I have lived in this kitchen for 12 years. I do have to say that the location of the stove across the aisle isn't on my top 10 of problems with this kitchen and what I am looking for.