I'd love to see what the experts say. You home looks so interesting! And I love galley kitchens.

My first thought is to leave the range and sink, and put the fridge, a pantry and maybe a microwave with a coffee counter the opposite wall. Similar to the pick below?

To open up the window, you could skip enclosed upper cabinets and put a 36"-42"ish wide, shallow, wall cabinet across from the bathroom door if you feel you need more storage.

Is there a view out of the kitchen window? I'm wondering if there is any clever way to get a small counter height eat-in area over there. This kitchen looks huge to me.

Also, have you seen Daniel's kitchen update at his Kingston house on manhattan-nest.com? His house reminds me A LOT of yours and you may find great inspiration there. Manhattan Nest Kitchen Reveal

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What is the 60 opening by that door? If you go with the IKEA layout, and the fridge is counter-depth, I'd switch the fridge & the pantry so you have some refrigerator landing space - a place to fill your juice glass, etc. Can you post a layout of the entire floor?

I agree with Carrie B. If you can switch them, do it. If you can't and if that pantry is 24" wide (the writing is hard for me to read), I don't think it's too-too big of a deal to have the pantry in-between fridge and counters. They're just a pivot apart, not steps. And as much as I love Marcolo's IWSF advice, I really think it's ISWSF as I never go from fridge directly into sink, there's always a counter stop in there, too. So I think you'll be fine with your layout.

Here's another alternative if you can move the plumbing a little to the DR side (I assume there's no window above the sink).

In this arrangement all your plates/glasses will be closer to the DR. The short counter can be your snack/tea/coffee zone can house your MW or any other smalll appliances you have.

You can also consider a slender radiator.

This idea might not even be possible. If you could show us the floor plan of the rooms around the kitchen that would help. My thought was if possible I would rather not have the bathroom door in the kitchen. But that might be the main bath, so might have to stay. However, if you had another bath or powder room available, could you close off that bathroom door and tuck the fridge in that hole. Then making the bathroom enter from that bedroom behind the kitchen. Sorry just a wild thought.

I agree with Sophie re moving the fridge across the aisle, then moving the range down to gain the most prep space possible. The ideal prep space is between the sink and range. Also, move your DW to the other side of the sink - the DW has no plumbing of its own and just piggybacks off the sink plumbing with a few plastic flexible tubes that are above the floor, so there's no actual plumbing work to move it to the other side.

I would also strongly recommend increasing the depth of your counters on the prep wall by 4" or 6". You can do this inexpensively by building a 2x4 or 2x6 frame behind your cabinetry, installing the cabinets against that, and running the counters over both. Or, you can do it more expensively by ordering custom depth cabinets. The extra depth provides you with so much more room to work (and pleasure IN working), you wouldn't believe it. It's almost like having an island or peninsula.

Is there a lot of traffic through your kitchen (to the deck and/or bedrooms?) If so, I'd be really hesitant to move your range across from the sink - you'll constantly have to watch your steps to make sure you're not about to scorch someone with a pot of boiling pasta water. A lot of galleys do put the sink and stove opposite one another (most of my Houzz ideabooks at least) but since you have a ton of length and at least some possibility of thru traffic, it's worth thinking through the alternatives.

We have a narrow galley (about 91" depth) and we opted to put the sink and range on the exterior side, with the refrigerator recessed into the opposite wall. That plus opening a wall on one (narrow) end makes the room feel double in size, at least.

argh, i had just typed out responses to all these and then accidentally hit the back browser and lost everything. Next time I'll type in a doc and paste in.

Thanks all for your feedback, I will retype answers and responses (and more questions) shortly! Should have clarified, this is an ap't so a plan of the floor would be a plan of the whole place. I will try to take measurements of at least the adjoining rooms and post some pitiful pics of my pitiful drawings.

Ok, finally getting around to retyping this.

Thanks all for your input; you all are awesome!

So, everyone is agreement that we should move the fridge
across the aisle and leave the range with the sink. Here’s my issue:

@rebunky – you raise the possibility of changing the
entrance to the bath. I’d love to do
that, but not opening it to the bedroom (which is what it probably was originally-
a maid’s bathroom in the back near the kitchen, as in many apartments of this
vintage). This would make it very hard
to use as a guest bath. Instead, I’d
like to open it to the dining room. But
I’m worried it will make the project more complicated and costly. I’ll see.

In the meantime, if we DON’T do that, moving the fridge
across the aisle creates a couple issues.
Aesthetically: I don’t have a wall to put it against and “hide” it. So it will be need to be “hidden” by a pantry
or large panel, which doesn’t seem ideal.

@benjesbridge, your pic shows a possibility, but note it
DOES have a wall against the pantry, which we wouldn’t have – it would be
exposed on the side. Functionally: there’s
no cutout currently, so we’d have do counterdepth fridge or move the wall
back. Also, re: layout, putting the
fridge towards the dining room means the range is in between it and the sink
(Marcolo will chastise me! ;-); putting it towards the back deck means you have
to cross the cooking area to get to it from the rest of the apartment.

Thanks for the suggestion about opening up the window, but
not sure I understand your suggestion completely – can you elaborate? Skip enclosed wall cabinets along the whole
wall? Put the wide cabinets where
exactly?

Thanks also for the link to Daniel’s kitchen – would love
more suggestions for kitchens that match our layout especially (his has some
similarities but isn’t really the same general type of space).

@Carrie B – this is a great point about landing. I’ll have to weigh using the existing cutout
vs. functionality here. The 60” opening
is doors to the back bedroom.

@sena01, No window above the sink – that’s an interior
wall. Only window is at the back. Not sure I can move the sink very far
(contractor says can’t move more than 30” without considerable expense), but
your point about having the plates close to the dining room is so valuable – I
hadn’t thought of this at all and is now a prime concern! I like your layout – but worried that since I
can’t move the sink much, I won’t be able to get enough counter space between
sink and stove, where we most need it.

@tracie_erin, when you say move the DW, do you mean move
from its existing position or the position in the IKEA layout? My thought I want it on the opposite side
(from the sink) of the range, wherever that ends up being.

RE: increasing counterdepth, what do you think is the value
of that vs. width of the aisle? Current
aisle is slightly less than 44”. Would
you really bump up the counter 4 inches and lose those 4” in the aisle?

@Sophie Wheeler, where do you suggest putting the
fridge? Next to which doorway?

Hope to have a plan of the DR, bath, and back br up soon!

Sorry that I'm not very good at describing my thoughts. However, I don't think they break the Marcolo rule--I could be wrong. I just did a quick search for inspiration photos for you:

If this were your kitchen, tall wall cabinets would be on your left as you enter kitchen (like sena has in the drawing above. On the opposite wall, you'd have a fridge, pantry and maybe a microwave/coffee station, like so:

If you can locate and give the dimensions for where the existing utilities are, it might help folks determine how far apart you can skooch your range and sink without having the expense of moving plumbing or electrical. In our previous house, we were able to move our range 12 inches without having to move utilities, saving some $$.

Definitely don't shrink your aisle width - 44" is already a bit tight for a kitchen that is also a passageway to other parts of the apartment. 48" is the recommended minimum for 2 people to be able to pass one another (or for someone to walk through the kitchen without disturbing the person who is cooking or cleaning.) Remember that even a CD refrigerator stick out a few inches past regular-depth cabinets and counters, so depending on where you situate your fridge, you're already looking at an aisle more narrow than 44". People definitely fudge these numbers, but I think it's more viable in a larger kitchen where there are multiple traffic patterns. In our galley kitchen, we went from an 36" to 48" aisle and it's totally life-changing.

I know you've thought this through, but as a "consumer", I'd much rather have guests going into the bedroom to access the bathroom than having a bathroom door that opens into the dining room - in fact, when we were condo shopping, we rejected a few that had the powder room in the "wrong" location (they should always open into a "private" area IMHO).

I am with sjhockeyfan that I would rather my guests go through a bedroom to use a bathroom, then a door directly off the kitchen or dining room. I realize none of the three choices are ideal.

1) enter through bedroom 2) enter through kitchen or 3) enter through dining room.

Personally, I would pick # 1 no question. I apologize for being to graffic here, but sometimes nature calls. When ya gotta go - you gotta go. Think of the noises. Worse, think of the smells! Talk about ruining your appetite for that yummy turkey dinner mixed with the smell of pie ala poo. Sorry, I don't mean to make fun of the situation. I am sincerely trying to help you think of real life situations that could happen.

It would open up your kitchen to have a little more space to work with too. Just food for thought? :)

Rebunky - your comments are amusing. I'd be more worried, though, about embarrassing my guests... not to mention... embarrassing me!

Do you have a washer/dryer set up to the right of the sink currently? Not sure from photo.

The 60" opening to bedroom - french doors? Are you set on keeping that size opening?

You all are funny. But you're right - I'm not thrilled with any of the bathroom entrance options. How do the rest of you vote? Maybe I should set up a poll!

Clueless, yes. WD currently in kitchen. Plan is to move them to a closet in the back bedroom against the plumbing for the bath.

Yes, French doors to back bedroom. Hadn't planned on changing it (just putting in curtains).

It would really be helpful to see a layout of the whole place and see how all these rooms relate to each other.

Do you have room to spare from the DR side to create a small hall for the bathroom entry?

I was thinking along the same lines as sena01, but was thinking you could put a 24" wall at the end of the 112" run as is and create a small entry alcove into the bathroom?

Or with frig across aisle:

Ok. I've done my best to measure and draw up the floor
plan, with special attention to the area around the kitchen. Please don't
laugh! Obviously I know zilch about measuring or drawing plans. Let
me know what I can do to help you all give input.

As
you can hopefully see, the bath isn't DIRECTLY off the kitchen, it's sorta kinda maybe almost
has a mini hall. I don't think I could change the bathroom entrance to the
bedroom, because that wall is where the showerhead, sink, and toilet are. So it's really keep as is or enter from DR.

Clueless, thanks for those renderings. I like the idea of not putting in upper cabinets on that wall to let in as much light as possible. But I'm worried about lack of storage (and tons of tiling). Do you think it would look weird to have the wall cabs end at a certain point?

Here's a pic of the broom closet and bathroom door from the kitchen

1) Maybe you could use that broom closet space to recess a standard depth fridge. (The shallow pantry cabinets across from bathroom door could include space for broom closet stuff.)

2) if you are trying to minimize your budget, it would be helpful to measure how far the sink plumbing rough-in, and the range's gas and electric locations are from the window wall so folks can be mindful of those when drawing up where to place your sink and stove.

Question: do you use tha back bedroom as a bedroom or like a den? Basically, does that room need french doors?

If you're open to moving that bedroom door to the bathroom end of the room: I know I risk not making any sense, but ...I'm thinking your bedroom door would be flush with the countertop basically in the area of yourbroomcloset and then you'd enter your bathroom from the bedroom via a door next to the toilet. I'm on my phone, so I can't draw anything up--does this sound feasible to anyone?

I had trouble tweaking the Ikea planner to show what I was talking about earlier (placing the bedroom door next to the bathroom and the bathroom door off of the bedroom, next to the toilet.) This is the best I can do.

I think modifying the bathroom entrance and creating a bedroom with en suite could add a lot of value to your home.

red_argyle - How is the back deck used? Does it provide access to a back yard? I don't think you want to crowd the door if it is used often. Is it enclosed? Does much of the natural light coming into the common spaces in your apartment come through those windows and back door?

Which of the BRs is used as your master? Looks like you might have a Jack and Jill bath that guests can use, but not if it's your main bath.

Are you keeping the wood glass cabinets on the right?

If there is a backyard and or view you want to enjoy more, you could turn the back bedroom into a dining room and the dining room could become a master suite (if it has a window that meets egress.

This way of thinking is how a simple idea to install wood floors ended up I a full blown remodel of the main level of our last house. In our new house, my affliction turned a little 2 bed 1 bath that "just needed some paint" into a total gut job resulting in a sweet 3 bed 2 bath. Home improvements have a dangerous snowball effect :-)

If your hall bath has three doors, that seems like 2 too many. If you just kept the hallway door, you'd have wall space for storage.

Well, this is more drastic than you had in mind, and it's a very incomplete thought since the far right part of your floor plan was cut off and most of the rooms are missing measurements/not to scale.

However, as everybody else is saying, it's really not ideal to have both a bedroom and a bathroom directly off the kitchen. In general, you want your private areas (bedrooms, bathrooms) separated from the public areas (kitchen, living, and dining). So here is an idea for how to achieve that with minimal disruption.

1) All of the public areas (kitchen, living room, dining room) are now together to the right near the foyer, which is how it should be. All the private areas are off the hallway to the left.

2. To save money, I kept both bathrooms where they are. One is entirely untouched, and the other has very minimal reconfiguration of the fixtures (solely to add a second sink). Again, that all saves money. However, because the rooms around the bathrooms have changed, you no longer have a bathroom directly off the kitchen. Guests will use the bathroom on the right that I didn't touch. It is off the hall, which is better for privacy, but it is still near the public areas.

3) To create the two new bedrooms, only one wall has to come down. The rest is just building walls where none used to be, which is relatively cheap and very simple (no opening cans of worms).

4) Both of the new bedrooms have good closet space.

5) The master bedroom will be quite something -- large, light coming in on two sides, and the deck. It is also separated from the other bedroom by the bathroom for more privacy.

6) The new location for the kitchen is back to back with the existing bathroom. Hopefully it is possible to tie into that plumbing with minimal fuss. I didn't bother to lay out the kitchen in much detail because the floor plan was cut off, and I don't really know the space I have to work with.

In general, what I am suggesting will definitely cost more than you had in mind, but it would certainly improve both function and resale value. Also, it would be quite doable to do this in two phases. In phase one, move the kitchen and add the walls to the dining room to make it a bedroom. In phase two, expand the the bathroom on the left and remove the wall between the old kitchen and the back bedroom to create the master.

Bravo, Jillius! Those changes would make this apartment a much more pleasant, livable space.

Jillius,

That is indeed an awesome and creative reworking of the space. I am in awe. Unfortunately, it's more time, money, and work than we can do. We also really like the classic kitchen-in-back-next-to-deck, as opposed to the open living space that I know is more popular these days.

So we're really looking just to find the best layout for the kitchen.

Clueless: back deck leads down to the shared backyard. We plan to use the deck for grilling/relaxing, and going down to the backyard a fair amount with the kids (also use that to take down the trash).

The BR in between the hall bath and the LR is the master. We plan on using the other hall BR for the kids. We want to close off the entrance to the hall bath from the hall and create a closet there, but leave the opening to the kids' bedroom (partly because there's a radiator there and so the space is less usable, but also to allow the kids to go the bathroom at night easily. We'd love to have a true master but that's not possible without routing the kids to the kitchen bath).

The natural light for the kitchen comes through the back door and window, but it doesn't provide much light for the rest of the apt. The LR has an east-facing sunroom that provides decent light.

@nosoccermom - planning on getting rid of the large wooden cabinet currently on the "prep side" in the kitchen (perhaps moving it to DR)

Thanks, CinC! I am highly tempted to "open up" the space and light by your proposal of no uppers on the sink/range side. Do you think this is enough storage for a typical 4-person family? Would you tile that whole back wall?

Any issues with having the range sort of in between the fridge and sink? Seems like the only other alternative is putting the fridge at the bedroom side of that wall, but that has even more drawbacks (further from DR).

Where would put the microwave in this setup?

Lastly, do you think the "hard corner" at the back of the fridge side going to the bedroom is an issue? It's currently rounded, presumably to avoid slamming into it on the way around that corner. But maybe just round the countertop edge a bit?

Thanks again!

I like Clueless's plan. (Heck, I'm liking most of the plans for your kitchen.) One thing I especially like about it is that the DW is at the end where it can be open while working and not be in the way. In my previous home, my DW was near an end where you could do that. I can't do that now but will be able to do it after my own remodel. I can't wait. If you can immediately place items in the DW while prepping by having the door conveniently open, it keeps the kitchen cleaner and minimizes the time spent with clean-up.

However, while I think the open wall without cupboards is so much more attractive and would make for a more pleasant kitchen, I'm concerned about your storage. Since most of the work will be done between range and sink, I'm wondering if you could get by without the counter on the fridge wall side. And make it a wall of storage instead of upper/lower cabinets. I think I would keep most of them glass doors to create a feeling of spaciousness in your kitchen with some solid for your less attractive storage needs.

You might also want a few open shelves near the sink area. Even if it's just for the dishes/glassware you use daily so that things don't collect dust/grime by sitting out as they are used frequently enough.

And, yes, I do think it would be nice to have a rounded or chamfered corner there.

The Thirty-One Kitchen Design Rules, Illustrated | Homeowner Guide | Design/Buil · More Info

Ok, so based on the awesome input from the mavens here, i've redone the plan (more or less in line with CluelessinColorado's rendering, EXCEPT I chickened out and worried about storage for plates without the upper cabs on the range side...so I just put them back in.

I've obviously sacrificed "opening up" the galley -- it's now quite enclosed with cabinets. Don't know if it's possible to satisfy both storage and light-open-ness (was also worried about open shelving leaving things messy/dirty and being a problem with kids). I can add some undercabinet or even in-cabinet lighting to help out a bit.

I'm actually not sure of the cost/viability of moving the sink as far down as it is, and I don't love the awkwardness of the 12" cabinets to the left of the range. But I DO like being able to get a single slab for the--probably quartz--countertop (now under 120" to the range from the window, which is what the fabricator gave as the limit without needing seams).

Would love and appreciate feedback from the resident connoisseurs and aficionados.

Definite errors in aesthetics/functionality? Go for more than 36" of prep space between sink and range? Better to put the microwave right next to the fridge? Use glass doors on fridge side (but will that look weird with the microwave?) Get rid of the pantry and get more counter space? Redo everything? :-)

I'd consider moving the pantry (tall) cabinet to the refrigerator side and just continue the counter all the way to the left from the range. You'll increase the countertop serving area near your dining room and/or you can skooch the range down 6-12" and increase your prep area.

Secondly, I've never had an exposed range hood, but i think they look best in photos when they have space on each side. In these renderings you hood looks a bit crowded. Then again, the hood is not a focal point and no one will necessarily be looking straight on it unless they're leaning against the opposite wall. An enclosed vent in a cabinet would be a more clean look, and add a small bit of storage.

Thanks, benjesbride.

I like the idea of an enclosed vent in a cabinet, but the cabinets don't go up to the ceiling, so I'm not sure how to handle that without hanging them VERY high off the counter or else adding small box cabs to the ceiling on top, which has got to be pricey (esp since we plan to do non-ikea doors).

I'm actually not sure I can scoot the range down much without the range and fridge doors competing in my small aisle - right?

Here's a birds-eye shot

I don't know much about insert exhausts but can't they be vented out the wall?

Sorry, I should have specified: the hood will have to be vented across the ceiling, across the kitchen and adjacent room, out to an external wall that runs parallel with the one it sits on. I can't vent it to the external wall perpendicular to it because it would a) run against the joists, so would need a soffit and b) even if we wanted to build a new, smaller soffit, the window is in the way, and above the window is a large beam that doesn't allow us to open up the necessary space for the vent.

Oh.... Wish you had an easier route.

I posted during your first round of discussions - my finished kitchen has a layout fairly similar to what you're considering. It's a great work triangle for me, even though ours is a corridor galley with a ton of through traffic. Ours was only about 91" wide, so we recessed a CD fridge about 15" and opted for reduced depth lowers on that side. That gave us a 48" aisle which is perfect. We also hung a GE spacesaver microwave on that side, which is incredibly functional. We have uppers on both sides and it doesn't feel closed in at all, perhaps because we opened one narrow end to another room - so the overall difference in terms of openness was already pretty dramatic.

Since you asked, I'd make one suggestion - if you can swing 48" between the sink and range, you'll be even happier. I have 36" now, and it's fine, especially since I have an overly large sink with a cutting board on top and I prep over the sink. But if I could have eked another 12" out, I would have done it in a heartbeat (it wasn't possible for me due to a support post for a load-bearing wall that was opened.)

thanks, smalloldhouse, that is not something i'd considered; i'd love to open the aisle with a shallower base on that side and we COULD recess the fridge additional 10+"; but alas we are using ikea cabinets and they only offer 24" base.

i am trying to determine how we can swing some extra prep space there; but I'm not sure how. Just moving the range down would place the it right into the door swing space for the fridge, which doesn't seem like a good idea.

Do you anticipate having the oven open or someone standing at the stove often enough that it would be a conflict with opening the fridge? I guess with our small kitchens we have to prioritize and compromise. I would choose a wider prep space over not being able to open the oven and the fridge at the same time. I have a narrow galley (7.5' x 12.5') and I compromised by having my DW across from the range; the alternate location was less desirable to me. The big appliance conflict that's a no-no (to me) is DW/fridge, range/fridge? not as much.

Hmmm...

I guess you're right - it's perhaps not that big a deal to not be able to open the oven and fridge at same time.

BUT what about if you're just cooking at the stove - no-one can get something out of the fridge without you having to move over. That seems like a bigger and much more common inconvenience.

If you stand at the stove a lot, then that would be a big conflict. This renovation of ours has gone on long enough and I haven't really had a complete kitchen since last May/June, I can't honestly remember how often I stand at the stove top :-)

I don't know if it helps with the recess suggestion--you'd lose storage space too, but Ikea has 15" deep base cabinets now.

What are you going to do with the 22" area next to the DW? Any chance of getting a sleeker radiator?

Sena - I've been investigating options for the radiator but haven't made much progress yet. One option is to try to hack a cabinet around it and instead of a door, have a metal radiator cover grate - in theory, matching the cabinets for the rest of the kitchen in color.

The area next to the DW - any ideas? current thinking is to either just fill with panel (something needs to hold up the counter if it goes all the way to the window, I presume), or add slim vertical shelves (for things like cookbooks, or cutting boards--though maybe we wouldn't want

That whole end next to the window and radiator is a problem both for uppers and lowers.

That's the biggest headache right now - along with what do to about the range hood and the upper cabinets that don't reach the ceiling.

Then there are minor ones, like where to put the microwave, whether we should try for some glass doors somewhere, and whether it would be better to skip the pantry and just run the counter all the way, and put two 36" cabs on the near wall where the pantry is now.