As was mentioned, this started on the curmudgeons thread, which if you had bothered to notice was made up of pet peeve type things that make you grumpy.

Most posts were mini rants on inconsiderate people who don't return their carts at the supermarket, people who leave those carts blocking cars in the parking lot, people who park the wrong way in the supermarket, ya know, that kind of thing. Inconsiderate ACTIONS that irk us. And can, and do, inconvenience us. Thoughtlessness. Selfishness. ACTIONS or BEHAVIOR.

But, what was it that irked Faron, to no end? Why... inconsiderate women who wear yoga pants that he deems unattractive. And OMG they are fat and unattractive. Worse, fat and over 50. Worse still, fat and 60'ish.

Just the sight of them offends his sensibilities.

He dug a hole and some of the posters here even helped with the shoveling. And then insisted they were building sandcastles instead of holes.

Others, more thoughtful posters, tried to give him a helping hand, some even offered a ladder out of his hole. Gracefully and tactfully offered. More than once people gave him an "out".

He was not only oblivious to the kindness and graciousness in keeping with the spirit of the offer, he was downright resentful. He dug in his heels. And then he doubled down.

enmc, you really crossed a line by taking another member's physical info they posted and using that to calculate their weight range, pronounce they're 54 pounds over that range or "just 30 pounds shy of a whopping 300 pounds" and deeming them to be of Good Year Blimp proportions. You can label it as falling under 'in fairness' or 'turnabout is fair play' but the reality is you've called out a specific member and insulted their individual physical appearance. Something Faron hasn't done to any other member of GW, now or in the past. Taking this to such a new low is nothing to feel smug about.

Olychick, you know that was not what I said at all.

I have lots of old NYers which I pick up at random and start to read. The issue I happened to pick up included an article about Cambridge classicist Mary Beard, OBE, who, because of her role hosting a BBC documentary, became a target for misogynistic trolls. (Below is her talk, "Oh Do Shut Up Dear!") A tv critic said, "Beard coos over corpses' teeth without apparently noticing she is wearing them...Her hair is a disaster, the outfit an embarrassment....She should be kept away from cameras altogether." One post superimposed female genitalia over a picture of her face...another threatened to cut off her head and rape it...another was a bomb threat which she reported to the police. Rather than ignore them, her response has been to air the comments, both to embarrass the offenders and to educate that misogyny is still alive and well in Western culture. Interestingly a number of the trolls have apologized and she has developed cordial relations with them.

Her take on the TV critic: He had not enjoyed a University education and so was obliged to resort to insult as a substitute for well-reasoned argument.

Interesting speech, Annie. Ironically, though, it's women here trying to shut up a man. But at least they're not saying they want to cut his tongue out!

Now the question that still sticks in my mind, and it is addressed to Faron: What did you expect to accomplish with your post? Just curious.

Why do we post on the conversation side? To ask opinions, give opinions, share ideas, a place to vent, to socialize, waste some time between appointments……..? In the scheme of things then, where does this Fashion Police thread fit in?

This is just my impression of Faron's OP but I think he really wanted to be educated as to why people, men and women as indicated in his OP, wear what they do. There is nothing wrong with that as a topic. Quite frankly I often wonder as well, but it isn't any of my business. I look sideways and roll my eyes at the things that some people wear but I keep in mind I don't know where they are coming from or going to in their day. I'm sure that people do the same thing with what I wear.

Yes, calling people names isn't nice but unfortunately even in literature it happens. It's descriptive and can get the point across. You don't want to know the names that I call men who, when they bend over, show their cracks and unfortunately i see the same thing in women. If one doesn't want to wear things that fit that's fine, but that person will be talked about, by both men and women. That is human nature.

I'm not sure where and when this thread derailed but it's too bad. It's a conversation. nothing more and nothing less. I took offense at nothing that was said and if I took offense at everything I read I'd be in a state of constant angst.

As someone experiencing hot flashes for the first time in life, I feel I may turn into the inappropriately dressed woman in public. Understanding is coming in waves...

Haha, Bumble! I highly recommend having a partner with Reynauds. Nothing like an ice cold hand on the back of your neck when you're starting to melt!

Layers and buttons and 3/4 length sleeves were my friends.

This horse smells beyond dead. Everyone has had more than ample opportunity to weigh in and share their thoughts and opinions-- across two threads. I don't think people are misunderstanding each other-- they disagree with each other. At some point you have to acknowledge that there are other perspectives and opinions.. and then move on (hopefully without hurt feelings).

I agree that the horse is probably beyond help, but I feel I must put an oxygen mask on the poor animal and and spray a little Febreze on him long enough to say this.

The thing for me personally has nothing to do with whether or not certain body types should wear certain clothes.

In the curmudgeon thread, Faron said:

"What irks ME is....WHY do Women, even if they're SIXTY or more, "big" or small...have to wear "Yoga pants"?!??!?! Gawd I hate that!!

The college-age cuties look fantastic normally, unless they're linebacker size. But, retirement-age Gals??!?!?!?! Make it stop!!!! EEeeewww...."

Really? Seriously? All of you defenders aren't completely icked out by that? Can you at least see how these words might bother someone else? I pity this man if he ever talks like that to my "college-age cutie." Reading his comments certainly gives me a feeling of "EEeeewww...."

Regardless of whether he is totally clueless or purposely inflammatory, those comments are not okay.

At many corporations, people saying the exact things that he said would be sent to Sensitivity Training. (Yes, I realize this is not a workplace and that he has every right to use whatever language he wishes. However, it can't hurt for any man or woman to learn to be more sensitive of others.)

The words we choose to use are far more important than the clothes we choose to wear.

I'll weigh in once. Faron, I love you, but I agree that when you said, ""What irks ME is....WHY do Women, even if they're SIXTY or more, "big" or small...have to wear "Yoga pants"?!??!?! Gawd I hate that!!", was very offensive.

Do you know what 60 looks like these days? Would you hate to see Christie Brinkley in yoga pants? She's 60. :)

I wasn't offended in the least, and I think there is a clear overreaction to what Faron said.

To answer your question directly, Faron: women wear yoga pants because they're comfortable. Period. That is the reason.

Those implying that his "college-age cutie" comment had some lecherous or sexual predator tone to it, IMO, are imposing on HIS words a disgusting implication he did not mean in the least. It is news to you that men look at young women???? That is more surprising than the fact that they do!

pull it back a bit. I don't think you're reading his comments correctly at all, or some aren't fans of satire and caricature to make points.

I have to say I am just astonished at the reaction here and how Faron is being treated. While there are misogynistic males that for some reason hang on GW with a group of (primarily) females, getting a free pass digging into women, Faron has never once struck me that way. Even with this thread. On the contrary, he seems to love women!

I think maybe some of the most oppositional posts are by people who are new and not familiar with his personality.

To me he has a kinda goofy, light hearted, expressive style of writing. I don't think there is any intent WHATSOEVER to be offensive or to denigrate women. I agree that he is looking for answers to the whole spandex thing. Which, imo, is borderline obscene and questionable attire in public - by anyone!

I do think we have been oversaturated in spandex, so it doesn't surprise me to see a post turn up on it. Everything is loud, in your face. Noise, colors, lights, people provocatively donned in second skins in public....or offendedness & censorship!

Honestly, I read on the conversations side occassionally and am FREQUENTLY horrified at the opinions I read. Truly. I don't see feelings on spandex as any different. There is no way to accommodate everyone's sore spots. People really need to stop censoring others so much, and expecting to be accommodated for their every sensitivity or differences of opinion.

I agree, snookums. I think Faron's original intent, as he stated, was simply to dish about people's fashion choices in a light-hearted way. Certainly not to offend anyone. And I have found some of the replies to him far more offensive than anything he's posted.

If we were on GW, we'd be reaching the 150 post max, which was probably a good thing.

Thank-you annie for saying what you did. (You are my very first "like")

I appreciate that Faron did not intend to be offensive, but I do think he was offensive, to both the young women he is admiring and the other distaff subsets he does not.

I support those who have spoken out against the kind of comments Faron has made ( "ewww", yourself ) in such an off-handed way. I agree that it is demeaning. And I don't think the posters who are calling him out for it are being overly sensitive. That is my take. I appreciate others may differ. But we don't even say ewww about people's decor choices here.

I think the post is more clueless than anything else. Would you come here to post and rail against consumerism? Would you post against SAHMs? Would you post against Americans? Know your audience.

I read more than I have ever posted, having far less design knowledge than the average person here and no major projects. So I may be wrong about this, but the Faron posts I see are lightly trafficked and have to do with sports and weather. They seem out of place, frankly, as does this one.

It is hard for me to get terribly angry at someone whose intentions were civil, even if in my opinion they are misguided and if, in my opinion the remarks are telling. What we have here is a misdemeanor. The only reason I am posting is not because I think Faron needs any more feedback, or that I have desire to upbraid him, but because I want to support those posters who were upset by this incident and not leave it implied that silence equates to agreement.

very well said, Kitschy. I agree 100%.
I do think that most of us are clear on the others' opinions.. I also don't see that any minds are likely to be changed.
I'd love to just see the thread die down so that emotions can settle. Repeating or defending a position over and over isn't going to narrow the divide.

"But we don't even say ewww about people's decor choices here.

I think the post is more clueless than anything else. Would you come here to post and rail against consumerism? Would you post against SAHMs? Would you post against Americans? Know your audience."

Umm, yes people do, to all of the above. And a whole lot more.

I don't think anyone here has the right or authority to be telling people to either cease a conversation or that their topics/interests are any more unwelcome or irrelevant than another's. That would close down a whole lot of threads. If you, yourself, are done with the subject, then stop reading.

I missed it. Who told people to shut up? Funkyart expressed the desire that the whole thing die down. That's different.

I don't think anyone here has the right or authority to be telling people to either cease a conversation or that their topics/interests are any more unwelcome or relevant than another's.

What if someone posted with decidedly racist views? Just how big should the GW umbrella be?

I'm truly in awe of the many articulate posters who chose to advocate for women. I think that expressing disapproval when women are denigrated (unintentionally or otherwise) is one way to effect change, and I am thankful for those who did just that.

I was composing a commentary last night when this site went "missing"?!
I wondered for a few seconds if I "broke" the internet!?
(gawd I hate that phrase!!!!)

Yes, this thread was kind of interesting!

I stressed MANY times, that I'm talking about ONLY THE CLOTHES.
I WISH TO HELL there were Emogee's/similiar here, so I could've surrounded my "Eeeeewww" comment with 100 or so "this-is-VERY-tongue-n-cheek/sarcasm-ONLY" images!!!

I DO feel bad that some here took me SO literally, & then flew off the handle.
>>> My SINCEREST apologies to those who took my comments literally. <<<

I DID make fun of Men's goofy fashion-choices too!
Yes, I've mentioned my height/weight a few times over the years here.
(Again...6'3", 270! Normal suit-coat size has been a 48L for some time now. Dress-shirts need to be Tall, with 17-17&1/2 neck. Sleeve-length 34/35 if L/S. Polo-type shirts & t-shirts have to be 2XT)
* In 2007, I was ~~320lbs b4 my 1st A-fib incident!
* I wouldn't wear a Speedo because I'd look ridiculous in it!
* Right now....I'm ROCKIN to my fave Cinderella tune, "The Last Mile"!!!!!

In conclusion, and I mentioned this once(???), when I first started posting here, I had no idea, and didn't care, how many Women & Men there were!!

I like talking with THE PEOPLE here.
I don't care if you're "Hot" or not!!
This place means a lot to me....just like EVERY PERSON here does! :-)
I SOMETIMES feel like I'm not welcome, because I'm the "rare Male".

THAT is what makes me sad.

Faron

"What if someone posted with decidedly racist views? Just how big should the GW umbrella be?"

You are casting your net too wide. In context, I am referring to the suggestions for this conversation to drop. You know, some opposing views disrupting the balance. And referring to the dig that sports and weather posts by Faron are somehow unwelcome on a public forum.

"stressed MANY times, that I'm talking about ONLY THE CLOTHES."

No. You were talking about the people in the clothes. Had you said "Yoga pants are ugly. Why does anyone wear them?" that would have been about the clothes. But that's not what you said.

Thanks for the clarification, snookums. I did misunderstand you.

I like Faron. I like his enthusiasm for his Bison (whoever they are), and his comments on different things.

I no longer mention that I am a SAHM because of the backlash on this forum. I usually try to stay under the radar, it is so much safer.

Roses-
"I" should know what "I" was talking about!

Did you REALLY read what I said in my most recent post?
Doesn't seem like it, because I also stated that I wished there were Emogee-choices. Then I could've VISUALLY represented some of my comments as "Tongue-in-cheek", and NOT meant to be interpreted LITERALLY!

Are you one of those people who are LOOKING FOR something to get offended by?
Do you REALLY think I started a thread like this, just so I could be MEAN?!

Faron

"I'm truly in awe of the many articulate posters who chose to advocate for women. I think that expressing disapproval when women are denigrated (unintentionally or otherwise) is one way to effect change, and I am thankful for those who did just that."

I am female, and so, am for women. If I thought the crux of Faron's posts were woman-hating statements or sentiments, I wouldn't like or defend him. I've seen a good number of his posts, however, and read this one in context with his good-natured, fun loving, inquisitive personality. His generosity of spirit is evident in his most recent post.

Honestly, there are plenty of posts and nasty attitudes about women and consumers around here to take issue with, and rarely does anyone stand out from the crowd to stand up to those. And when they do, they are more often chastised and beaten down than supported. Spandex issues somehow makes the cut.

Faron, there are other males who post here. No one is objecting to you or other men posting here. We (who are objecting) are objecting to you writing hateful things about women's bodies, the choices they make in clothing, older women, and admittedly leering at younger women your daughter's age. And just like it wouldn't be funny to post something tongue in cheek about a disabled person, racism, etc., many of us don't find it funny for you to disparage women. Some women are defending you, which I find curious, but not surprising.

I thought I was finished with posting on this thread and now I am. But at long as I'm here: Annie, my apologies...you wrote: "Olychick, you know that was not what I said at all." I must have misread this from your earlier post about men dressing: "However, he still was facing constraints of wearing a suit every day."

My thanks to all the articulate women who have posted their thoughts here and clearly have the backs of other women, whether our sisters are fat, old, clueless, or simple free of the constraints of dominant culture's judgements.

Hi Oly!

Siiiiiighhhhh....

I THOUGHT I was being clear.
One last time....I wasn't being hateful TO >>> ANY <<< PERSON.
ONLY certain clothing types...on certain body-types.

Yes...it IS that simple!

Faron

'Hateful' is an attitude or intent. I just don't see that emotion in his posts or personality.

I get it Faron. Not one person, just a whole gender!

I took great care Oly, to "send up" a lot of MEN'S goofy fashion-gaffes too! :-)
And NO...not just ONE gender.
BOTH of them!!

Faron

For whatever it is worth.. I did not ask or demand that the conversation stop. How in the hell could I even DO that?? I don't for a second want to suggest someone shouldn't have the opportunity to speak their mind.

At this point, I do wish it would die-- people on all stops of the continuum are planted firmly in their positions. In the attempt to defend a position, viewpoint or oneself, harsh things are being said .. some things I doubt would be said under less charged conditions. People's feelings are getting hurt.. and to what end?

I fear that online friendships and camaraderie will be the price... and there will be no win as the prize.

All that said, I apologize if someone felt that I was quieting them or taking away their freedom to express themselves. It was not my intention at all.

"I fear that online friendships and camaraderie will be the price... and there will be no win as the prize."

Well what about Faron being roasted on the fire? Of course that's no matter since it's the other 'side'.

"And referring to the dig that sports and weather posts by Faron are somehow unwelcome on a public forum." - Snookums

Just to clarify, I said they "seem out of place", not that they were "unwelcome" for any reason.

My intent was not to "dig", Snookums.

My intent by the comment was actually to try to downplay this Fashion Police post, by mentioning that I saw it as a pattern of posting things that are a little bit out of place. My characterization of the post as merely, perhaps, "out of place" is intended to be gentle and even-handed, and intended to recognize that I understand Faron doesn't want to be hateful.

I *think* I am done explaining my position now. I will try to be quiet here on out because I agree with Funky!

There is no absolute provable right or wrong here, we have all said our piece. Now it is time for peace.

Faron, how are those Bison doing? What are Bison, anyway? : )

Snookums, I didnt single out a person or side of the argument.. in fact, I went to great lengths to indicate that we are ALL firm in our positions.. across the full continuum of the argument. Ugly things have been said on both sides of the argument.. feelings have been hurt across the board. I don't agree with all that has been said.. but I don't see that anything is going to be gained by continuing to beat the horse and each other.

When a discussion is civil, we can disagree with someone on one topic and then carry on with them in discussions on other topics.. when it turns the corner, that's less likely the case.

If you wish to continue, have at it.. but please do not misrepresent me or my intentions.

For the greater good here, I move to "Retire" this thread.

It took some surprising turns, which I admit kinda "blind-sided" me!
I KNEW it would be somewhat controversial, but I wasn't prepared for some of the accusations. Oh well...I'm a Big Boy. I harbor no "ill will" to anyone here.
I'd LIKE to consider all of you my friends, Male OR Female...I don't care!

Here's what I'd like to happen here....

cute hug....

A cute little make-up!

Sincerely,
Faron

Funkyart, I'm not misrepresenting your intentions. You said and described several times how you felt the conversation should be over. It sure sounds like a plea from you to the group to convince people they should stop the discussion. I don't know how you can say otherwise. You already got to have your say, of course.

I read a lot of non-faron stuff above, since forgotten at this point, that I did not appreciate or agree with. Those posts annoyed me. Faron did not. Those type commentaries are endless here and I am FREQUENTLY horrified by opinions and statements I read. And I see you had no problem respondIng to the things you disagreed with. You took the bull by the horns.

I decided to respond to the personal attacks towards Faron, as I'd heard about enough of what I would call an over-reaction and mis-characterization by some posters. Although I can understand them not liking some of his comments. I, too, posted so as not for "it to be implied that silence equates to agreement (kitschy)." I just don't perceive him or his intent that way. Not all of us women feel as they do.

Faron and his comments never bothered me. And I will never unilaterally or unequivocally have the backs of other women and I only have three sisters. And I am related to them by blood. So, sounds like I'm not one of you. Oh well. I can live with that.

Blfenton, I'm not sure to whom you're addressing your most recent post, I hope it wasn't to me. When I thanked other posters for advocating for women, it was to make clear that it wasn't about being against Faron.

Well, I'm done with this thread. My service to the Secret Unshaven Feminist Army here is done. Back to my deep cover as a SAHM in cute shoes;)

Well, gotta say, I think the comment about some "Secret Unshaven Feminist Army" is, by far, the most sexist and offensive comment on this thread. No offense, riosa. I suspect you meant it to be tongue in cheek. But that comment does perpetuate a negative stereotype - from both sides: that feminists are ugly, unshaven militants… and that attractive, "feminine", well-groomed women can't be feminists.

I'm taking that as a sarcastic reference to the negative stereotypes of strong women's libbers (I'm guessing a primarily male response, in protest to the women's movement).

And please don't include my opinions on fashion police jokes on fashion sense here* (which included the guys) in that sentiment. I am not against standing up for women, and do so myself.

(*qualifier: by someone I perceive as a non-mysogynistic male ).

No, riosamba it wasn't to you.

And now I'm done. Have a good day all, in your chosen attire of the day. For me, it will be hiking gear as I'm going for a hike with my niece and then it will be black jeans for the grocery shopping.

Just to add my 2 cents (because I can) : seems like there a number of folks who might suffer from a limited imagination when it comes to reading (or hearing) what other people opine. It's called leaping to conclusions (or rushing to judgement?) & I guess that's a patronising way to express it, but there it is.

After all, this is a forum, which means that everybody has a right to have their say. However that also means expect to see any & all kinds of responses, because everybody has a right to have their say...

I've been out of town at a conference, where I've had plenty of opportunity to observe people's dress and what looks good and not so good on certain body types. Some people just have the ability to look really well put together regardless of their age or size. OTOH, there were people with rockin' bodies, some who have to be sure to wear everything tight to show it off. I don't care for that either. This one lady with fabulous arms was only wearing Athleta dresses from what they looked like to me.

I do think it's easier for men than for women. Men's clothes are also more standard sizing, but I've known big and tall men who looked great.

Saw a comedy show last night where the classic comedian George Wallace joked: "Ladies, animal prints are great, but if you are larger than the the animal it represents, maybe it's not for you."

Also best to assume the best before assuming the worst.

As a person who regarded Joan Rivers as a vulgar and obnoxious person---and took some heat for saying so on her obit thread here----I have to say that Faron's or any other GWer's opinions are at least confined to a limited audience and they are not making a living dissing others' choices or appearance.

I'm willing to chalk this up to CMS and move on.